Amateur Poker Association & Tour
Poker Forum => General Discussion => Topic started by: BOINGBLITZ on January 16, 2009, 00:06:38 AM
-
It looks from the amount of people in the online satellites this week and also the numerous people looking for seats that APAT has become a MONSTER this season.
Is it not time to start considering having two day-ones now to accomodate all interested parties ??
Maybe they could be situated at 2 seperate venues on the Saturday e.g. Birmingham and Walsall for the first one ??
Or if that is not possible then why not make online qualification MANDATORY, having just one mass tourney spawning 200 qualifiers ??
Anythings got to be better than this pot-luck as it stands now surely ??
-
Hopefully the worlds at DTD will have two starting days...
-
It looks from the amount of people in the online satellites this week and also the numerous people looking for seats that APAT has become a MONSTER this season.
Is it not time to start considering having two day-ones now to accomodate all interested parties ??
Maybe they could be situated at 2 seperate venues on the Saturday e.g. Birmingham and Walsall for the first one ??
Or if that is not possible then why not make online qualification MANDATORY, having just one mass tourney spawning 200 qualifiers ??
Anythings got to be better than this pot-luck as it stands now surely ??
Apart from the fact that not everyone can play online - the tourny you"re suggesting sounds like the very definition of pot luck. It"s a bummer people miss out through the clickfest, but this conversation has been had many times and is really the fairest way to allocate seats.
-
1. You can"t have 2 starting days unless you want to exclude people who can"t take time off work (obv. it"s easier for the most prestigious events like the World)
2. You can"t have online qualification only unless you want to exclude everybody who doesn"t play online.
3. Multi venue tournaments don"t really work. The first WSOPe was run as well as it would be possible to do for a multi venue event and it still wasn"t "ideal"
-
1. You can"t have 2 starting days unless you want to exclude people who can"t take time off work (obv. it"s easier for the most prestigious events like the World)
2. You can"t have online qualification only unless you want to exclude everybody who doesn"t play online.
3. Multi venue tournaments don"t really work. The first WSOPe was run as well as it would be possible to do for a multi venue event and it still wasn"t "ideal"
1. I disagree. Not everybody works and I"m sure some people would be able to play on a Friday. People want APAT seats that much I reckon there would be a good enough demand for a Friday Day 1. Not only that, but how many live events are there - and how many Bank Holiday weekends are there? Can have 2 Day 1"s then...
2 + 3. Agreed!
-
Perhaps it"s a question of whether the venues can accommodate two day 1"s rather than a sufficient demand for seats.
-
1. You can"t have 2 starting days unless you want to exclude people who can"t take time off work (obv. it"s easier for the most prestigious events like the World)
2. You can"t have online qualification only unless you want to exclude everybody who doesn"t play online.
3. Multi venue tournaments don"t really work. The first WSOPe was run as well as it would be possible to do for a multi venue event and it still wasn"t "ideal"
1. I disagree. Not everybody works and I"m sure some people would be able to play on a Friday. People want APAT seats that much I reckon there would be a good enough demand for a Friday Day 1. Not only that, but how many live events are there - and how many Bank Holiday weekends are there? Can have 2 Day 1"s then...
2 + 3. Agreed!
I didn"t say that 2 day ones wouldn"t still get enough demand.
"Not everybody works"
"some people would be able to play on a Friday"
Are the people who could play - my objection was more to do with the people who couldn"t.
NB: I could always take the Friday off so I could always participate if there were 2 day ones - but I don"t think there should be (apart from the most prestigious events).
-
1. You can"t have 2 starting days unless you want to exclude people who can"t take time off work (obv. it"s easier for the most prestigious events like the World)
2. You can"t have online qualification only unless you want to exclude everybody who doesn"t play online.
3. Multi venue tournaments don"t really work. The first WSOPe was run as well as it would be possible to do for a multi venue event and it still wasn"t "ideal"
1. I disagree. Not everybody works and I"m sure some people would be able to play on a Friday. People want APAT seats that much I reckon there would be a good enough demand for a Friday Day 1. Not only that, but how many live events are there - and how many Bank Holiday weekends are there? Can have 2 Day 1"s then...
2 + 3. Agreed!
I didn"t say that 2 day ones wouldn"t still get enough demand.
"Not everybody works"
"some people would be able to play on a Friday"
Are the people who could play - my objection was more to do with the people who couldn"t.
NB: I could always take the Friday off so I could always participate if there were 2 day ones - but I don"t think there should be (apart from the most prestigious events).
I see where you"re coming from MW, but I can see people who can play Friday choosing it for 2 main reasons:
1. If they bust out they"ve got the whole weekend to themselves.
2. If they make day 2 (and I assume everyone returning on Day 2 would get paid), then they"re guaranteed money AND they get a day"s break.
Plus, there"s more space in Day 1B for people who cant play Day 1A.
-
What will happen when all the regulars start to miss out or the big "name" players start to miss out due to sheer weight of numbers ??
My guess is that wont happen though.
-
What will happen when all the regulars start to miss out or the big "name" players start to miss out due to sheer weight of numbers ??
My guess is that wont happen though.
Ha what? Who are you referring to? My name"s quite big I suppose - 21 letters including middle name. I"ve missed a few tournies already though.
I think you"re a bit wide of the mark mate if you"re working under the assumption that certain players have seats reserved for them. It is just a first come first served deal.
-
What will happen when all the regulars start to miss out or the big "name" players start to miss out due to sheer weight of numbers ??
My guess is that wont happen though.
Ha what? Who are you referring to? My name"s quite big I suppose - 21 letters including middle name. I"ve missed a few tournies already though.
I think you"re a bit wide of the mark mate if you"re working under the assumption that certain players have seats reserved for them. It is just a first come first served deal.
+1
I have sat here frantically typing like everyone else this evening. And that was after spending $48.50 trying to satellite in. Trust me, it cannot be anymore first come first served.
-
I think its an unfair comment to presume that APAT's "biggest" or most regular players are automatically exempt from having to book themselves a seat. This is simply not true. Every single player on the list of direct buy-ins got in the same way you attempted to. Maybe next time you"ll get in and others on that list won"t. There is no favourism though, never has and never will. I understand your frustration though at not getting a seat, but I assure you that it is fair and everyone is having to do the same thing in the clickfest to buy their seat.
As for the two day 1s, I think it would work for the big events, like it did at the European event I played in season 1 at Luton, but I"m not so sure for every single national.
Anyway, unlucky on not getting in, I understand it"s frustrating, but keep at it and keep trying, you"ll get your seat at one of these!
-
I know you are right, but can something not be done by APAT about the fact that VISA does not appear as a means of debit-card payment ?
It"s THAT confusion that cost me a seat but at least I haven"t pre-booked flights to Walsall......as it is...well.....down the road !!
Would it hurt to get in touch with the payment processors ??
-
Dunno mate but at least now you know its Delta for the next one. Keep playing the online series and keep trying the clickfest and I"m sure we"ll see you at one of these events soon!
-
cheers mate......appreciate it
-
I"m guessing two day ones for the Worlds at DTD, and as a one off that"s a great idea - I shall take the Friday off work. But to have two day ones for all Nationals - no chance!! With a large family who rely on me taking my hols at Chistmas and in the summer, it would hardly be fair for me to take so many days off to play poker!! We"re amateurs, not pro"s... work comes first for me.
Also agree that the clickfest, although I hate it, has to stay to give the "live only" players an option. Perhaps it could be changed to an early registration system where everyone who wants a seat has to send an email to register their interest by a certain date..... then the satellites are played, and all qualifiers are crossed off the registration list. Those that are left then go into a hat and are drawn out, and the order that they are drawn out in dictates their position in the virtual queue..... now the tickets are sold to the front of the queue, and people have so many days to make their purchase.... if someone misses their purchase, or changes their mind, they drop off the queue, and the next person in the queue now has the offer. Still a lottery, but possibly fairer than clickfest?
-
I think the size that APAT has grown to (and it"s growing more and more by the day) - there are just going to be even more people disappointed with every event that rolls around. I really do think that two starting days really needs to be considered.
For people saying it should only be reserved for prestigious events or whatever I would say - EVERY single APAT event is prestigious in my and a lot of people"s opinions. There are only 7 events in the season (exlcuding team event), that is pretty prestigious in my eyes, to have the chance to be one of only 7 champions each season.
I for one would happily get the day off on a Friday to play in an APAT event. And I honestly think if the option of two starting days was put out as an option most people would be happy and it would only be a small minority grumbling...
