Amateur Poker Association & Tour
Poker Forum => Live Poker => Topic started by: PocketAmazing on July 20, 2009, 13:41:56 PM
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Hello All,
First of all I want to thank all players and organisers for an enjoyable game of poker this weekend (well the day I lasted anyway). I enjoyed the structure and the banter on the day, but one event left a bit of a bitter taste in my mouth (not the scotch pies at the first break).
For those that we"re on table 2 after the first break you will know what I"m talking about but for those that weren"t I"ll fill you in.
I'm sitting on about 12k just above the average finally get my signature hand :3c: :3d: sweet!! (pocket invincible, long story)
The long and short of it is I get down to the river and I've hit trips on the flop I got 4125 left, I push all in. The player 2 too my left calls throwing in a 5k chip and shows 2 pair. Win for me, opponent gets his change.
In stacking my chips and getting a count of what I have the next hand has started I realise that I only have about 19k ??? ???
While I'm figuring this out the dealer has missed out the BB or mucked the hand before the player had a chance to play something like that so the floor manager is called over.
After this is sorted out I bring to the attention of the dealer and the manager that I feel there has been a miss count possibly in the change given back at which I got a blunt "last hand nothing can be done about it" my opponent had been given 8025 change instead of 825 the player in question agrees with what I'm saying but has said the floor manager has said to play on and so I lose out on 7.2k in chips
Where is the fault here? Clearly the dealer but given the situation I would in all honesty declare I had too much change given back maybe I'm too honest but would expect others to do the same.
Thoughts??
Pocket Amazing
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I don"t know what can be done here if it was me I would have chucked you the chips but we had similar problems on table 9 which is a shame because the Maybury is one of my favourite casino"s and the staff are usually spot on.
From the first hand to my last our dealer was constantly dealing wrong, giving out incorrect change, taking the wrong money, dealing flops before the betting had finished, missing players out etc etc etc. The TD knew he was bad as he kept coming over and shouting at him. We also had no rotation of dealers which is bad practice in any casino to avoid collusion etc. So even after the dinner break we had the same dealer and he cost one guy a lot of money and nearly cost me a lot when he gave me 250 change instead of 1500.
It does spoil the occasion when your dealer is dire and the TD doesn"t take control, we tried to make light of it on our table but after 6 hours it was getting tedious.
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This is exactly the sort of situation which should mark out APAT events as being different from other tournaments.
I am reticent to give my opinion of the other player without him giving his side of what happened - would be interested how he/other players at the table viewed this as initial thoughts are not good.
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When I heard about this on Sunday afternoon I couldn"t really believe that the player acknowledged he had too many chips but didn"t sort it out - he would have known as soon as he was given his change - very disappointing, whether the TD says play on or not, it"s a simple one to sort between yourselves (and it"s also simple to find out who the player was).
FWIW, our dealer after the break (dealer was changed at this point - table 4) hadn"t dealt with antes before, but he was receptive to guys like Geo2Loose giving him help, and he dealt well with a particularly vocal gent who everyone would have heard.
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hey mate yeah feel like honesty is the best policy but guess not in this case must have been clearly obvious to the player that after throwing in a 5K chip getting 8750 back would seem a little fishy ???
something happened at my table two people in the pot flop comes
Q,J,10 two are hearts player A leads out player B calls.
Turn brings a 3 no heart player A check raises player B and gets called
River a 9 no heart still both players check
player A states i was chasing the flush showing 8,2 hearts
Player B states i knew that showing Q,10 for two pair
player B starts to collect the chips just as i point out that player A still has a straight
player B starts shouting and swearing at me saying i have nothing to do with the hand. I politly reply i just thought the cards spoke for there selves the dealer then said i was right appologizing to player B for not noticing the straight. player B eventually surrenders the chips to player A but still continues to call me a F*****G PRICK saying i was completely out of order. myslef thinking i hadn"t even done anything wrong appoligised for the sake of making things better at the table but he would not except continuing to mutter prick i say to the dealer that this is my first APAT and that i thought we were supposed to make this enjoyable for everyone ::) the dealer agreed and asked him to watch his language.
Dindnt think i did anything wrong ??? besides that the event was enjoyable had a really good time and congrats to the winner :D
:as: kh
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Thanks for posting that Joker ... I was just about to (you saved me having to type all that).
To be fair, the only reason you got the abuse from Dan was because your complaint was loudest, earliest. At least four of us picked up on this and all four of us were going to get vocal about it.
Dan had explained in no uncertain terms that you were out of order and was silently backed up by Eck (one player I have 100% respect for) who confirmed it is between the dealer and the players IN the hand. I have not researched this since I have got home but personally I can understand that in a cash game when a player who hasn"t noticed he has a straight turns over his weak hand in a motion to muck. In a tournament though, when the hand has gone to showdown and both players show their hands (without mucking), it"s the best shown-down hand - mis-read or not - that should take it. Obv if player A mucks his hand face-down declaring "missed flush draw", he has no comeback at all.
