Amateur Poker Association & Tour
Poker Forum => Strategy => Topic started by: Chipaccrual on January 05, 2009, 11:44:58 AM
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If someone can explain what "mentor13" is thinking by this move, I would be very grateful. Apart from the fact he wins the pot.
I think my play was correct. The raise, then re-raise all-in to isolate the short stacks all-in, but why, why, why does he then call off nearly half his stack.
We are nearly two hours in, 285 of 747 left, paying top 108.
Any thoughts ?
PokerStars Game #23591406386: Tournament #131675642, $30+$3 Hold'em No Limit - Level VI (100/200) - 2009/01/05 11:37:12 GMT [2009/01/05 6:37:12 ET]
Table "131675642 62" 9-max Seat #4 is the button
Seat 1: Chipaccrual (5610 in chips)
Seat 2: Drewwad (5372 in chips)
Seat 3: marcol1969 (7575 in chips)
Seat 4: 170nic (5100 in chips)
Seat 5: mentor13 (12645 in chips)
Seat 6: elgordo420 (3438 in chips)
Seat 7: madpeet (6955 in chips)
Seat 8: skyag (4564 in chips)
Seat 9: "&bidouace" (7055 in chips)
mentor13: posts small blind 100
elgordo420: posts big blind 200
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Chipaccrual [ kc kh]
madpeet: folds
skyag: folds
"&bidouace": folds
Chipaccrual: raises 400 to 600
Drewwad: folds
marcol1969: folds
170nic: folds
mentor13: calls 500
elgordo420: raises 2838 to 3438 and is all-in
Chipaccrual: raises 2172 to 5610 and is all-in
mentor13: calls 5010
*** FLOP *** [7s 7c 8d]
*** TURN *** [7s 7c 8d] [4d]
*** RIVER *** [7s 7c 8d 4d] [ad]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
mentor13: shows [ac qd] (two pair, Aces and Sevens)
Chipaccrual: shows [kc kh] (two pair, Kings and Sevens)
mentor13 collected 4344 from side pot
elgordo420: shows [6h 6c] (two pair, Sevens and Sixes)
mentor13 collected 10314 from main pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 14658 Main pot 10314. Side pot 4344. | Rake 0
Board [7s 7c 8d 4d ad]
Seat 1: Chipaccrual showed [kc kh] and lost with two pair, Kings and Sevens
Seat 2: Drewwad folded before Flop (didn"t bet)
Seat 3: marcol1969 folded before Flop (didn"t bet)
Seat 4: 170nic (button) folded before Flop (didn"t bet)
Seat 5: mentor13 (small blind) showed [ac qd] and won (14658) with two pair, Aces and Sevens
Seat 6: elgordo420 (big blind) showed [6h 6c] and lost with two pair, Sevens and Sixes
Seat 7: madpeet folded before Flop (didn"t bet)
Seat 8: skyag folded before Flop (didn"t bet)
Seat 9: "&bidouace" folded before Flop (didn"t bet)
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its pretty terrible but you will get much worse calls in most online tournaments.
As long as your play is fine i wouldn"t get too hung up on the play of villain.
just unlucky on your part
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It"s because he doesn"t realise there"s a difference between being up against one player and being up against more than one.
Apart from the fact that obv. it makes it more likely that one of you might have AK, AA or KK I suspect his main problem is that he thinks:
AQ v Underpair = coinflip
therefore
AQ v 2 underpairs = coinflip
and poss.
AQ v Ax (
Even this might be crediting him with too much, he may have just thought: all in, I have AQ = call
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He had an ace.
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He had an ace.
This is the shorter version of my post
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He had an ace.
Ah, another quality post by the no nonsense, less technical mind of Kinfishi ;D
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Don"t get upset when someone calls with AQ against your KK - these are the situations and donkey moves you are hoping for, and which in the long run will win you money...... of course your dominating hand will not win every time though - just gotta grin, congratulate the fish on his excellent play, and move on to the next one.
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Don"t get upset when someone calls with AQ against your KK - these are the situations and donkey moves you are hoping for, and which in the long run will win you money...... of course your dominating hand will not win every time though - just gotta grin, congratulate the fish on his excellent play, and move on to the next one.
That"s what I said.
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Just had a double up on another tourney. Same situation, different result.
Is that what they call variance ?
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Just had a double up on another tourney. Same situation, different result.
Is that what they call variance ?
I think it"s called karma. Or it might be korma - I get confused.
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Prizes Profit ROI ABI AFS R/A ITM ITM
$309 <$0 -69% $11 800 9% 6/87 7%
mentor13 - looking at his stats, all round donkey beginner is my guess ;D
out of interest Chipaccrual what have you shown down lately? or have you been active without any cards shown?
my guess though mentor13 is a poor player ;D [just plays his cards]
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That was my feeling Noble. Can"t remember showing down much on that table. Anything shown would have been premium.