-
Also agree that the clickfest, although I hate it, has to stay to give the "live only" players an option. Perhaps it could be changed to an early registration system where everyone who wants a seat has to send an email to register their interest by a certain date..... then the satellites are played, and all qualifiers are crossed off the registration list. Those that are left then go into a hat and are drawn out, and th order that they are drawn out in dictates their position in the virtual queue..... now the tickets are sold to the front of the queue, and people have so many days to make their purchase.... if someone misses their purchase, or changes their mind, they drop off the queue, and the next person in the queue now has the offer. Still a lottery, but possibly fairer than clickfest?
IMHO... This is the worst idea ever and fortunately was scrapped after Season 1, Event 1.
If you put names in a hat, it is entirely possible that you (anyone) may never get drawn out. I can see that it may seem fairer to a regular online player, who feels confident of getting a seat through a satellite and would likely only need the draw as a back-up. But the only way to make a random draw appear totally random, is to rig it!!
-
Also agree that the clickfest, although I hate it, has to stay to give the "live only" players an option. Perhaps it could be changed to an early registration system where everyone who wants a seat has to send an email to register their interest by a certain date..... then the satellites are played, and all qualifiers are crossed off the registration list. Those that are left then go into a hat and are drawn out, and th order that they are drawn out in dictates their position in the virtual queue..... now the tickets are sold to the front of the queue, and people have so many days to make their purchase.... if someone misses their purchase, or changes their mind, they drop off the queue, and the next person in the queue now has the offer. Still a lottery, but possibly fairer than clickfest?
IMHO... This is the worst idea ever and fortunately was scrapped after Season 1, Event 1.
If you put names in a hat, it is entirely possible that you (anyone) may never get drawn out. I can see that it may seem fairer to a regular online player, who feels confident of getting a seat through a satellite and would likely only need the draw as a back-up. But the only way to make a random draw appear totally random, is to rig it!!
Agree, I don"t think the draw option is a good idea at all - Clickfest is as fair as you"ll get at the moment...
-
But the only way to make a random draw appear totally random, is to rig it!!
this
-
I also think two day 1s would be worth a try... why is the fact that "we are amatuers, we can"t all get a day off work" an issue? We don"t all need to take a day of work... only those who choose to play Friday have to.
I would suggest that the best way to work it would be to put the Friday (day 1a) seats on sale first, with the Saturday (day 1b) seats going on sale a couple of days later, via the same click-fest as we now have.
This way those that are able to play Friday and want to ensure they get a seat, have the option first... This should leave less pressure on places, for Saturday, for everyone else.
Anyone who can"t / doesn"t want to play Friday will not be penalised for being a slave to the man / considerate family man... on the contary, they will have more chance of getting into the tournament.
I think arranging events around Bank Holidays to accomodate two day 1s is a bad idea due to travel and accomodation issues.
-
I also think two day 1s would be worth a try... why is the fact that "we are amatuers, we can"t all get a day off work" an issue? We don"t all need to take a day of work... only those who choose to play Friday have to.
I would suggest that the best way to work it would be to put the Friday (day 1a) seats on sale first, with the Saturday (day 1b) seats going on sale a couple of days later, via the same click-fest as we now have.
This way those that are able to play Friday and want to ensure they get a seat, have the option first... This should leave less pressure on places, for Saturday, for everyone else.
Anyone who can"t / doesn"t want to play Friday will not be penalised for being a slave to the man / considerate family man... on the contary, they will have more chance of getting into the tournament.
I think arranging events around Bank Holidays to accomodate two day 1s is a bad idea due to travel and accomodation issues.
If there were 2 day ones this seems like a sensible option. With Satellite winners being able to choose what day they want.
-
Also agree that the clickfest, although I hate it, has to stay to give the "live only" players an option. Perhaps it could be changed to an early registration system where everyone who wants a seat has to send an email to register their interest by a certain date..... then the satellites are played, and all qualifiers are crossed off the registration list. Those that are left then go into a hat and are drawn out, and th order that they are drawn out in dictates their position in the virtual queue..... now the tickets are sold to the front of the queue, and people have so many days to make their purchase.... if someone misses their purchase, or changes their mind, they drop off the queue, and the next person in the queue now has the offer. Still a lottery, but possibly fairer than clickfest?
IMHO... This is the worst idea ever and fortunately was scrapped after Season 1, Event 1.
If you put names in a hat, it is entirely possible that you (anyone) may never get drawn out. I can see that it may seem fairer to a regular online player, who feels confident of getting a seat through a satellite and would likely only need the draw as a back-up. But the only way to make a random draw appear totally random, is to rig it!!
Agree, I don"t think the draw option is a good idea at all - Clickfest is as fair as you"ll get at the moment...
Another man like me?... Never won a bean in a raffle!!! :"(
-
I also think two day 1s would be worth a try... why is the fact that "we are amatuers, we can"t all get a day off work" an issue? We don"t all need to take a day of work... only those who choose to play Friday have to.
I would suggest that the best way to work it would be to put the Friday (day 1a) seats on sale first, with the Saturday (day 1b) seats going on sale a couple of days later, via the same click-fest as we now have.
This way those that are able to play Friday and want to ensure they get a seat, have the option first... This should leave less pressure on places, for Saturday, for everyone else.
Anyone who can"t / doesn"t want to play Friday will not be penalised for being a slave to the man / considerate family man... on the contary, they will have more chance of getting into the tournament.
I think arranging events around Bank Holidays to accomodate two day 1s is a bad idea due to travel and accomodation issues.
RioRodent for President!
-
I also think two day 1s would be worth a try... why is the fact that "we are amatuers, we can"t all get a day off work" an issue? We don"t all need to take a day of work... only those who choose to play Friday have to.
I would suggest that the best way to work it would be to put the Friday (day 1a) seats on sale first, with the Saturday (day 1b) seats going on sale a couple of days later, via the same click-fest as we now have.
This way those that are able to play Friday and want to ensure they get a seat, have the option first... This should leave less pressure on places, for Saturday, for everyone else.
Anyone who can"t / doesn"t want to play Friday will not be penalised for being a slave to the man / considerate family man... on the contary, they will have more chance of getting into the tournament.
I think arranging events around Bank Holidays to accomodate two day 1s is a bad idea due to travel and accomodation issues.
RioRodent for President!
How much does it pay?
-
I also think two day 1s would be worth a try... why is the fact that "we are amatuers, we can"t all get a day off work" an issue? We don"t all need to take a day of work... only those who choose to play Friday have to.
I would suggest that the best way to work it would be to put the Friday (day 1a) seats on sale first, with the Saturday (day 1b) seats going on sale a couple of days later, via the same click-fest as we now have.
This way those that are able to play Friday and want to ensure they get a seat, have the option first... This should leave less pressure on places, for Saturday, for everyone else.
Anyone who can"t / doesn"t want to play Friday will not be penalised for being a slave to the man / considerate family man... on the contary, they will have more chance of getting into the tournament.
I think arranging events around Bank Holidays to accomodate two day 1s is a bad idea due to travel and accomodation issues.
RioRodent for President!
How much does it pay?
Unfortunately due to the economic downturn there"s no money in the budget for the President but you would be guarenteed an extra big clap next time you got knocked out at a national OR if you manage to take a national down there will be a Curly Wurly thrown in on top of the GUKPT Seat - how"s that for added value?
-
If we start having two day one's as the norm, you have to think about the people running APAT they also will have to be there on the Friday. Don't forget that they have family's/jobs to and I believe they are doing this for free.
I was going to put what Kingboshi said (below) but did not have the time.
-
-
Those who accuse Des or any of the other organisers of impropriety need to get a grip. If they did the same at a casino and threw around unfounded accusations like that, they"d probably end up banned. They"re probably the same people who complain about online poker being rigged against them, and that the police have a thing against them, and that life just isn"t fair because someone else has something they want. Pathetic.
^ This ^
Also if the reason for not having two day one"s is due to Des and Co"s own family/work commitments etc then there"s really no debate to be had - especially if Des isn"t being paid for taking the time out to run APAT - I always assumed he got paid as part of sponsorship with Blue Square. Maybe WE should all get Des & Tighty medals to present at the national instead of vice versa!
-
I know this can't happen this season but my idea is this.
bring back regional's (winning seats for nationals)
one extra Saturday at your local casino (same as above without medals/points)
one extra $5 re-buy qualifier on BSq say the mon. night same week as the national
any seats still left after the above 1st come 1st served on the day!
