Amateur Poker Association & Tour
Poker Forum => Live Poker => Topic started by: TankmanDan on February 09, 2009, 22:56:54 PM
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"Moderator discussion" what the hell"s that?
Last time I read the thread, Des had posted the "official" response to the weekends shenanigans and the sanctions imposed, inviting further discussions if appropriate I believe.
Now its gone...... Hmmmmmmmmm
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I am sure Des will post the "Official" response again for all of us that missed it
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Noe wanted it down.
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... what was the summary?
I came away from the tournament thinking if that is a representative APAT event ... better to play other things.
Happily it would appear it was a one off ...
L
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IMO what Noe wants is immaterial - she chose to behave in that manner, if she didn"t want it discussed she should have behaved differently. She has a right to reply so why take the thread down.
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No, I think Noe wants to put this behind her and I think that works for APAT to. Lets just move on.
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I will choose my words carefully.... ;)
After reading posts on my own forum, I see Noe DID request the thread to be removed. I can"t and won"t speak on her behalf as to why, or why the request has been honoured and the thread removed.
She did issue a full and frank apology to all those who were offended in a very eloquent fashion.
IMO the thread itself was actually pretty divided in opinion between a) who the worst behaved was, b) whether anyone was REALLY that offended at all.
Des, any chance you would post on the Bristol & South West Meetup Group thread about this? Or PM me?
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Can you post the official response to it again though? I haven"t seen it.
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Can you post the official response to it again though? I haven"t seen it.
I did read the official response before the thread was removed, but I still think it would be appropriate to keep a record of it on the forum.
Taking a hard line is a good measure in many ways and could help curb any future problems.
But it"s only at it"s most worthwhile if people know about it.
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This thread about the thread is in danger of becoming a longer thread than the actual thread itself
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... take all the personal stuff out ... but state what the expectations are ... and what the penalties will be ... we all just want to play poker.
L
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The beer and poker thread doesn"t need to be re-posted, but I"d like the offical APAT response to return. Elsewise what"s the stop me getting slaughtered in Cardiff and start pushing my chips in with my winky? Anything could happen. I need to know what"s acceptable now.
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The beer and poker thread doesn"t need to be re-posted, but I"d like the offical APAT response to return. Elsewise what"s the stop me getting slaughtered in Cardiff and start pushing my chips in with my winky? Anything could happen. I need to know what"s acceptable now.
I think that"s one flop no one wants to see.
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The beer and poker thread doesn"t need to be re-posted, but I"d like the offical APAT response to return. Elsewise what"s the stop me getting slaughtered in Cardiff and start pushing my chips in with my winky? Anything could happen. I need to know what"s acceptable now.
I think that"s one flop no one wants to see.
Andrew - where is your entrepeneurial spirit? You video that and you"ll make a fortune on pay to view.
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The beer and poker thread doesn"t need to be re-posted, but I"d like the offical APAT response to return. Elsewise what"s the stop me getting slaughtered in Cardiff and start pushing my chips in with my winky? Anything could happen. I need to know what"s acceptable now.
I think that"s one flop no one wants to see.
Impossible, the chips have to cross the line!!!!!!
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I feel that the APAT response should be posted as should Noe"s apology. I personally didn"t see or here any of her indiscretions, but they obviously offended a few, and as such an apology would be nice for the people concerned. Scouse stood up and admitted he was out of order and apologised for any offence caused. Noe should do the same, and then everyone can move on.
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i missed apats official response and would like to know what it was, so could you please repost it or pm it to me des, thanks
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+1
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It would be good to see APAT's response, so that if anyone steps over the mark in future, we all know what we can do and what procedure to follow, so hopefully everything can be resolved early and with the minimum of disruption.
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I think the response should be back up so people can see it but obviously up to you Des.
And i will like to publically say thank you to all who as wished me well and no hard feelings to an incident which i regret but do believe was not as bad as `certain people ` made it out to be. Shame these certain people never get past the instant opinion they form!
See you all in Dublin !!
(By the way to all those i upset some deeply when beer was offered , it dont roll over lol )
And the whole thing now has been dealt with by Des and should be left cos it has been inflated massively
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Dissapointed the official response was taken down. As i did want to know the official response to a matter that I feel should have been dealt with on the night by the Casino in particular not necessarily APAT, have had to trawl the net to actually find the details. In doing so found some remarks on the Bristol & South West Poker Group that to me were more offensive and disgusting than anything that happened on saturday.