To take it to the extreme, imagine you"re down to the last three in the Main Event. The dealer and the player mis-read the hand / board and ship it a pot to a player who has his tourney life at stake. Not speaking up COULD cost you $2Million, fame and glory.
To be entirely honest, I can see both sides of the coin here and I can"t say with 100% certainty that Player A in hand above DIDN"T muck his hand - it was face up, it was declared as a missed flush, and he didn"t notice that the pot was being shipped to the wrong player until Joker said. I just don"t know what rules we were playing to (Gala / APAT / whatever) and if they vary at all.
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A showdown is a showdown - and the best hand wins. There is no rule that says it"s up to the players involved and the dealer to decide which is the best hand!! If someone else at the table (or even someone railing!) notices that the other hand makes a straight and points it out, that is perfectly acceptable and reasonable. There is no requirement on a player to declare the value of his hand at showdown.
As for the insults and language (I didn"t witness it, so can"t comment specifically, and can only go on what is written in this thread) - will the treatment applied to Scouse and Noe be applied consistently?
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if he hasnt mucked and its a showdown then its simply a case of the cards speak imo
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A showdown is a showdown - and the best hand wins. There is no rule that says it"s up to the players involved and the dealer to decide which is the best hand!! If someone else at the table (or even someone railing!) notices that the other hand makes a straight and points it out, that is perfectly acceptable and reasonable. There is no requirement on a player to declare the value of his hand at showdown.
In tournaments only...
At a cash table...never unless I"m involved in the hand at showdown!
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A showdown is a showdown - and the best hand wins. There is no rule that says it"s up to the players involved and the dealer to decide which is the best hand!! If someone else at the table (or even someone railing!) notices that the other hand makes a straight and points it out, that is perfectly acceptable and reasonable. There is no requirement on a player to declare the value of his hand at showdown.
In tournaments only...
At a cash table...never unless I"m involved in the hand at showdown!
I suspect that will be the common consensus
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hey mate yeah feel like honesty is the best policy but guess not in this case must have been clearly obvious to the player that after throwing in a 5K chip getting 8750 back would seem a little fishy ???
something happened at my table two people in the pot flop comes
Q,J,10 two are hearts player A leads out player B calls.
Turn brings a 3 no heart player A check raises player B and gets called
River a 9 no heart still both players check
player A states i was chasing the flush showing 8,2 hearts
Player B states i knew that showing Q,10 for two pair
player B starts to collect the chips just as i point out that player A still has a straight
player B starts shouting and swearing at me saying i have nothing to do with the hand. I politly reply i just thought the cards spoke for there selves the dealer then said i was right appologizing to player B for not noticing the straight. player B eventually surrenders the chips to player A but still continues to call me a F*****G PRICK saying i was completely out of order. myslef thinking i hadn"t even done anything wrong appoligised for the sake of making things better at the table but he would not except continuing to mutter prick i say to the dealer that this is my first APAT and that i thought we were supposed to make this enjoyable for everyone ::) the dealer agreed and asked him to watch his language.
Dindnt think i did anything wrong ??? besides that the event was enjoyable had a really good time and congrats to the winner :D
:as: kh
Ok...agreed, firstly i will apologise, but but had had too many slip ups from players...and the dealer up to this point in what is usually a structured and organised game. And just to point out, that you may remember, the very next hand, after calling a river bet i was just shown the Q of spades, which i was beating, only to then be shown the 8c about 15 seconds later for the rivered str8. . . after this slowroll, straight after the aforementioned incident, i sorta lost the plot. . . hope it isn"t taken personally. . . ;) ;) I may consider having the odd lemonade between drinks in future, but as you may remember, it wasn"t just the one incident, but several. . .and as well as people conducting themselves in a reasonable manner, i also believe correct poker etiquette should be adhered to, which really wasn"t the case. . . .
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We are talking APAT here, and I can"t believe either incident wasn"t sorted amicably. In the first incident with the wrong change given amounting to 8K in chips, to me not declaring the error is tantamount to cheating. And in the other incident I have played in many a tournament when the dealer has mis read the winning hand and one of the other players has put them right. In fact Neil that happened in Walsall on our table, and no one said anything un toward. This type of behaviour goes against everything that APAT stands for IMO.
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A showdown is a showdown - and the best hand wins. There is no rule that says it"s up to the players involved and the dealer to decide which is the best hand!! If someone else at the table (or even someone railing!) notices that the other hand makes a straight and points it out, that is perfectly acceptable and reasonable. There is no requirement on a player to declare the value of his hand at showdown.
In tournaments only...
At a cash table...never unless I"m involved in the hand at showdown!