If you REALY want to play and you've missed all the above, get there
REALY early!
regarding the one extra saturday I'm sure there would be enough members willing
to give up one saturday to TD this. (if you have 6 or 7 willing members from each
area you would only have to TD once a year) I think it's unfair to ask Des &Co. to
give up any more free time
regarding the extra BSq event if there's only 4 or 5 seats left then scrap it and it's 1st come.. If there is too much money in the pot then chop it.
Eg.. 1-16 = seat 17-20 = $200
Just an idea of mine as well as "any member with a limb missing should auto-qualify"
-
any seats still left after the above 1st come 1st served on the day!
If you REALY want to play and you've missed all the above, get there
REALY early!
Worst idea ever, if this was to happen then you might have 300 odd folk travelling for hours to a 200 capacity event. It"d cause riots at the casino and be a nightmare!
-
didn"t last year and that was just for alternates
-
any seats still left after the above 1st come 1st served on the day!
If you REALY want to play and you've missed all the above, get there
REALY early!
Worst idea ever, if this was to happen then you might have 300 odd folk travelling for hours to a 200 capacity event. It"d cause riots at the casino and be a nightmare!
I"ll take the food franchise outside the casinos. Should be a money spinner. ;D
-
didn"t last year and that was just for alternates
Yeah but not many people travel to be alternates, only a select few, obviously hundreds would travel down if it was 1st come 1st served free for all... wouldn"t work, ever, imo.
-
accomodation issues as well. You dont want to book a room in a hotel and find you aren"t playing....
-
didn"t last year and that was just for alternates
Yeah but not many people travel to be alternates, only a select few, obviously hundreds would travel down if it was 1st come 1st served free for all... wouldn"t work, ever, imo.
Especially if there were two day 1s...
-
-
i"ll shut the **** up in future then
-
i"ll shut the **** up in future then
Tony,
As I posted earlier, we are always grateful for peoples views and ideas. APAT is a place for open debate on these subjects and everyone has a view.
Normally these views will be different. ;D
Leigh
-
i"ll shut the **** up in future then
Just a debate Tone, would never want to (or be able to ;D) shut you up
-
Just thought I would contribute to the debate, and whilst i can understand people"s disappointment at missing out on a seat, there seems to be a complete over reaction from some.
The main thing to remember is that the tournaments are all for amateurs run by volunteers who sacrifice a lot for our enjoyment. The completion of Season 3 has generated a lot of excitement and everyone is keen to play, especially with even more people becoming involved due to the online league. With this in mind the first tournament was always going to be in huge demand and people are unfortunately going to miss out, everyone needs to accept this as it will continue to be like this I feel all year.
Some poor comments have been made and not retracted yet on some threads. I started playing APAT associated tournaments last year and have enjoyed getting to know many people online and at the live events, I wasn"t a regular name but managed to play at the European, Scottish, Irish and World Amateur main event, I qualified for one via satellites and managed to get seats throught the clickfest for the others and was fortunately never disappointed, but I"m sure I will be this year.
So, some need to have a reality check, remember it"s run by volunteers, we are all amateurs, we enjoy the live events if we get to them, they are superb, but they are not guaranteed for anyone.
Be thankful we have this great organisation that provides us the opportunity to socialise, enjoy poker for extremely good value.
See you all in Walsall !!
Don
-
Like it wud come down to 1st come anyway!
If we did the Saturday thing 8 from each regional x2 x regions
You're the teacher rob how many wud that leave to win on line?
-
Just thought I would contribute to the debate, and whilst i can understand people"s disappointment at missing out on a seat, there seems to be a complete over reaction from some.
The main thing to remember is that the tournaments are all for amateurs run by volunteers who sacrifice a lot for our enjoyment. The completion of Season 3 has generated a lot of excitement and everyone is keen to play, especially with even more people becoming involved due to the online league. With this in mind the first tournament was always going to be in huge demand and people are unfortunately going to miss out, everyone needs to accept this as it will continue to be like this I feel all year.
Some poor comments have been made and not retracted yet on some threads. I started playing APAT associated tournaments last year and have enjoyed getting to know many people online and at the live events, I wasn"t a regular name but managed to play at the European, Scottish, Irish and World Amateur main event, I qualified for one via satellites and managed to get seats throught the clickfest for the others and was fortunately never disappointed, but I"m sure I will be this year.
So, some need to have a reality check, remember it"s run by volunteers, we are all amateurs, we enjoy the live events if we get to them, they are superb, but they are not guaranteed for anyone.
Be thankful we have this great organisation that provides us the opportunity to socialise, enjoy poker for extremely good value.
See you all in Walsall !!
Don
+1
-
Being as I seemed to have opened this can of worms.......why......if you have TWO Day one"s, do they have to be on TWO SEPERATE DAYS ?
Just as a for-instance, for Walsall, day 1-A could be played there while day 1-B was at Star City ?.......on the SAME day ??
Nobody needs extra days off work and people who pre-booked hotels etc, would still be within close proximity to the venue.
While I am still miffed at missing out, I would be 10-times more unhappy had I booked flights and rooms for Dublin (As I did last year) only to find that I did not get in to that one.
Surely the more people who can be accomodated, the more prize money is on offer and the more people get the opportunity to play.
To people who say "That wont work" then dont enter !!
It would be great for some of us to have the choice !!
-
Being as I seemed to have opened this can of worms.......why......if you have TWO Day one"s, do they have to be on TWO SEPERATE DAYS ?
Just as a for-instance, for Walsall, day 1-A could be played there while day 1-B was at Star City ?.......on the SAME day ??
Nobody needs extra days off work and people who pre-booked hotels etc, would still be within close proximity to the venue.
While I am still miffed at missing out, I would be 10-times more unhappy had I booked flights and rooms for Dublin (As I did last year) only to find that I did not get in to that one.
Surely the more people who can be accomodated, the more prize money is on offer and the more people get the opportunity to play.
To people who say "That wont work" then dont enter !!
It would be great for some of us to have the choice !!
Resonable thought but no way you are going to reduce the field of 400 to 1 in 2 days, you would need a 3rd day of play anyway or a complete crap shoot structure imo.
-
Being as I seemed to have opened this can of worms.......why......if you have TWO Day one"s, do they have to be on TWO SEPERATE DAYS ?
Just as a for-instance, for Walsall, day 1-A could be played there while day 1-B was at Star City ?.......on the SAME day ??
Nobody needs extra days off work and people who pre-booked hotels etc, would still be within close proximity to the venue.
While I am still miffed at missing out, I would be 10-times more unhappy had I booked flights and rooms for Dublin (As I did last year) only to find that I did not get in to that one.
Surely the more people who can be accomodated, the more prize money is on offer and the more people get the opportunity to play.
To people who say "That wont work" then dont enter !!
It would be great for some of us to have the choice !!
Typically the casinos charge two thousand pounds to run an APAT event. Remember, they are all registration free and include free buffets, are fully dealer dealt and start early on both days. In this environment, nobody would foot the incremental cost. Unless we put a much more aggressive structure in place, you would also bring 50 plus runners back on Sunday and the finalists will not get out of the venue until well beyond midnight, which isn"t great if you"re in work the following day. APAT isn"t the GUKPT lite. We do a lot of things differently and the quality would suffer if you went to multi venue or three / four day events. That said, our European and World festivals will run over four and five days respectively in Season Three.
-
It"s difficult enough organising an event in one venue, Brian, without trying to bring another on board on the same day. This kind of thing is easier to organise for organisations such as wsope, but APAT is run by amateurs with day jobs. There could also be an issue with our sponsors in using another casino chain within the same event, although I"m not 100% sure about that.
I have to admit to being in the two day 1"s camp myself. But having seen some of what goes into organising these events, there"s only so much that can be done by APAT. We"ve got to remember that APAT is run by volunteers, and unpaid volunteers at that.
-
As much as it pains me to agree with a koppite. Dan (Kinboshi) is spot on! I also agree with Tony ...... automatic entry for Uni-dexters!!! ;)
-
I just read this and i totally agree with what everyone is saying!! ;D
Ps - Des does a great Job and i especially agree with what he says (sometimes)
-
Good answers guys and that gives us SOLID REASONS why it cannot happen !!
I am just going to have to go to the Baggies v Newcastle game instead then........hang on.......I am a season ticket holder so I couldn"t make Walsall anyway.