I really hope the posters take a good look at what they have written and evaluate whether they want to be part of APAT
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"Moderator discussion" what the hell"s that?
Last time I read the thread, Des had posted the "official" response to the weekends shenanigans and the sanctions imposed, inviting further discussions if appropriate I believe.
Now its gone...... Hmmmmmmmmm
Tankman I notice the following post from you on the Bristol SW forum :
Interesting...... they appear to have "moved" the beer and poker thread and locked it. This was following APAT's official statement on what happened at the weekend and their ridiculous decisions regarding the players involved...
Yet your on Meet up groups rules are stated clearly
"CONDUCT CODE
The house will attempt to maintain a pleasant environment for all players, but is not responsible for the conduct of any player. We have established a code of conduct and may deny play to anyone who violates it. Any player which has been disqualified will not have the entry fee refunded. The following is not permitted:
Collusion with any other player or any type or form of cheating.
Verbally or physically threatening anyone.
Drunken and abusive players will be asked to leave.
Creating a disturbance by arguing, shouting, or making excessive noise.
Throwing, tearing, bending, or crumpling playing cards.
Destroying or defacing property.
Stealing or taking any chips which are not yours."
Surely APAT are only following your on Poker Groups code of Conduct which you as a member of that group adhere to? Or is this a case of double standards?
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"CONDUCT CODE
The house will attempt to maintain a pleasant environment for all players, but is not responsible for the conduct of any player. We have established a code of conduct and may deny play to anyone who violates it. Any player which has been disqualified will not have the entry fee refunded. The following is not permitted:
Collusion with any other player or any type or form of cheating.
Verbally or physically threatening anyone.
Drunken and abusive players will be asked to leave.
Creating a disturbance by arguing, shouting, or making excessive noise.
Throwing, tearing, bending, or crumpling playing cards.
Destroying or defacing property.
Stealing or taking any chips which are not yours."
Surely APAT are only following your on Poker Groups code of Conduct which you as a member of that group adhere to? Or is this a case of double standards?
If they had asked Noe to leave on Saturday that would probably have been accepted. I didn"t see anything that would be seen as abusive (nor could I see Noe ever being like that) but if people were genuinely offended then fair enough.
A year ban after the fact when nothing was done at the time is what the issue is IMO.
Edit: Yeah some of the comments on the B&SW board weren"t exactly well worded, just heat of the moment resonses to what we all feel is unnecessarily harsh treatment of one of our most popular members.
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Dunc, you yourself said this:
a matter that I feel should have been dealt with on the night by the Casino in particular not necessarily APAT,
Which is in complete agreement with my argument on the subject. You play in a casino, by casino rules, with the casino enforcing them.
Your rather cute and somewhat anal decision to then quote the "meetup code of conduct" at me is deliberately provocative but completely irrelevant.
It is a code of conduct for Meetup games which are 99% held in peoples private homes or a local venue that is not a casino. Obviously as a group we all know and respect each other and this very rarely becomes an issue, and when it does the matter is dealt with in an adult manner, taking into account the severity of the situation.
Yes, SOME of the comments on that thread were unacceptable and were borne out of the emotion of the situation and frustration at the way it has been subsequently handled. Some of the forum members are not as diplomatic and well-reasoned as others, this is the same on all forums I have ever come across including this one.
So, since I have put a bullet in the head of your high horse, you can climb down off it now and join the rest of us in reasoned debate. ;)
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Just read the B&SW thread - comments from a few (not all) posters are unfounded and out of order, and might even go as far as being slanderous. At the end of the day, if you people see APAT in such a negative light, just stay away from the APAT events - it"s not like you"ll be missed.
Should we also assume that as the B&SW forum thinks that APAT is run by nazis, you won"t be defending your APAT team title this year?
It"s a shame you can"t all be as reasonable as Noe was in her response.
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Do I take it from the inferences that Noe has been banned for a year, and Scouse one event?
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Quite like my high horse Tank think I will stay on it ;D
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In doing so found some remarks on the Bristol & South West Poker Group that to me were more offensive and disgusting than anything that happened on saturday.
Absolutely - and they are talking about boycotting APAT. Good riddance, if that is what they are like, though there was some dissent on their forum to what was being said.
Do I take it from the inferences that Noe has been banned for a year, and Scouse one event?