Will have to check hand history. Certainly no bluffs shown.
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Its annoying, when after 2 hours, you still have players that bad still in the tourney. But nonetheless, be grateful for the call and pray that this guy sucked out a few more times and cashed in this. That way he"ll be back and you can feed off him next time
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just thought i might suggest what your image was as elgordo420 is a ok player at this
type of buy in level..[just wondered if he thought he could push you off,he multi tables a lot,so i"m guessing he had ace hud]
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It probably is just an iffy move, but a lot depends on how you"ve played up to this point. If for instance you"ve raised three or four times each orbit and have shoved on more than one occasion when faced with a short stack all in, this makes a huge difference to the range he could put you on and the play isn"t anywhere near as bad.
I don"t think a flat call from you would have been the worst play in the world. If you were reraised you"d obviously have had to call anyway. If the villain just called behind you and saw that flop, I think you could easily have shoved the rest of your chips in safe in the knowledge that he hadn"t hit.
I don"t think its ever possible to say with complete certainty that any play is bad without knowledge of what has happened prior to the hand is question. If you had been playing wild and recklessly (suspect this was not the case) calling with Ace/Queen would have been entirely reasonable.
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Prizes Profit ROI ABI AFS R/A ITM ITM
$309 <$0 -69% $11 800 9% 6/87 7%
mentor13 - looking at his stats, all round donkey beginner is my guess ;D
Noble, presume these stats are taken from OPR ?
Do you check the stats of the players at your table whilst you are playing to supplement information you pick up as you are playing ? (if you know what I mean...)
Jacko
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Prizes Profit ROI ABI AFS R/A ITM ITM
$309 <$0 -69% $11 800 9% 6/87 7%
mentor13 - looking at his stats, all round donkey beginner is my guess ;D
Noble, presume these stats are taken from OPR ?
Do you check the stats of the players at your table whilst you are playing to supplement information you pick up as you are playing ? (if you know what I mean...)
Jacko
with unknowns yes, i only use them as a rough guide to ability though...
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Part of his call will be the way he has also played the hand. He may assign you a wider range for re shoving to isolate so perhaps thinks he is in front or racing.
U open, he flats now there"s a squeeze behind- you could be iso shoving with KQ, AJ etc etc etc.
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I think he is bluffing with a call.
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I think the thread title is okay for this one. I just laughed.
$20k gtd. $30 buyin. 2 hours in. 226 of 693 starters left. Paying top 99. This happens.
PokerStars Game #23887331061: Tournament #132775658, $30+$3 Hold'em No Limit - Level VII (125/250) - 2009/01/14 11:50:19 GMT [2009/01/14 6:50:19 ET]
Table "132775658 42" 9-max Seat #2 is the button
Seat 1: iarba7frunze (17995 in chips)
Seat 2: Mr.Raael (2195 in chips)
Seat 3: StoyanB (6122 in chips)
Seat 4: Chipaccrual (3795 in chips)
Seat 5: Ratisbone (8535 in chips)
Seat 6: 8kenzo8 (10555 in chips)
Seat 7: Vlatace (3495 in chips)
Seat 8: dallasgamblr (3025 in chips)
Seat 9: 400plus (17545 in chips)
iarba7frunze: posts the ante 25
Mr.Raael: posts the ante 25
StoyanB: posts the ante 25
Chipaccrual: posts the ante 25
Ratisbone: posts the ante 25
8kenzo8: posts the ante 25
Vlatace: posts the ante 25
dallasgamblr: posts the ante 25
400plus: posts the ante 25
StoyanB: posts small blind 125
Chipaccrual: posts big blind 250
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Chipaccrual [ks ac]
Ratisbone: folds
8kenzo8: folds
Vlatace: folds
dallasgamblr: folds
400plus: folds
iarba7frunze: folds
Mr.Raael: folds
StoyanB: raises 5847 to 6097 and is all-in
Chipaccrual: calls 3520 and is all-in
Uncalled bet (2327) returned to StoyanB
*** FLOP *** [ :3c: :3h: js]
*** TURN *** [ :3c: :3h: js] [ad]
*** RIVER *** [ :3c: :3h: js ad] [:2s:]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
StoyanB: shows [:3s: 8s] (three of a kind, Threes)
Chipaccrual: shows [ks ac] (two pair, Aces and Threes)
iarba7frunze said, "lol"
Chipaccrual said, "ffs"
StoyanB collected 7765 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 7765 | Rake 0
Board [ :3c: :3h: js ad :2s:]
Seat 1: iarba7frunze folded before Flop (didn"t bet)
Seat 2: Mr.Raael (button) folded before Flop (didn"t bet)
Seat 3: StoyanB (small blind) showed [:3s: 8s] and won (7765) with three of a kind, Threes
Seat 4: Chipaccrual (big blind) showed [ks ac] and lost with two pair, Aces and Threes
Seat 5: Ratisbone folded before Flop (didn"t bet)
Seat 6: 8kenzo8 folded before Flop (didn"t bet)
Seat 7: Vlatace folded before Flop (didn"t bet)
Seat 8: dallasgamblr folded before Flop (didn"t bet)
Seat 9: 400plus folded before Flop (didn"t bet)
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StoynB is obviously trying to steal the blinds and antes
if you didnt have a hand you couldnt call
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Why did you hand change to pocket kings? I"d ask for a redeal!
