Amateur Poker Association & Tour
Poker Forum => Strategy => Topic started by: noble1 on May 18, 2009, 16:58:17 PM
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9 player table - blinds 50/100 the opponents are all a reasonable std
stack sizes pre-flop - utg 1950 - mp 1900 - cut off 2700 - button 2800
utg raises to 250 with KJo
mp calls
cut off calls
button calls
Flop ** [ jc, 9d, ts ] pot size - 1150
thoughts on how would you proceed here? i"ll post what happens next after a few replies...
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fold pre, id rather raise 45 here than kj.
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fold pre, id rather raise 45 here than kj.
really? why?
What odds are you getting when you compare playing 45 rather than playing KJ?
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It"s a potentially "dangerous" board and there"s 4 folk in the hand... if I"m continuing in the hand at all, it"ll be check > calling it down, only if it stays cheap enough.
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Assuming sb and bb have checked?
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theres no sb or bb, both folded
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I"m a mug who"s going busto here.
Raised preflop with KJ - what better flop could you hope for than top pair with decent kicker and a straight draw. Any decent bet here is going to commit me to the pot. Don"t want to check and give the impetus to someone else who might ask me to call for my tourney - bet the pot (or even shove it all in now [1750 into 1150 pot] as it"s all going to end up in there if I bet anyway) and put the others to a decision.
Probably a spewy way to play it, but the preflop raise with KJ out of position with these stack sizes has kind of got us into trouble (or not).
The shove may even be a value bet that gets called by hands we are beating (QJ, AK, etc). Also, we have to think an overpair would have re-raised preflop.... so the only hands that are realistically beating us here are KQ, Q8, or two pair, and even then we have outs.
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I"m a mug who"s going busto here.
Raised preflop with KJ - what better flop could you hope for than top pair with decent kicker and a straight draw. Any decent bet here is going to commit me to the pot. Don"t want to check and give the impetus to someone else who might ask me to call for my tourney - bet the pot (or even shove it all in now [1750 into 1150 pot] as it"s all going to end up in there if I bet anyway) and put the others to a decision.
Probably a spewy way to play it, but the preflop raise with KJ out of position with these stack sizes has kind of got us into trouble (or not).
The shove may even be a value bet that gets called by hands we are beating (QJ, AK, etc). Also, we have to think an overpair would have re-raised preflop.... so the only hands that are realistically beating us here are KQ, Q8, or two pair, and even then we have outs.
Steve you really puzzle me sometimes lol. Seem so tight in some spots but want to go bust with this hand on this board?
I am deffo not leading here. Check and re-evaluate. Too much action behind and I"m folding
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I dont think this is a good flop for KJ. even if you hit your straight you could very likely be dead or chopping. Top pair may be good but any show of strength from an oppo will leave you hating your hand here.
Mistake was raising pre in EP with a marginal hand when it should be in the muck. I"m all for mixing up your EP raises but like Mal I"d rather do it with a sooted/unsuited connector/ one gapper.
As played, I"m in exactly the sort of spot that I didn"t want to be in....OOP with a maginal holding. TJ, 9Ts, JJ, TT, 99, AJ, QK are all possible holdings for any of our oppos.
check and re-evaluate from here for me
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2.5bb raise with KJo under the gun, why? Pricing anybody with anything half decent in, and with that flop any one with anything half decent could have hit. Okay me UG then I would defo not lead, I would try and keep it cheap and be prepared to call a smallish bet, but defo not getting married to this!
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with a check call line here on the flop if we are afraid of 99 TT JJ QK TJ AJ If anyone bets will we be any the wiser?
Also can we discount any as unlikely/maybe ish by the way the action has gone so far and by what we hold?
just throwing it out there...
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Me - all in pre ;D
Seriously even I am not getting involved AT ALL in this scene -- folding pre - tight as a ducks whatsit me
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with a check call line here on the flop if we are afraid of 99 TT JJ QK TJ AJ If anyone bets will we be any the wiser?
Also can we discount any as unlikely/maybe ish by the way the action has gone so far and by what we hold?
just throwing it out there...
Not saying I would even check call. There are four players in the pot and we"re oop on a draw heavy board. Action might make this an easy fold.
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with a check call line here on the flop if we are afraid of 99 TT JJ QK TJ AJ If anyone bets will we be any the wiser?
Also can we discount any as unlikely/maybe ish by the way the action has gone so far and by what we hold?
just throwing it out there...
Not saying I would even check call. There are four players in the pot and we"re oop on a draw heavy board. Action might make this an easy fold.
you see thats why you are my hero
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its a multi way pot on a draw heavy board... i would lead if the board was less draw co ordinated, would imagine i would check fold depending on the action afterwards, early stages in a sit n go no need to go broke on a board like this
if you lead/ check call here what on earth do you do on the turn?
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its a multi way pot on a draw heavy board... i would lead if the board was less draw co ordinated, would imagine i would check fold depending on the action afterwards, early stages in a sit n go no need to go broke on a board like this
if you lead/ check call here what on earth do you do on the turn?