All"s well that end"s well..........I think !
Good luck to you all.
-
+1 for what Dan said
Cant believe some of the negativitey that"s coming out from people who haven"t got in thru the click fest.
-
Those who accuse Des or any of the other organisers of impropriety need to get a grip. If they did the same at a casino and threw around unfounded accusations like that, they"d probably end up banned. They"re probably the same people who complain about online poker being rigged against them, and that the police have a thing against them, and that life just isn"t fair because someone else has something they want. Pathetic.
^ This ^
Also if the reason for not having two day one"s is due to Des and Co"s own family/work commitments etc then there"s really no debate to be had - especially if Des isn"t being paid for taking the time out to run APAT - I always assumed he got paid as part of sponsorship with Blue Square. Maybe WE should all get Des & Tighty medals to present at the national instead of vice versa!
lol...didn"t see this earlier. Nobody gets paid to work at APAT and more importantly, nobody is asking to get paid either.
-
Heroes come in all forms!! Des - you and the guys do an absolutely wonderful job that benefits so many of us wannabe poker players, and whatever format is used for APAT games, we"ll all be there and will be hugely grateful
Next new year honours list........ Sir Des!!
-
As anyone who organises knows Des, you will NEVER please everyone.
Keep up the good work all of you.
-
i"m gonna sit on the fence here , there are very good arguements for both sides on this issue .
Yes more would get in to play but on the other side there is more work / financial outlay for APAT .
I think its a no win situation for suporters of either side .
But when all is said and done if it isnt broken dont fix it
-
-
don"t start me on Wogan......
-
You see this is what I love about APAT.
This thread starts with a suggestion of two day ones,
Follows on with a debate on the pros and cons of said suggestion,
Deviates to why Des should be knighted, and then why he can"t,
Before what I feel will now be a full blown opinionfest on Terry Wogan.
No where else, I tell you, no where else. ;D
-
-
So anyway, Wogan....
-
I"ll not hear a bad word about the silver tongued Wogan......
-
Are the people who could play - my objection was more to do with the people who couldn"t.
What about those who couldn"t because of this crapshoot clickfest? How do you call it a Championship game with Luck of internet speed being such a factor?
-
Still a lottery, but possibly fairer than clickfest?
Loads and loads better then a clickfest where fastest internet and typist wins.
Glad to hear you guys are looking for a solution. Here is my idea: How about a Day One Event on Friday that sends final table to second day (Day One of Real Event) Just so we can be a part of the weekend? I live satty on the Friday night!!
I am just saying if I am driving up early to get on reserve list, I might as well play a game....
Surely that isn"t any more unfair than the online sat system and gives live players a fair shake at a satty?
-
I"ll not hear a bad word about the silver tongued Wogan......
(http://xlforum.net/vbportal/forums/images/smilies/hijacked.gif)
Don"t start me, it could get ugly
-
I think the size that APAT has grown to (and it"s growing more and more by the day) - there are just going to be even more people disappointed with every event that rolls around. I really do think that two starting days really needs to be considered.
For people saying it should only be reserved for prestigious events or whatever I would say - EVERY single APAT event is prestigious in my and a lot of people"s opinions. There are only 7 events in the season (exlcuding team event), that is pretty prestigious in my eyes, to have the chance to be one of only 7 champions each season.
I for one would happily get the day off on a Friday to play in an APAT event. And I honestly think if the option of two starting days was put out as an option most people would be happy and it would only be a small minority grumbling...
Bump - good ideas in this one. as for people who run APAT missing out on family and work etc... apat HAS GROWN, i AM SURE LOADS OF PEOPLE WOUDL VOLUNTEER TO HELP IF THIS IS WHAT AS HOLDING BACK A BIGGER EVENT.
-
Glad to hear you guys are looking for a solution. Here is my idea: How about a Day One Event on Friday that sends final table to second day (Day One of Real Event) Just so we can be a part of the weekend? A live satty on the Friday night!!
We"re always happy to listen to suggestions but the above has many flaws.
By running a Friday Night Satellite you"re discriminating against more APATers as this is only a viable option for those who live close to the casino and who can take a Friday off work. Many travel for a £75 150+ Runner Event - I for one would not travel and go to the expense and trouble of booking accommodation for a £10/£20 Satellite.
The clickfest remains the fairest way.
-
I think the size that APAT has grown to (and it"s growing more and more by the day) - there are just going to be even more people disappointed with every event that rolls around. I really do think that two starting days really needs to be considered.
For people saying it should only be reserved for prestigious events or whatever I would say - EVERY single APAT event is prestigious in my and a lot of people"s opinions. There are only 7 events in the season (exlcuding team event), that is pretty prestigious in my eyes, to have the chance to be one of only 7 champions each season.
I for one would happily get the day off on a Friday to play in an APAT event. And I honestly think if the option of two starting days was put out as an option most people would be happy and it would only be a small minority grumbling...
Bump - good ideas in this one. as for people who run APAT missing out on family and work etc... apat HAS GROWN, i AM SURE LOADS OF PEOPLE WOUDL VOLUNTEER TO HELP IF THIS IS WHAT AS HOLDING BACK A BIGGER EVENT.
careful...!!
-
Clickfest is Bingo. Starting the event on Friday and letting people committed to it to travel, expense take time off work, etc.... it isn"t any more unfair then bingo approach. I think there was a really good Friday start date post suggested I quoted and it woudl be nice if you guys would consider it.
-
Clickfest is Bingo. Starting the event on Friday and letting people committed to it to travel, expense take time off work, etc.... it isn"t any more unfair then bingo approach. I think there was a really good Friday start date post suggested I quoted and it woudl be nice if you guys would consider it.
I believe it has and always is being considered. you have to remember this is non profit making and is done to please as many members as possible, it is impossible to please all opf the people all of the time. Although Des and the team do there best to do this
-
careful...!!
People volunteering to help isn"t a bad thing is it?
-
People volunteering to help isn"t a bad thing is it?
You do know that these are unpaid volunteers and not those paid volunteers you sometimes come across:
We"ve got to remember that APAT is run by volunteers, and unpaid volunteers at that.
-
Clickfest is Bingo. ...
Except it isn"t.
If you"re there when the link goes live, and you"re not an idiot, then you can get a seat.
The more times you try to register or buy things online the better you get - that kind of rules out luck.
Ergo, bingo is not an appropriate simile.
-
The best way to try and secure a seat is to play the online sats.
I can see at least half of the seats being allocated this way in future.
Of course this will make for less seats on the clickfest..........
I feel the need , the need for speed. ;D
-
how about more satellites ?
-
Clickfest is Bingo. ...
Except it isn"t.
If you"re there when the link goes live, and you"re not an idiot, then you can get a seat.
The more times you try to register or buy things online the better you get - that kind of rules out luck.
Ergo, bingo is not an appropriate simile.
Suggesting that anybody who was sat at their PC at 9pm and didn"t get a seat is an idiot is unfair and harsh. Acting as if the suggestions and ideas put forth are an insult to the organizers or somehow undermine their efforts is madness.
We (I) am trying to make helpful, not insulting suggestions, as it sounds to me like everybody in this thread are doing. We realize it is run by volunteers. Adding in ideas or pointing out where other have suggested solutions that might allow more people who want to participate be able to do so, should not be offensive.
My comment about volunteers was in response to an argument of why adding a second day is a bad idea. I would assume more people would volunteer their time if that is what it took. None of the suggestions I have read here today are put forth to incite a defensive or demoralizing debate. It is simply adults talking out loud ideas and exchanging valid points, whys, how, what if(s).
Have we reached the capacity?! I doubt we have heard the end of this debate and everybody whom didn't make it in this event are all excited to hear how the APAT will grow to fit the demand!
Nobody has said anything here to diminish the thoughtfulness and hard work of the men who started this brilliant association.
-
should just be sat for live apat then i can win more seats in sat lol joke think u should think about binning click feast and just use online sat
-
Clickfest is Bingo. ...
Except it isn"t.
If you"re there when the link goes live, and you"re not an idiot, then you can get a seat.
The more times you try to register or buy things online the better you get - that kind of rules out luck.
Ergo, bingo is not an appropriate simile.
Suggesting that anybody who was sat at their PC at 9pm and didn"t get a seat is an idiot is unfair and harsh. Acting as if the suggestions and ideas put forth are an insult to the organizers or somehow undermine their efforts is madness.