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Why did you hand change to pocket kings? I"d ask for a redeal!
lol
I know how much everyone likes to see the pretty card graphics, trouble is the Stars hand detail is slightly different to the APAT forum, so have to change capitals etc and am normally rushing it, so hence the slight mistake. The hand was definitely ks ac .
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StoynB is obviously trying to steal the blinds and antes
if you didnt have a hand you couldnt call
Not debating that, but the pot stood at 600. Slight overkill really. Not got an issue with the hand. The cards were live and you take your chances.
If it was in the first hour of a tourney, then you can understand it a bit, but two hours in and to shove like that seems really bad play, or is that normal ?
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" Ours not to reason why" Cos there can"t have beeb much thought there. Okay steal the B and A, but if you run into a hand, and risk your whole stack, crazy! By the way what does ffs mean? I"m not joking, I really don"t know!
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Urban Dictionary ftw
ffs (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=ffs)
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ffs = well who"d have thought it, how annoying.
Wouldn"t have said it if the other guy hadn"t rattled my cage with a "lol"
;D
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StoynB is obviously trying to steal the blinds and antes
if you didnt have a hand you couldnt call
Not debating that, but the pot stood at 600. Slight overkill really. Not got an issue with the hand. The cards were live and you take your chances.
If it was in the first hour of a tourney, then you can understand it a bit, but two hours in and to shove like that seems really bad play, or is that normal ?
oh i agree with you 100% - overkill preflop and no need - bad play for the stack size and betting 6k (well your 4k to win 750 is ludicrious (sp))
if it was me i"d have just raised it 3X BB and see where i stood then
if im called then i have another big decision on the flop - if im re-raised im out of there
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ok here are my thoughts ;D i gotta be quick so forgive me as it is nearly time for the dogs to have there walk :)
believe it or not this move is happening a lot in high buy in mtts by players who understand sng push/fold poker and whether or not it is +ev or -ev..As far as i know it was eric haber - sheets and sorrel mizzi - Imper1um/zangbezan24 who started it.
They work out how often you will call if they shove to think if it is +ev or not,often doing this when the antes are in play especially if they think there opponent is tight.
Now i AM NOT saying this guy did it knowing the reason behind it,but he may of saw some others doing it and is just copying without knowing the maths or the concept behind it [more than likely]
i will post the maths out of interest later,as if any of you come across a good sng/mtt player in a high buy in mtt doing this you"ll be able to call wider than what they are expecting :)
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Aaaah, got it now. Doh! Thanks Jon.
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ok here are my thoughts ;D i gotta be quick so forgive me as it is nearly time for the dogs to have there walk :)
believe it or not this move is happening a lot in high buy in mtts by players who understand sng push/fold poker and whether or not it is +ev or -ev..As far as i know it was eric haber - sheets and sorrel mizzi - Imper1um/zangbezan24 who started it.
They work out how often you will call if they shove to think if it is +ev or not,often doing this when the antes are in play especially if they think there opponent is tight.
Now i AM NOT saying this guy did it knowing the reason behind it,but he may of saw some others doing it and is just copying without knowing the maths or the concept behind it [more than likely]
i will post the maths out of interest later,as if any of you come across a good sng/mtt player in a high buy in mtt doing this you"ll be able to call wider than what they are expecting :)
Happened to me in a big live tournament. Day 2 and down to about 80 runners from 400, pays 10%.
I"m getting short and have been in push or fold mode for a good few hours, without really getting anywhere!
Player to my right is the chip leader on the table, and whenever it was folded round to him on the button or SB he would shove with ATC.
Put me in a hell of a situation. I know he has nothing, but if I call I"m putting my tournament life on the line. I"d rather be the first in and not calling - but not getting the opportunity too often.
Then I"m in the BB it"s folded round to him (his name was Mycock which has no bearing on the hand, but is amusing) - he shoves, and I look down at ac kc. Obviously I"m probably favourite here and I call knowing that I"m going to need some luck.
He had 75o. So I was 65/35 favourite. 9c :3h: 6d board, and I"m getting out of my seat. Ten on the turn and I"m thinking that I just might hang on.....7 on the river.
The thing is, even if I won that pot and doubled up, Mycock would have still made enough from the previous steals and pushes to cover his loss. It"s an interesting strategy for a big stack and difficult to exploit if you"re short and sat immediately to his left.