I am confused -- why get involved == maybe i am wrong -- fold pre - or Lets party and all in
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I fold pre, dont see the point playing that marginal a hand from that position with the stacks as they are, chances are as played that somebody as hit the flop harder, kqs def in a lot of players flatting ranges pre (although it is loose against utg raise) along with a few two pair type hands and even 78s. i probably check fold depending on action as i expect to get my money in better, getting the money in on this flop is just a flat out gamble
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good debate , just adding another factor would time be part of our plan of what to do here..
In terms of time....how many rounds will we get with our current stack,our stack after a cbet fails and our stack after a successful cbet.
The blinds are about to go through Mr KJo and are we waiting for AA here before we play?,also what if the blind levels are soon to increase,how long do we wait for a good situation?
Would these points influence anyones decision making here as well as the pot size...?
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I fold pre, dont see the point playing that marginal a hand from that position with the stacks as they are, chances are as played that somebody as hit the flop harder, kqs def in a lot of players flatting ranges pre (although it is loose against utg raise) along with a few two pair type hands and even 78s. i probably check fold depending on action as i expect to get my money in better, getting the money in on this flop is just a flat out gamble
While this is true and a 9 handed table means that you"re even more likely to come against a hand that"s beating you.
The fact that the blinds to stack levels are like this suggests that this is a fairly fast tournament and you really don"t have the luxury of being able to wait for surefire bets.
I"d shove.
Despite Chris"s arguments, you are quite likely to have the best hand. If you don"t have the best hand then a shove might make 1 or 2 hands that beat you fold, but even more likely - if you get called by a better hand you have outs.
If you fold, pre or post flop, it"s not going to be long before you"re forced into an all in or fold pre strategy. ie You might as well make the gamble now before you"re forced to do it in a few hands time.
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good debate , just adding another factor would time be part of our plan of what to do here..
In terms of time....how many rounds will we get with our current stack,our stack after a cbet fails and our stack after a successful cbet.
The blinds are about to go through Mr KJo and are we waiting for AA here before we play?,also what if the blind levels are soon to increase,how long do we wait for a good situation?
Would these points influence anyones decision making here as well as the pot size...?
-100% insta fold pre
-check/reevaluate and almost certainly check/fold the flop as played.
-We are not w8n for AA or a good situation at all - we are waiting for a good position. If we had KJ in later position then we 100% raise it. We can open a very wide range from the c/off and button and expect to take the blinds a wide % of the time or win w/ a cont bet. From utg w/ this stack our range shud be AQ+, 1010+ and that is it, esp if the table is quite call happy.
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I fold pre, dont see the point playing that marginal a hand from that position with the stacks as they are, chances are as played that somebody as hit the flop harder, kqs def in a lot of players flatting ranges pre (although it is loose against utg raise) along with a few two pair type hands and even 78s. i probably check fold depending on action as i expect to get my money in better, getting the money in on this flop is just a flat out gamble
While this is true and a 9 handed table means that you"re even more likely to come against a hand that"s beating you.
The fact that the blinds to stack levels are like this suggests that this is a fairly fast tournament and you really don"t have the luxury of being able to wait for surefire bets.
I"d shove.
Despite Chris"s arguments, you are quite likely to have the best hand. If you don"t have the best hand then a shove might make 1 or 2 hands that beat you fold, but even more likely - if you get called by a better hand you have outs.
If you fold, pre or post flop, it"s not going to be long before you"re forced into an all in or fold pre strategy. ie You might as well make the gamble now before you"re forced to do it in a few hands time.
It"s not just me then - thank god for that!!
Like most replies, I would probably have folded this preflop (although blind to stack ratio and speed of tourney may dictate otherwise), but the OP from noble asked what you would do in the spot as played...... and my point is that having raised UTG with KJo, why would you check fold having hit the flop reasonably well. A check raise is always going to get a call as the other guy will be committed- I just prefer to get my chips in first.
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For me in these fast structured low stack tournaments, it is not the hands that you play but the ones that you don"t that result in success, and in this case I wouldn"t be playing KJo in EP, I would be far more likely to be playing 89 in LP. As stated earlier we are not waiting for bullets we are waiting for position!
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its a multi way pot on a draw heavy board... i would lead if the board was less draw co ordinated, would imagine i would check fold depending on the action afterwards, early stages in a sit n go no need to go broke on a board like this
if you lead/ check call here what on earth do you do on the turn?
I am confused -- why get involved == maybe i am wrong -- fold pre - or Lets party and all in
this is only what i would do if i was in the hand, which i wouldnt be if this was me!
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if blinds are going up soon and were soon to be in the blinds... fold even quicker pre to try and make sure we hit the blinds before they go up and then time delay in the sb to make sure we have the button the first hand they go up ? :D
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9 player table - blinds 50/100 the opponents are all a reasonable std
stack sizes pre-flop - utg 1950 - mp 1900 - cut off 2700 - button 2800
utg raises to 250 with KJo
mp calls
cut off calls
button calls
Flop ** [ jc 9d ts, , ] pot size - 1150
thoughts on how would you proceed here? i"ll post what happens next after a few replies...