We (I) am trying to make helpful, not insulting suggestions, as it sounds to me like everybody in this thread are doing. We realize it is run by volunteers. Adding in ideas or pointing out where other have suggested solutions that might allow more people who want to participate be able to do so, should not be offensive.
My comment about volunteers was in response to an argument of why adding a second day is a bad idea. I would assume more people would volunteer their time if that is what it took. None of the suggestions I have read here today are put forth to incite a defensive or demoralizing debate. It is simply adults talking out loud ideas and exchanging valid points, whys, how, what if(s).
Have we reached the capacity?! I doubt we have heard the end of this debate and everybody whom didn't make it in this event are all excited to hear how the APAT will grow to fit the demand!
Nobody has said anything here to diminish the thoughtfulness and hard work of the men who started this brilliant association.
here here well said man
-
Clickfest is Bingo. ...
Except it isn"t.
If you"re there when the link goes live, and you"re not an idiot, then you can get a seat.
The more times you try to register or buy things online the better you get - that kind of rules out luck.
Ergo, bingo is not an appropriate simile.
Suggesting that anybody who was sat at their PC at 9pm and didn"t get a seat is an idiot is unfair and harsh. ...
can get a seat, not will get a seat.
You should read the actual words before making false inferences.
-
-
when you make sense Dan you make sense -- well put
-
Incidentally, anyone who hasn"t got in and is just looking to pay a live event of this buy-in level with a good structure and great environment should head straight for DTD..superb venue which wasn"t an option for those who weren"t able to get seats in the first season.
-
Thats twice in a week I have agreed with Dan! Come on you Blues!
-
should just play online sats for apat think that be fairest way
-
should just play online sats for apat think that be fairest way
Not everyone plays online, or can play online so you"re excluding a lot of people.
-
should just play online sats for apat think that be fairest way
Not everyone plays online, or can play online so you"re excluding a lot of people.
lol every 1 got pc for click feast or forum what u mean is they cant play lol
-
should just play online sats for apat think that be fairest way
Not everyone plays online, or can play online so you"re excluding a lot of people.
lol every 1 got pc for click feast or forum what u mean is they cant play lol
No that"s not what I mean. I for example, use a Mac. Blue Square"s poker site doesn"t support Apple Mac. Anyone who doesn"t use a PC is therefore unable to play the satellites.
Also some people just prefer live poker, it"s a different game and asking those players to qualify online is unfair as it"s a game they"re unfamiliar with.
Even if everyone used a PC that still doesn"t address the capacity issue. Still 200 seats for 500 players.
-
and if they cant play online they should think about asking me to do it for them scene i can win more than one lol it just to me makes it fairer way only a suggestion
-
should just play online sats for apat think that be fairest way
Not everyone plays online, or can play online so you"re excluding a lot of people.
lol every 1 got pc for click feast or forum what u mean is they cant play lol
What about those that work when the satellites are on? Those that just don"t play online (there are quite a few), those that share a computer with their partner, and so only one can play at a time?
-
and if they cant play online they should think about asking me to do it for them scene i can win more than one lol it just to me makes it fairer way only a suggestion
As it stands we have four avenues to qualify for a national. Your suggesting having just one option. I don"t see how that makes it fairer.
-
should just play online sats for apat think that be fairest way
Not everyone plays online, or can play online so you"re excluding a lot of people.
lol every 1 got pc for click feast or forum what u mean is they cant play lol
mite just stop the moaning thats all my missus miss out she took about 3 mins lol may be next year it mite get even bigger
may my good luck carry on in sats so i play all apats
No that"s not what I mean. I for example, use a Mac. Blue Square"s poker site doesn"t support Apple Mac. Anyone who doesn"t use a PC is therefore unable to play the satellites.
Also some people just prefer live poker, it"s a different game and asking those players to qualify online is unfair as it"s a game they"re unfamiliar with.
Even if everyone used a PC that still doesn"t address the capacity issue. Still 200 seats for 500 players.
-
should just play online sats for apat think that be fairest way
Not everyone plays online, or can play online so you"re excluding a lot of people.
lol every 1 got pc for click feast or forum what u mean is they cant play lol
What about those that work when the satellites are on? Those that just don"t play online (there are quite a few), those that share a computer with their partner, and so only one can play at a time?
well if they share a pc how do u click feast 2 pls in less then 2 mins ???
-
should just play online sats for apat think that be fairest way
Not everyone plays online, or can play online so you"re excluding a lot of people.
lol every 1 got pc for click feast or forum what u mean is they cant play lol
What about those that work when the satellites are on? Those that just don"t play online (there are quite a few), those that share a computer with their partner, and so only one can play at a time?
well if they share a pc how do u click feast 2 pls in less then 2 mins ???
They can"t but as it stands, one can qualify via online satellites, one through the click-fest or through the seat exchange or as a reserve/alternate. If there were just satellites as you"re suggesting, that would limit their options.
I don"t think you can improve on the selection process. It"s as fair as it can possibly be. It"s the capacity issue rather than qualification which causes all the frustrated messages and the appalling grammar. But this is out of APAT's control as things stand so we all just have to grin and bare it and just enjoy the games we do get to play.
-
lol well i hope to click in to all apats so luck to just both and my missus
-
Yep, out of ideas here too. Anybody going up the night before to stand in line for registration, early on the Saturday? Called Casino and they have Friday night game:
This month
£10 - R starts at 4:15 (1k chips)
£5 - R starts at 7:00pm (1k Chips)
£15 - FO starts at 11:30pm - What she called Speed poker.
So not really anything worth playing, imho. Any other venues nearby with better structures?
-
should just play online sats for apat think that be fairest way
Not everyone plays online, or can play online so you"re excluding a lot of people.
lol every 1 got pc for click feast or forum what u mean is they cant play lol
What about those that work when the satellites are on? Those that just don"t play online (there are quite a few), those that share a computer with their partner, and so only one can play at a time?
well if they share a pc how do u click feast 2 pls in less then 2 mins ???
They can"t but as it stands, one can qualify via online satellites, one through the click-fest or through the seat exchange or as a reserve/alternate. If there were just satellites as you"re suggesting, that would limit their options.
I don"t think you can improve on the selection process. It"s as fair as it can possibly be. It"s the capacity issue rather than qualification which causes all the frustrated messages and the appalling grammar. But this is out of APAT's control as things stand so we all just have to grin and bare it and just enjoy the games we do get to play.
and the appalling grammar comes from being a thick brummie but looks like u can understand it woop woop sure u not brummie lol
-
Yep, out of ideas here too. Anybody going up the night before to stand in line for registration, early on the Saturday? Called Casino and they have Friday night game:
This month
£10 - R starts at 4:15 (1k chips)
£5 - R starts at 7:00pm (1k Chips)
£15 - FO starts at 11:30pm - What she called Speed poker.
So not really anything worth playing, imho. Any other venues nearby with better structures?
DTD is less than an hour away.
GL getting a seat
-
Yep, out of ideas here too. Anybody going up the night before to stand in line for registration, early on the Saturday? Called Casino and they have Friday night game:
This month
£10 - R starts at 4:15 (1k chips)
£5 - R starts at 7:00pm (1k Chips)
£15 - FO starts at 11:30pm - What she called Speed poker.
So not really anything worth playing, imho. Any other venues nearby with better structures?
the broadway not far away they do a £20reby gets 100 to 120 runner makes good pot but i wont be there cause me banned lol u could always go on piss with me and scouse lol
-
there is star city aswell but ant sure what on there on friday nights
-
Yep, out of ideas here too. Anybody going up the night before to stand in line for registration, early on the Saturday? Called Casino and they have Friday night game:
This month
£10 - R starts at 4:15 (1k chips)
£5 - R starts at 7:00pm (1k Chips)
£15 - FO starts at 11:30pm - What she called Speed poker.
So not really anything worth playing, imho. Any other venues nearby with better structures?
Coventry"s Isle casino has a tourney on a Friday, as well as DTD, Broadway, Star City - there"s a lot more choice...or you could just do what Joobs and I would do in your position Noe, drive up at 7am on a Saturday morning - only 90mins up the M5!
-
Echoing what"s been said in the previous 3 pages of posts - I feel the need to point out a few things.
The clickfests are discriminatory - end of. Against who, you ask?
1. People who only use Credit Cards to pay - as they"ve been told by countless security experts.
2. People who have 2-3 people in the same household wishing to play, and only one computer.
3. People who are not computer literate/not experienced with the form to buy into the clickfest. Seats go that fast that one mistake and you"re screwed.