That is what it has said on the Bristol, etc forum since yesterday. APAT wasn"t going to ban Scouse but he talked them into it to avoid all the drinks he would have to buy.
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I think the problem here is that most people agree that there was an issue on some level but disagree with the time it took to apply any penalty.
The reasoning being "If it were that bad why didn"t someone do something about it at the time". Therefore people assume it can"t have been that bad as it wasn"t dealt with at the time.
I"m guessing that APAT (and I"m certainly not speaking on their behalf) wanted to be seen to be as fair as possible and give Noe as much chance as they could. I"m sure the last thign they wanted was to ban someone from the comp. In hindsight I don"t think she was in any state to take advice at the time, so their help and suggestions probably fell on deaf ears.
It"s a difficult one to call, certainly at Wimbledon a late line call causes more consternation that a speedy one. It doesn"t mean it"s wrong though.
If Noe and APAT have made their peace and are happy so be it and I do think that comments on another forum calling APAT Nazis is uncalled for.
As far as I can see Noe is upset as all she has wanted to do is fit in and she is eliciting sympathy from other forum users. I think getting drunk and making a spectacle of yourself is a strange way of trying to fit in.
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(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2324/2346699537_c78f20b3d6.jpg)
imo, mistakes were made and lessons learned, no-one died and life goes on.
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... what a strange but inspirational picture ... where did you find it?
L
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*sigh* If people actually READ posts properly and in context then we would be debating the real issue and not getting crazy about quotes taken out of context.
1. Nobody said we would boycott APAT. I said it would be pointless to even consider it as the events are so oversubscribed that APAT wouldnt give a damn about it anyway.
2. Nazi comments/pics were directed at the forum mods for removing the original beer/poker thread before we found out it was at Noe"s request. This is also an "in-joke" amongst the group as we have a self-proclaimed "nazi-mod" on our sister forum.
3. We are unhappy that Noe has been given basically the same punishment as the guy that actually STOLE chips from a table, ran from the casino and was then done for drink-driving. Alright he was given a life-ban, but after banning her for a year do you really think she"ll want to come back and play again? It might as well be life.
In the meantime, cheeky-chappy scouse gets a slap on the wrist and a 1 game ban.
Both these should have been handled in-house, by the casino IMO.
Des and I have swapped PM"s about this so I"m not getting into further argument as he knows our feelings as a group and I appealed to his sense of better judgement.
He stuck with his original decision which is his prerogative.
Although... If Noe HAD gone on and actually won the event, do you think the decision would have been different? And why? I do.
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I don"t think it"s useful in this context to speculate about what might have happened - there is enough going on about what did happen! ::)
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*sigh* If people actually READ posts properly and in context then we would be debating the real issue and not getting crazy about quotes taken out of context..........
Good swerve, avoiding referring to the items that were being objected to. I see the more objectionable posts about Des have now been edited, so that"s some progress. Someone logging on to your site now wouldn"t know what it had previously said.
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Hopefully all these events WERE one off"s but can someone please confirm what the actual procedures are for dealing with these situations, should they occur again, as I for one would not know what can and should be done to ensure that these types of problems are dealt with swiftly, correctly and fairly for all concerned.
Granted we should ALL be responsible for our actions, no matter how much we have chosen to drink but if all members are aware of what can be done and the right way to go about it, hopefully matters will not get out of hand again.
We all need to take responsibilty in ensuring that OUR APAT events are run in a fun and friendly environment and manner and this is not just down to Des and his helpers to monitor and sort out, as they do a great job but cannot be everywhere at once.
Maybe if we all know what can and should be done, the odd 10 minutes break for fresh air, will help avoid any repeats in the future.
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Everyone
I"ve spoken to Des and we"ll put the "official" APAT response on the beer and poker thread back up in the near future. Noe may want her post put up again also, we"ll check.
With regard to different APAT responses to Scouse and Noe, it was our opinion that the actions of both individuals were completely different, and were treated distinctly.
For the record Noe was concerned that her work colleagues would be looking for pictures etc today and would stumble across the thread(s), which is why we worked with her on taking the original thread down. Any measures we chose to take with regard to Noe"s aprticipation in APATs certainly didn"t need to include making her work colleagues aware.