HOW THE ACTION WENT -
ok utg decided to lead for 500 and only got called by mp....what do we put mp on now? before i reveal turn card..
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qj off...
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qj off...
why do u put him on QJ ?
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K Q, he"s got the nuts and is milking ;)
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u cant put him on a specific hand here- his range is anything from the bare Q to the nuts. He may even flat with two pair to see what the turn brings.
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The range I put in my earlier post
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9 player table - blinds 50/100 the opponents are all a reasonable std
stack sizes pre-flop - utg 1950 - mp 1900 - cut off 2700 - button 2800
utg raises to 250 with KJo
mp calls
cut off calls
button calls
Flop ** [ jc 9d ts, , ] pot size - 1150
thoughts on how would you proceed here? i"ll post what happens next after a few replies...
HOW THE ACTION WENT -
ok utg decided to lead for 500 and only got called by mp....what do we put mp on now? before i reveal turn card..
the turn card was a ks
i played this ;D my reasoning for raising utg is meh why not? i had been quiet up to now so my opponents had no reason to read me as being weak here hence just the calls.The two villains in the cut off and button position were quite aggressive in those positions and had been 3betting pre liberally..I sized my opening bet so that if they tried it on with me i would 4bet all in,i"m not a fan of playing oop but even if just called i"m comfortable post flop oop if i have a good idea of how my opponents play there hands..
When they all called that pretty much discounted JJ TT from all except mp..the c/o and btt would of rr these most of the time..there was a slim chance that mp would smooth these hoping for c/o+btt to 3bet again..
I sized my flop bet so that it looked like i was putting in a significant amount compared to my stack size to suggest i was committed to my hand..but my other motive to lead here was that i knew mp played his draws fast based on previous notes,the other two i surmised based on there aggression up to now would rr sets/2 pairs and draws based on this texture flop and pot size..Also there was a good possibility that i"m ahead anyway..
So when i just got the 1 caller this discounted a lot of his range especially with 2 to act behind him..All that was left based on my logic was KQ [12 combos] and AJ [8 combos] and a pot size of 1650,the turn card put me ahead of AJ and with 1200 left behind i figured this ok to go all in also my thinking was that if he had smoothed a set etc then i expect these to fold some of the time .. he called my all in with AJ and paid me off with no ace appearing on the river..in hindsight a bad call imo [what do u guys think?]
other thoughts that ran through my mind was that some of these hands would rr pre and also i thought villain in mp would not likely smooth a raise with KQ to a utg raise pre-flop which led me to my all in on turn..
I considered maybe trying to milk this as my hunch was i was ahead but in the end favoured the all in [i gave him around a 25% chance of having a set or 2 pair and considered it 50/50 that he"d call my all in turn bet,hence the option to push turn was taken]..
anyhows thx for the replies , please rip apart my play if you wish :) i thought it was a interesting hand .....even if we play it from the villains positions/perspective - or even just from a maths point of view....
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It was an interesting hand....
I think you got lucky on the turn. It put you ahead of the range of the MP caller (I think). You could have been beaten on the turn but you were too far gone now to back out.
I"m at a loss as to what the oppo could have put you on though?
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yep thx rob,when i reviewed it i was trying to get a feel for his thought process for the call..when i posted the result i hoped someone might have a different angle of thought..meh i don"t know..he is a decent player as well..all i can think of is that he somehow put me on a bluff with a small pair 66 77 maybe? or total air/same hand? hence the call with AJ pre ..I went back through histories where he had be seated at the same table as me in the past but could not find any showdown hands that would explain it either..Tilt seems unlikely,wasn"t a mis-click as he tanked his time bank out before he called..I"ll probably have to put it down as ?? i dunno lol lol
as played at least armn and jon agreed that getting the chips in was the best line,dunno if that is good or not lol lol only kidding guys.. :)
ty ty for feedback.............
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It was an interesting hand....
I think you got lucky on the turn. It put you ahead of the range of the MP caller (I think). You could have been beaten on the turn but you were too far gone now to back out.
I"m at a loss as to what the oppo could have put you on though?
yep my plan was if i was rr i"d fold with enough back [1200] to survive the blinds and at least have 1 more shot of pushing any 2...the plus for me was that this was a rainbow flop and the odds that someone had KQ were longer now with me holding a king.... some met puke up that i planned to bet fold this if rr on the flop but i"m happy with a short stack.. :) and anyhows i didnt read these characters to slow play a strong hand on this co-ordinated flop so i felt the lead had more positives than negatives...the turn was good for me but i planned to shove the rest in anyhows any card expecting that a hand like AJ would fold,,,apparently not with this guy..could this be his thought process ??
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surely if the villain was going to play he should have pushed rather than called, was his own fault he got outdrawn really. I put him on a hand like qj as i thought he was calling as he didnt know where he was and hoping to hit his straight on the turn (which he would have done)
interesting hand, always tricky kind of flops to play