4. People who don"t own a computer. Believe it or not, these do exist.
The online satellites are discriminatory - end of. They discriminate against people who don"t use computers to play real money poker, play online, or own Apple Mac"s. They discriminate against multiple users in a household as well.
The live satellites (if they existed) would be discriminatory - end of. These can"t be held everywhere and people wouldn"t be able to attend because of location.
Every option we think of has pros and cons - and ultimately discriminates against somebody. The fairest way is a lottery, but even then there"d be claims if someone didn"t get in for say, 3 events in a row and someone else got in all 3.
The main problem is capacity. The simple answer to that is 2 Day 1"s. The problem with that is the costs and the volunteers. Now I don"t know about volunteers but I"m happy to propose a simple solution for costs that I honestly believe won"t stop numbers and will help with costs.
Charge 10% juice.
-
Neatly put Sharplee, and so wasn"t Dan"s explanation. Albeit, based on what Dan said this means even if demand continues to grow we are at capacity. It will be interesting to see how/if APAT decide to expand over the next few years.
Hope organizers are getting some juice to cover their personal expenses for the contribution to all this, and happy to toss my quid in a hat if passed around. I would also volunteer time, travel and the such like if I thought I could contribute. I am not sure what a numptey like me could offer, fetch pints for people?
The only added suggestion I would have to this are more satellites? How about this idea, Live Satellite Events hosted in every Casino listed on the tour prior to each national, all the sponsors of APAT? What I mean is every casino on "tour" list has a game prior to the event to give away a seat(s), so you have a Fair Live Satellite system scattered about the UK? They wouldn"t have to be free/no fee would they so casinos would do it? Not sure what the policies are, etc
Just an idea
Then more poeple in the event earned their way to the Championship title, rather than fastest fingered their way in Plus people whom are better at live verses online, have same advantage. It is just a suggestion and I know too late this year to organize...
I really loved DTD when I was there for Blonde Event, but I have riders so anything too far away from venue will be out. I am leaning towads piss up the night before (with you guys). I will talk to riders about them catching alternative lift to Walsall if they don"t want to go a day earlier. I am pretty sure two of us are driving from Bristol and in teh end I want to be there very early to get on the magic list... Thanks for the sugsgestions, will research them all. Hotel already paid for! (laughs)
-
The regionals in the first season acted as good live qualifiers to the nationals.
They worked well but it"s stated elsewhere why they had to go for this season.
i.e. I"m too lazy to actually look for the explanation, but I remember that there was one.
-
-
-
The regionals in the first season acted as good live qualifiers to the nationals.
They worked well but it"s stated elsewhere why they had to go for this season.
i.e. I"m too lazy to actually look for the explanation, but I remember that there was one.
Season 2. No regionals in season 1.
-
Thanks Jon MW for comments but I was suggesting the best losers who had never played in any live national before, not just the best losers.
-
Thanks Jon MW for comments but I was suggesting the best losers who had never played in any live national before, not just the best losers.
it"s only a minor difference, it still just basically means moving the problem around rather than solving it.
and Kin, ffs - first season, last season - whatever, you can"t expect me to use exactly the right words every single time.
-
Have read this topic with great interest from start to now and clearly it"s one that is going to rumble on through the season. Am going to have my say for now...
Firstly, to reiterate, Des, Tighty etc... give their own free time to organise the events so that others like myself can attend affordable, well run poker tournaments with good structures in a variety of locations. To expect a simple extension to two day ones using the current organisational structures is completely unrealistic and anyone advocating this should think very hard about what it means with regards to Des etc... putting even more time in. To Des and the team... This effort is hugely appreciated by the vast majority of players who attend the events.
Next, I do believe that the incredible demand for the first national this season demonstrates that APAT is a great success and has indeed grown significantly which has caused this conversation as there are many people who unfortunately are missing out on the event. For now I think the current system is as fair as possible and has been clearly communicated so that all know how seats are assigned and that if you are desperate to play there are several ways in. I suspect it will be here for the rest of season three so if you are having problems you will need to find a solution. e.g. if you are in a house with only 1 pc and there are two of you why not get a friend who has a pc to register in your name? I don"t think it matters who pays for the seat as long as it is in your name at the start of the process. Similarly if you cannot type find someone who can and get them to register and so on. (In actual fact I think the registration happens on the first screen when you type your name in and that the payment stuff is incidental so you do not need to be a fast typer, just be there when the link goes live and be able to type your name...)
Back to the topic at hand. I"m sure Des and the team are thinking extensively about this and will come up with some good ideas so I for one think we should be at least a little patient. That is not to say we can"t discuss but that we should realise that they will be thinking about this as well.
From my point of view I think that two day ones is going to be inescapable if APAT is going to continue to grow as the casino capacities mean that in most cases 200 players at one time is the max. If that"s the case then all sorts of things will need to change. As Des said, it costs £2000 per day for the casino meaning that there will almost certainly have to be "juice" to cover this and other costs. It will also mean different people will have to get involved in organisation (this may or may not mean more "juice" as these may not be volunteers) as it is unreasonable to expect Des etc... to give up more of their time. Alternatively APAT may have to find a "semi-permanent" home (DTD for example) than can hold more than 200 players. It could be that half the events are held in the same place and that the other half stay as 200 runner events. As I"ve said I"m sure Des etc... are already thinking ahead.
-
(In actual fact I think the registration happens on the first screen when you type your name in and that the payment stuff is incidental so you do not need to be a fast typer, just be there when the link goes live and be able to type your name...)
Sorry, I just saw this bit and am highlighting it for clarification by APAT - mainly because I"m 99% sure that it"s not when you type your name in, it"s when your payment is processed. That"s why even though we had people finish at 9.02, their payment wasn"t received by the processors until 9.04 and that"s why they didn"t get in.
-
I"m finding this debate interesting and would like to thank everyone for the effort that has gone into your suggestions.
APAT has not reached this point through luck. We were the first major poker tour to launch in the UK and were the largest tour in the world in 2008. Where others have spent hundreds of thousands promoting their tour, APAT has not spent a penny. There are some sound thinkers onboard and I believe, a smart strategy in place.
There are no plans to increase the number of days beyond what has been published for Season Three. Any further growth this season will be in Europe, where we hope to announce some events shortly. That is not through a lack of wanting to deliver what our customers want, but there are numerous barriers in place.
There could well be a significant growth opportunity for our UK events in Season Four, however we cannot discuss any details at this time.
-
(In actual fact I think the registration happens on the first screen when you type your name in and that the payment stuff is incidental so you do not need to be a fast typer, just be there when the link goes live and be able to type your name...)
Sorry, I just saw this bit and am highlighting it for clarification by APAT - mainly because I"m 99% sure that it"s not when you type your name in, it"s when your payment is processed. That"s why even though we had people finish at 9.02, their payment wasn"t received by the processors until 9.04 and that"s why they didn"t get in.
That is correct Adam. It is the time that the payment is processed / reserved that counts.
-
Have read this topic with great interest from start to now and clearly it"s one that is going to rumble on through the season. Am going to have my say for now...
Firstly, to reiterate, Des, Tighty etc... give their own free time to organise the events so that others like myself can attend affordable, well run poker tournaments with good structures in a variety of locations. To expect a simple extension to two day ones using the current organisational structures is completely unrealistic and anyone advocating this should think very hard about what it means with regards to Des etc... putting even more time in. To Des and the team... This effort is hugely appreciated by the vast majority of players who attend the events.
Next, I do believe that the incredible demand for the first national this season demonstrates that APAT is a great success and has indeed grown significantly which has caused this conversation as there are many people who unfortunately are missing out on the event. For now I think the current system is as fair as possible and has been clearly communicated so that all know how seats are assigned and that if you are desperate to play there are several ways in. I suspect it will be here for the rest of season three so if you are having problems you will need to find a solution. e.g. if you are in a house with only 1 pc and there are two of you why not get a friend who has a pc to register in your name? I don"t think it matters who pays for the seat as long as it is in your name at the start of the process. Similarly if you cannot type find someone who can and get them to register and so on. (In actual fact I think the registration happens on the first screen when you type your name in and that the payment stuff is incidental so you do not need to be a fast typer, just be there when the link goes live and be able to type your name...)
Back to the topic at hand. I"m sure Des and the team are thinking extensively about this and will come up with some good ideas so I for one think we should be at least a little patient. That is not to say we can"t discuss but that we should realise that they will be thinking about this as well.