I have also corresponded to Matt Dale today on various matters not all APAT related, one of which was the thread on Bristol and SW Meet up in which I mentioned my personal unhappiness (I did not speak to Des beforehand) at some of the references on that thread, though I must admit I was unaware at the time of the point that has subsequently been made that
"Nazi comments/pics were directed at the forum mods for removing the original beer/poker thread before we found out it was at Noe"s request. This is also an "in-joke" amongst the group as we have a self-proclaimed "nazi-mod" on our sister forum."
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Can i just add that the Nazi comments are like what Tankman has said. Its a bit of an in joke with the forum and I can see how it may look from outsiders.
Apologises for any upset caused on that and Matt has deleted those pictures.
Like i have said nothing bad is meant from it its just we had free speech on our sister forum and then the rules were tightened to appeal to new members.
:)
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Can i just add that the Nazi comments are like what Tankman has said. Its a bit of an in joke with the forum and I can see how it may look from outsiders.
Apologises for any upset caused on that and Matt has deleted those pictures.
Like i have said nothing bad is meant from it its just we had free speech on our sister forum and then the rules were tightened to appeal to new members.
:)
thanks, I hadn"t realised the context.
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B&SW meet up are sticking up for their "own" I personally think that regular APATers should stick up for their own as has been done.
This tour has no place for the sort of behaviour that has been displayed/reported on. I appluad APAT's decision and am sure Des and co would have banned Noe even if she had won.
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I"ve actually not deleted the pictures yet, though did delete some OTT comments that were made.
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My reasons for asking for the thread to be removed were not completely self-motivated, it was genuinely a hope to see the APAT thread move on. To log into the forums and here about the job well done by the 10 of us on the final table. To see the Congratulation to Steve thread longer than the we hate Noe thread. I have taken the time to send a PM to congratulate the winner - privately because I promised Des I would not post on the forums in hope that by lying low this would pass. In fact I was advised on Sunday by an APAT moderator not to post an apology right away, to give it a day, I assume to let things cool down. It was 4am when I got home and I worked Monday - and this is the only reason I was slow to respond.
I do regret the behavior described in these forums and have expressed so sincerely. After asking for the thread to be removed, I also expressed to Des my concern people may not have an oppurtunity to see my apology and "left it to his decretion" on how to handle that. Des and I agreed yesterday in the best interested of both APAT and my family, that the thread removal would let us move on. I understand I behaved badly, what do you want from me? I was genuinely crushed and remain so still today - and that comment is not a designed falsly to elicit sympathy. It is an effort to share my deepest sorrow with some hope that you would beleive my apology was heart-felt.
I am completely confused by the reactions and varied responses from people. I will not go into detail for fear that in doing that it would diminish my effort to persuade some that I am, was and will remain sorry. But I do thank the many of you that have taken time to PM me, email me and send me text to express in various ways that you do hope to see me across a table again some day, etc.... surprisingly some of those came from the vary people I have offended and/or had the misfortune of sharing the Saturday table with me.
My BIGGEST aplogy now is to the winner. I grew quite fond of on eth final table and was pleased at the final result. It was well deserved win and it is for him most I am sorry for today. Instead of train wreck watching, I wish people woudl divert their energy towards his success.
If it will make people still so angry with me satified, people whom don"t feel my apology is enough nor ever could have been, people who think my humilation is of my own doing and nothing short of continuing to mock my integrity, character and personal short failings......
My mobile number is 07825841953. You are welcome to call and discuss with me or my husband, and perhaps give me an oppurtunity to apologize again, in person exactly the "wrong" I have done to you personally. Des reinstate the thread and let the people who still have the need to get their distaste for me publically off the chest - have at me, but please post my apology again as well and your official rulings.
As previously promised, I will not post again on the forums which is likley to perpetuated this drama.
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Hi Noe,
Thanks for posting again. Fair play, you"ve apologised plenty and should be commended for doing so. I think that shows Saturday was an anomoly and that people should get back to talking about the event and not this particular subject. I would be happy to put your initial apology and the APAT summary posts back up, but I will not resume the complete thread because it didn"t make great reading.
It was important for APAT to take a stance on this subject, but nobody this side of the tape is happy with what we"ve had to do, or the upset it has caused you.
Des.
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Can i just add that the Nazi comments are like what Tankman has said. Its a bit of an in joke with the forum and I can see how it may look from outsiders.
Apologises for any upset caused on that and Matt has deleted those pictures.