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The flaw to this strategy is that it does not work at all for lower buy-in cos you get called by all sorts all the time and then you are just playing bingo.
Its a levels on levels thing innit!! You know hes got nothing, but he knows you know, so maybe he has.............. ???
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Happened to me in a big live tournament.
It was EPT Copenhagen but Dan is too modest to mention this
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10% call range assigned for chipaccrual - 88+,A9s+,KTs+,QTs+,AJo+,KQo
That means that when we push, he is going to fold 90% of the time, and we will win the blinds and antes.
Villain has the mighty 8s :3s: and his equity is 30% against chipaccruals range
90% of the time villain wins 600 chips
of the 10% that he is called he will win 3 times[30%] and lose 7 times[70%]
to work out the whether or not it is +EV or not , we work out 3 things......
WIN if chipaccrual folds - 0.90*600 [blinds+antes] = 540
of the 10% that chipaccrual calls and villain wins [600+3520 chipaccruals stack=4120]
WIN if chipaccrual calls - 0.10*0.30*4120 = 123.60 [the 0.30 is the %30 equity]
villain is going to lose 70% so that works out like -
LOSE if chipaccrual calls - 0.10*0.70*-4120 = -288
to work out the EV we combine the 3 results -
540+123.60-288 = 375.6 it is a positive number +EV so believe it or not it is a good shove in mathematical theory.
The villain will have 9.3bb left if he loses 7% of the time or increases his stack 90% of the time by 10% if chipaccrual folds or increases his stack by 60% 93% of the time if called and wins [sucks out ;D]
thats the maths anyhows............if based on chipaccrual being tight :P
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The flaw to this strategy is that it does not work at all for lower buy-in cos you get called by all sorts all the time and then you are just playing bingo.
Its a levels on levels thing innit!! You know hes got nothing, but he knows you know, so maybe he has.............. ???
in lower buy ins you have to factor in wider call ranges yes,but it can still work well if used on tight players or you have chips to burn on short stacks, but i"d use it sparingly as all they see is a complete maniac ;D
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That means that when we push, he is going to fold 90% of the time, and we will win the blinds and antes.
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It is +EV but I suspect it is still bad on account of the fact that I don"t think you need to push to get him to fold 90% of the time.
If a 5 x big blind raise will make him fold 90% of the time (or 3 x make him fold 85% etc) then you will lose less when you"re not stealing. Therefore making not shoving more +EV than shoving.
This makes sense doesn"t it?
???
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That means that when we push, he is going to fold 90% of the time, and we will win the blinds and antes.
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It is +EV but I suspect it is still bad on account of the fact that I don"t think you need to push to get him to fold 90% of the time.
If a 5 x big blind raise will make him fold 90% of the time (or 3 x make him fold 85% etc) then you will lose less when you"re not stealing. Therefore making not shoving more +EV than shoving.
This makes sense doesn"t it?
???
to make it +EV you need to put chipaccrual all in pre-flop...if you raise and chipaccrual only calls you still need to bet enough to put chipaccrual all in and if he were to fold for some reason you are actually losing value..then figures wise it is just about a -EV move that way.
plus as kinboshi said it is pretty hard to combat , if you raise say 3or4x then chipaccrual goes all in you haven"t got the correct odds to call with 83ss,you can counter a sb raiser by putting them to the test by going all in but if the sb just shoves pre you are pretty well f*c*ed.
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10% call range assigned for chipaccrual - 88+,A9s+,KTs+,QTs+,AJo+,KQo
I"m guessing it is Stove that gives you this range if you ask for top 10%? Just found it curious that this essentially rates QTs/QJs as a better hand than KJo....?
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10% call range assigned for chipaccrual - 88+,A9s+,KTs+,QTs+,AJo+,KQo
I"m guessing it is Stove that gives you this range if you ask for top 10%? Just found it curious that this essentially rates QTs/QJs as a better hand than KJo....?
go to pokerstove home page tony the answer to that is there,to say it is complex is putting it mildly :) it works though ;D
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The general answer is the extra chances you get for straights and flushes outweigh the higher card value.
I assume.
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10% call range assigned for chipaccrual - 88+,A9s+,KTs+,QTs+,AJo+,KQo
I"m guessing it is Stove that gives you this range if you ask for top 10%? Just found it curious that this essentially rates QTs/QJs as a better hand than KJo....?
http://web.archive.org/web/20070807120303/http://www.cs.cmu.edu/People/mummert/poker/
hopefully this will answer your question,from a -+ev point of view sklansky and others have over time worked out hand groupings - KJo is a group 5 whereas QJs is
a 3 and QTs is a 4
if you press the statistics based on real play link you find KJo is rated even lower.
http://www.pokerroom.com/poker/poker-school/ev-stats/total-stats-by-card/