From my point of view I think that two day ones is going to be inescapable if APAT is going to continue to grow as the casino capacities mean that in most cases 200 players at one time is the max. If that"s the case then all sorts of things will need to change. As Des said, it costs £2000 per day for the casino meaning that there will almost certainly have to be "juice" to cover this and other costs. It will also mean different people will have to get involved in organisation (this may or may not mean more "juice" as these may not be volunteers) as it is unreasonable to expect Des etc... to give up more of their time. Alternatively APAT may have to find a "semi-permanent" home (DTD for example) than can hold more than 200 players. It could be that half the events are held in the same place and that the other half stay as 200 runner events. As I"ve said I"m sure Des etc... are already thinking ahead.
very well put. i think the BOTTOM line in this matter is that the operation is not just an amateur poker tournament, it is an amateur association, run by people who have full time jobs. this situation has arised before and im afraid i dont think there is a viable way around it. There are so much more issues to address than just putting on an extra day, are volunteers available, dealers available, enough casino staff available amongst many others. Its ok saying people will turn up on the 1st day on friday but what happens if only 50 people want to play on the friday and 350 want and have to play on the saturday due to their jobs etc. its a known fact that the fields for gukpt"s have shorter numbers for the 1st day than the 2nd, and most of them are pro"s that dont have jobs.
i think if there is any consolation is that the first event, especially with it being in a central location is probably the most popular event on the tour. im sure that all that missed out will have an opportunity later in the season. besides, dublin for example is a much nicer place than walsall!!!! ;D
once you get into one of these events you will realise why they are so popular!
-
gptuk as more less the same on both days and there is less pros play and more pls who have got jobs who play but we are talking about apat which i think is a much better game than blue sq gptuk having played in a few myself of each and des and the rest of his team do a really good job woop woop see u in walsall
-
Season 3 is set in stone so no point arguing with it any further...
In Season 4 however, if it would help with the possible inclusion of a second day and lead to less disappointed people, I and am sure many others would be happy to pay say £10 in juice for every tournament. There"s no reason why we shouldn"t be paying juice on such well run tournaments.
Of course this doesn"t help with Des & Tighty"s personal reasons for not being able to attend on Fridays (work/family) but maybe the Juice could be used to pay for someone to host Day 1 in their place, and with a possible 400 runners paying £10 each, even give you guys a bit of compensation (and thanks) for giving up so much of your personal time for APAT and all the great work done so far!
-
...
The casinos won"t commit dealers and the additional staff to 3-day events (at this level of buy-in where they receive no juice).
There is no juice paid by the players, but the casino"s do not provide their services for free. APAT / Blue Square have to pay a sum to Grosvenor Casinos (and I"m sure to DTD) for each event.
Presumably, should the decision be made to extend the National events to 3 days... thereby putting an extra 200 people in the casino on a Friday... it may be possible to get the sponsor to foot the additional costs [post recession, obv!!].
Maybe a few a season could be 3-dayers, but not the majority. So two day ones is impossible...
Contradictory??
Otherwise, a top post by Daniel San. :D
For those advocating that we [the players] could / should pay juice on top of the buy-in... Why?
For years, poker players have been complaining that the juice has been too high. Particularly on the big televised tours... the tours all have big sponsorship deals and TV income, yet they still want the players to not only provide the vast majority of the prize money (for WSOP, read "all prize money"), but also to pay a registration fee (juice) on top.
What APAT is doing is showing that it is not necessary for us to pay the juice, but that the sponsor should foot that bill as well as add value to the prize pool.
The bottom line, IMHO... the APAT Nationals should be extended to 3-days, but only at such time that the additional costs* incurred can be negotiated with the sponsor(s).
*These costs to include suitable recompense for APAT officials.
The End
-
Yes APAT has a sponsorship deal but I"m sure it"s not massive like the other tours you refer to.
Why should us players pay Juice?
Why shouldn"t we is the question in my opinion...
Why should we get use of the dealers, use of the cardroom, free buffet, a great day/weekend away etc. etc. and not in some way contribute to the cost...
I personally wouldn"t mind paying juice and i"m sure a lot of people would feel the same. If the big tours run by corporate bigwigs are coining it in, why should APAT, a tour run by amatuers have to run solely on sponsorship?
-
Yes APAT has a sponsorship deal but I"m sure it"s not massive like the other tours you refer to.
To give you an idea. In season 2, as was mentioned on numerous occasions, Blue Square sponsored APAT to the tune of $200,000. All of which went back to the players in added value, no juice etc etc.
Obviously season 3 is tougher due to the current economic climate, but that is the sort of support that these sponsors are prepared to back APAT and amateur poker, and trust me, they don"t just throw their money around without a lot of thought and planning.
Why should us players pay Juice?
Why shouldn"t we is the question in my opinion...
There are a number of reasons why I beleive in what APAT is doing and why I give up a lot of my time to support it. High up that list is :-
Standardising Rules
Reducing/Eliminating fees or rake in sponsored events.
I highlight sponsored, because as Rio has already mentioned, why when an event is sponsored by a large organisation, should the players have to lump up a fee on top of the money going into the prizepool.
I think the day APAT has to charge juice, we take a very large step backwards and take away a large part of why APAT is so different and respected in the poker community.
Long may this debate over how to manage the demand continue. It is fascinating reading and I will add mny thoughts as and when.
Leigh
-
It"s all very well and good having an ethos, sticking to it and being respected because of it. But when that ethos can stunt your growth? I dunno. There"s an "economic downturn" happening right now so the sponsors have obviously cut some costs when APAT needs MORE funds in order to grow.
There is nothing wrong with the way everything is going just now and I have no problems really, i"m thinking more of the number of people who are complaining about not getting into nationals etc. APAT is going to have to grow one day because more and more people are going to be joining as each season passes. And in order to grow funds are needed, and if we the players need to pay a little juice to fund the growth of such a great organisation then I have no problem with that.
I don"t see APAT in the same way I see all these other corporate sponsored tours, it"s different and while I may hold the same views as both of you regarding those tours - I don"t believe I would apply the same view to APAT in any way if I had to pay a little juice, I would see it as doing a little bit to pay back and help fund the growth of something great.
-
It"s all very well and good having an ethos, sticking to it and being respected because of it. But when that ethos can stunt your growth? I dunno. There"s an "economic downturn" happening right now so the sponsors have obviously cut some costs when APAT needs MORE funds in order to grow.
There is nothing wrong with the way everything is going just now and I have no problems really, i"m thinking more of the number of people who are complaining about not getting into nationals etc. APAT is going to have to grow one day because more and more people are going to be joining as each season passes. And in order to grow funds are needed, and if we the players need to pay a little juice to fund the growth of such a great organisation then I have no problem with that.
I don"t see APAT in the same way I see all these other corporate sponsored tours, it"s different and while I may hold the same views as both of you regarding those tours - I don"t believe I would apply the same view to APAT in any way if I had to pay a little juice, I would see it as doing a little bit to pay back and help fund the growth of something great.
Fair comments, nicely put.
-
anyone thought that casinos get some juice when an APAT tourney is in progress as there is the best part of 200 people buying adult juice at the bar , dont tell me they dont get a healthy whack from that area
-
...
The casinos won"t commit dealers and the additional staff to 3-day events (at this level of buy-in where they receive no juice).
There is no juice paid by the players, but the casino"s do not provide their services for free. APAT / Blue Square have to pay a sum to Grosvenor Casinos (and I"m sure to DTD) for each event.
BlueSQ paying the Grosvenors is like taking money from one pocket and putting it into the other - as they belong to the same group. So in effect, at the Grosvenor casinos the cost to BlueSQ/APAT is actually accounted for within the sponsorship costs. Obviously, at non-Grosvenor casinos this isn"t the case.
Presumably, should the decision be made to extend the National events to 3 days... thereby putting an extra 200 people in the casino on a Friday... it may be possible to get the sponsor to foot the additional costs [post recession, obv!!].
Maybe a few a season could be 3-dayers, but not the majority. So two day ones is impossible...
Contradictory??
No, I don"t think so. The sponsor was unable/unwilling to support the regionals this season (and last season to a degree arguably). So we are probably close to the limit as to the number of days we can get out of them. But I"m sure the "blue riband" events that attract the most people and the most attention could interest them into extending these to 3-day events.
Otherwise, a top post by Daniel San. :D
Aren"t they all? (That was rhetorical, no need to answer :D)
For those advocating that we [the players] could / should pay juice on top of the buy-in... Why?