Like i have said nothing bad is meant from it its just we had free speech on our sister forum and then the rules were tightened to appeal to new members.
:)
thanks, I hadn"t realised the context.
With respect to Richard, I don"t believe there is any context within which Nazi references are acceptable. I think two or three posters let that forum down very badly over the last two days.
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Can i just add that the Nazi comments are like what Tankman has said. Its a bit of an in joke with the forum and I can see how it may look from outsiders.
Apologises for any upset caused on that and Matt has deleted those pictures.
Like i have said nothing bad is meant from it its just we had free speech on our sister forum and then the rules were tightened to appeal to new members.
:)
thanks, I hadn"t realised the context.
With respect to Richard, I don"t believe there is any context within which Nazi references are acceptable. I think two or three posters let that forum down very badly over the last two days.
For very personal reasons +1
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Hi Noe, never met you, but good on ya for apologising, and it is very obvious from your tone that you really are sorry. Unfortunately Satudays events will always mar for you what was a tremendous effort by you in going so deep. I am sure you will put this behind you and I hope you will continue to be succesful at the tables.
Mike
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With respect to Richard, I don"t believe there is any context within which Nazi references are acceptable. I think two or three posters let that forum down very badly over the last two days.
+1
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My reasons for asking for the thread to be removed were not completely self-motivated, it was genuinely a hope to see the APAT thread move on. To log into the forums and here about the job well done by the 10 of us on the final table. To see the Congratulation to Steve thread longer than the we hate Noe thread. I have taken the time to send a PM to congratulate the winner - privately because I promised Des I would not post on the forums in hope that by lying low this would pass. In fact I was advised on Sunday by an APAT moderator not to post an apology right away, to give it a day, I assume to let things cool down. It was 4am when I got home and I worked Monday - and this is the only reason I was slow to respond.
I do regret the behavior described in these forums and have expressed so sincerely. After asking for the thread to be removed, I also expressed to Des my concern people may not have an oppurtunity to see my apology and "left it to his decretion" on how to handle that. Des and I agreed yesterday in the best interested of both APAT and my family, that the thread removal would let us move on. I understand I behaved badly, what do you want from me? I was genuinely crushed and remain so still today - and that comment is not a designed falsly to elicit sympathy. It is an effort to share my deepest sorrow with some hope that you would beleive my apology was heart-felt.
I am completely confused by the reactions and varied responses from people. I will not go into detail for fear that in doing that it would diminish my effort to persuade some that I am, was and will remain sorry. But I do thank the many of you that have taken time to PM me, email me and send me text to express in various ways that you do hope to see me across a table again some day, etc.... surprisingly some of those came from the vary people I have offended and/or had the misfortune of sharing the Saturday table with me.
My BIGGEST aplogy now is to the winner. I grew quite fond of on eth final table and was pleased at the final result. It was well deserved win and it is for him most I am sorry for today. Instead of train wreck watching, I wish people woudl divert their energy towards his success.
If it will make people still so angry with me satified, people whom don"t feel my apology is enough nor ever could have been, people who think my humilation is of my own doing and nothing short of continuing to mock my integrity, character and personal short failings......
My mobile number is 07825841953. You are welcome to call and discuss with me or my husband, and perhaps give me an oppurtunity to apologize again, in person exactly the "wrong" I have done to you personally. Des reinstate the thread and let the people who still have the need to get their distaste for me publically off the chest - have at me, but please post my apology again as well and your official rulings.
As previously promised, I will not post again on the forums which is likley to perpetuated this drama.
Nice post Noe
What"s done is done, and actions have been taken - I just hope people are able to move on now. I fully believe you"re comments are all heartfelt and true, and admire your humility. You screwed up, you know it, and you"ve accepted the consequences - good for you. End of.
All this name calling and personal slander between communities is just pathetic!!
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Noe, you"ve made a mistake that you obviously regret deeply and you have apologised for it.
Hopefully in the "Spirit of APAT" this can be accepted by all and we will see you again in the future, when we can see the real Noe at the tables.
Take care and hopefully we will see you again soon.
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Nice post Noe. We all make mistakes, so long as we learn from them - all well and good.
As I posted elsewhere, you were the model of good behaviour on Sunday in the brief time I was sat next to you in the semi-final before you took all my chips when your 5 s out-flopped my 9 s - should have been banned on Saturday imo ;D
Hope you find the strength to come and play with us all again soon.