For years, poker players have been complaining that the juice has been too high. Particularly on the big televised tours... the tours all have big sponsorship deals and TV income, yet they still want the players to not only provide the vast majority of the prize money (for WSOP, read "all prize money"), but also to pay a registration fee (juice) on top.
What APAT is doing is showing that it is not necessary for us to pay the juice, but that the sponsor should foot that bill as well as add value to the prize pool.
With the Nationals I agree 100%. They get to hold the prestigious events, and enjoy the publicity and increased custom they bring.
With the regionals, I don"t think charging a few quid for dealers, buffets, etc., is an issue. Without this "juice" the regionals (in last year"s guise) aren"t really feasible. With juice...I don"t know?
The bottom line, IMHO... the APAT Nationals should be extended to 3-days, but only at such time that the additional costs* incurred can be negotiated with the sponsor(s).
*These costs to include suitable recompense for APAT officials.
The End
What about the additional cost for a lot of the players who "extend" themselves above their current bankroll to play in these events? For many, the additional expenses on hotels, etc., might place the Nationals beyond their means. Of course, there are many that wouldn"t be affected by this, but many (and I"d say a significant minority) would be. This would run against the APAT philosophy imo.
The End (until the next post)
-
anyone thought that casinos get some juice when an APAT tourney is in progress as there is the best part of 200 people buying adult juice at the bar , dont tell me they dont get a healthy whack from that area
Of course, this is one of the reasons for getting us in the door. They probably look at the poker as a loss-leader, and it"s the money spent behind the bar and on the pit games that provides the revenue for them.
But it wouldn"t surprise me if they don"t think about it like this. The poker room is probably a separate "business unit" that has to justify its existence independently.
-
...
The casinos won"t commit dealers and the additional staff to 3-day events (at this level of buy-in where they receive no juice).
There is no juice paid by the players, but the casino"s do not provide their services for free. APAT / Blue Square have to pay a sum to Grosvenor Casinos (and I"m sure to DTD) for each event.
BlueSQ paying the Grosvenors is like taking money from one pocket and putting it into the other - as they belong to the same group. So in effect, at the Grosvenor casinos the cost to BlueSQ/APAT is actually accounted for within the sponsorship costs. Obviously, at non-Grosvenor casinos this isn"t the case.
Presumably, should the decision be made to extend the National events to 3 days... thereby putting an extra 200 people in the casino on a Friday... it may be possible to get the sponsor to foot the additional costs [post recession, obv!!].
Maybe a few a season could be 3-dayers, but not the majority. So two day ones is impossible...
Contradictory??
No, I don"t think so. The sponsor was unable/unwilling to support the regionals this season (and last season to a degree arguably). So we are probably close to the limit as to the number of days we can get out of them. But I"m sure the "blue riband" events that attract the most people and the most attention could interest them into extending these to 3-day events.
So 3 day events aren"t impossible... they could happen, they have happened (once).
Otherwise, a top post by Daniel San. :D
Aren"t they all? (That was rhetorical, no need to answer :D)
For those advocating that we [the players] could / should pay juice on top of the buy-in... Why?
For years, poker players have been complaining that the juice has been too high. Particularly on the big televised tours... the tours all have big sponsorship deals and TV income, yet they still want the players to not only provide the vast majority of the prize money (for WSOP, read "all prize money"), but also to pay a registration fee (juice) on top.
What APAT is doing is showing that it is not necessary for us to pay the juice, but that the sponsor should foot that bill as well as add value to the prize pool.
With the Nationals I agree 100%. They get to hold the prestigious events, and enjoy the publicity and increased custom they bring.
With the regionals, I don"t think charging a few quid for dealers, buffets, etc., is an issue. Without this "juice" the regionals (in last year"s guise) aren"t really feasible. With juice...I don"t know?
The bottom line, IMHO... the APAT Nationals should be extended to 3-days, but only at such time that the additional costs* incurred can be negotiated with the sponsor(s).
*These costs to include suitable recompense for APAT officials.
The End
What about the additional cost for a lot of the players who "extend" themselves above their current bankroll to play in these events? For many, the additional expenses on hotels, etc., might place the Nationals beyond their means. Of course, there are many that wouldn"t be affected by this, but many (and I"d say a significant minority) would be. This would run against the APAT philosophy imo.
The End (until the next post)
We are all amatuers... some may have a totally seperate poker bankroll, which they use for all poker expenses, however I suspect for the vast majority, playing APAT events is more a social event that can be paid for out of "diposable income".
Those that don"t want to / can"t make it a 3 day weekend... well, they don"t have to buy-in in to Day 1a click-fest, they can take part in the (now slightly less over-subscribed) Day 1b click-fest. They are not dis-advantaged, they can still try and get a seat for Saturday just as they do now.
As for bankroll management...
According to Arnold Snyder"s "The Poker Tournament Formula", a "skilled" player should have a minimum bankroll of £2121 to play in 200 runner, £75 tournaments. If you include the cost of a cheap hotel room and call £100 / tournament then the figure is £2828.
I suspect that not many of those playing at Walsall in Feb are "bankrolled" to play it... my self included. But, that doesn"t stop way in excess of 200 wanting to play!
-
Can I have the prize for "Post of the Year" now please ??
-
Wow what a read this was ;D
First up, Des and the boys, you do a great job under difficult circumstances and the fact that everyone feels so strongly and disappointed about not being able to get in, is surely testament to how good these events are and how many people want to play.
When these sort of debates end, with people no longer unhappy that they can"t get in, that"s when we have a REAL problem.
Everyone has a valid point to a certain extent with their views depending upon their own circumstances and what gives them an edge, to get a seat at the event.
I personally think what we have, with the exception of the loss of the local regional's, which given the current financial climate is understandable, is great.
The main issue is that demand outstrips supply because the product APAT offers is such a good one and offers great value for money, with a great play structure.
Two day ones would be great, if there were enough volunteers and cash to fund this but at present, with the current economic climate, I think APAT have done a superb job to maintain the level of obvious sponsorship that they have.
This leaves us with the option of adding "juice" to the buy in to help fund this but this seems to have mixed reviews and go against the whole point of the APAT idea.
Another option could be to extend the first day by starting earlier and finishing later or reducing the chips / blind level times but this would detract from the fantastic structure we already have and could not fit in that many extra players anyway.
So what does this leave us with? To be honest not much more than we have already as an option, as whatever method APAT choose to help fairly distribute the seats, someone will be unhappy at missing out.
Maybe an option could be to ask Blue Sq if they could set up some form of reward points system for APAT, where as part of the sponsorship deal with them, any APAT member that played on-line and paid a rake to Blue Sq on the cash games or a registration fee to them to play an on-line tournament, a proportion of this could be set aside in a separate fund to be used to help APAT develop their events further.
This would not cost members any extra (Win), APAT would have a chance to gain some additional funding through the support of Blue Sq playing members (Win) and Blue Sq would no doubt see more APAT'ers playing, if they knew that they were helping our organisation a little (Win).
Could this be a possible option to explore to try and finance another day's play to help grow the events a little more? Just a thought :)
Alternatively, Des could quit, his boys could refuse to help and the tour goes down the pan, in which case no one wants to play, loads of seats are available but no one actually cares!!!!!! (Not really my preferred option but it might help people to remember that these events sell out fast for a reason ::))
Anyway, if you turn up early at Walsall and get on the alternates list, you'll probably be able to have my seat by 3.00pm after I've donked my chips off with no real hand, being in a pot that I really shouldn't be in but at least I will have made someone happy ;D
-
doubt it......people are talking about setting off for the casino at 7am to be first in the queue !!
-
Why so negative, if you know they are leaving to get there at 7am, get there at 6am ;D
Not rocket science really, unlike the clickfest ;)
-
Why so negative, if you know they are leaving to get there at 7am, get there at 6am ;D
Not rocket science really, unlike the clickfest ;)
I"ve heard some people are already there
-
Why so negative, if you know they are leaving to get there at 7am, get there at 6am ;D
Not rocket science really, unlike the clickfest ;)
I"ve heard some people are already there
handcuffed to the rail apparantly!
-
Why so negative, if you know they are leaving to get there at 7am, get there at 6am ;D
Not rocket science really, unlike the clickfest ;)
I"ve heard some people are already there
handcuffed to the rail apparantly!
Your furry handcuffs or Jons ? :D
-
No doubt getting there early for Season 4. lol