I suspect that will be the common consensus
well yes, but then the thread is talking about a specific tournament situation
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We are talking APAT here, and I can"t believe either incident wasn"t sorted amicably. In the first incident with the wrong change given amounting to 8K in chips, to me not declaring the error is tantamount to cheating. And in the other incident I have played in many a tournament when the dealer has mis read the winning hand and one of the other players has put them right. In fact Neil that happened in Walsall on our table, and no one said anything un toward. This type of behaviour goes against everything that APAT stands for IMO.
Spot on - it"s one thing to utilise circumstances to create an edge in a cash game, or even in a standard poker tourney, but APAT is about all of the good things in poker and for many players it is an introduction to live play. As a set of "APAT players" it"s up to ALL of us to make it a great tour to play, and to make sure the events will keep new players interested in the game, and help them to learn all the good things about live poker etiquette.
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In every cardroom I"ve played the tourney rules state that the "cards speak" - tbh, I still can"t get over someone sitting in a tourney with (loads of) chips they know they shouldn"t have "cos the dealer pushed them too much change ???
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Just to let you know that I"ve seen the thread and will discuss the various aspects of it with Des. We are also aware of many issues surrounding Dealers/TD over the weekend, which I won"t go into in public, but will undoubtedly have a bearing on our thoughts towards the venue in future
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Can I point out on one hand where the APAT spirit was seen:
Two tables out Geo (George Dickinson) Raised from small to big blind to 18k at blinds 3000/6000
The other player announced all in quietly and threw in the 15k to match the bet.
The dealer having not heard the all in proceeded to deal the flop.
Obv much confusion and before a ruling could be made Geo said "I wasn"t calling an all in anyway so the flop makes no difference" and mucked
Class
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well i had a great day + only think wrong on my table was my bad play well done des and his team and the dealers on my table woop woop roll on dtd o yeah and the cards do the talk winning hand takes all i had it in j10 last week in six card he hit 2 pair on river and missed it and i point it out didnt take me long to smash him and get it all off him the right way
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we had an awful dealer at my second table. Doubt LEigh will remember him coz he only dealt him one hand before i knocked him out :P. But Seriously, had never dealt with antes by the looks of it and was constantly stopping to think where to throw cards first and then was offering discounts to people off the big blind coz they had an ante in :S CRAZY!
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I agree with whats been said so far, in a cash game you should keep your mouth shut but in a tournament once cards are at showdown the best hand should win no matter who points it out and the player shouldn"t get annoyed about it unless they want to cheat their way to victory IMO. Same goes with the incident where the wrong change was given - if the player in question had any ounce of intergrity then he should have immediately offered up the chips he was wrongly given, if he never then he"s no better than a cheat... again IMO.
but will undoubtedly have a bearing on our thoughts towards the venue in future
Ship it to Glasgow ;D --- the Alea and the Mint could both match capacity
(the Alea could probably up the capacity a little with a little organisation).
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I agree with whats been said so far, in a cash game you should keep your mouth shut but in a tournament once cards are at showdown the best hand should win no matter who points it out and the player shouldn"t get annoyed about it unless they want to cheat their way to victory IMO. Same goes with the incident where the wrong change was given - if the player in question had any ounce of intergrity then he should have immediately offered up the chips he was wrongly given, if he never then he"s no better than a cheat... again IMO.
but will undoubtedly have a bearing on our thoughts towards the venue in future
Ship it to Glasgow ;D --- the Alea and the Mint could both match capacity
(the Alea could probably up the capacity a little with a little organisation).
i second this motion!
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Overall tournament was very well run ...
In terms of the individual scenarios flagged I would be interested in the official APAT view.
As a general point it would be really useful to have a quick APAT onsite briefing about the spirit the game should be played in and to clarify things with regards to best hand wins at showdown etc ...
Also interested in the official APAT view on the dealers/TDs and what you should do as a player if things are going wrong with dealers/rulings?
My take is with dealers be supportive/patient - ask for a TD quickly.
How mush guidance does APAT give to the TDs? There seemed to be a lot of variation on dealing practices and rulings.
I look forward to thoughts.
Louis
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The dealer at my first table was not to great either (Table 10 i think), he was constantly giving the wrong change, pushing pots to losing players etc...
i say play in the circus next year. that was a nice place. better chips, better tables and able to fit 200 runners....the Apat mob who went down there would agree. About 20 or so of us i think...
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one thing that really annoyed me was the dealer we got on table 7 after a wee while decided to flip my cards over after i mucked when opponent showed the winning hand after the river :/ first time it had happened on the table all day and i wasnt happy tbh.
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I agree with whats been said so far, in a cash game you should keep your mouth shut but in a tournament once cards are at showdown the best hand should win no matter who points it out and the player shouldn"t get annoyed about it unless they want to cheat their way to victory IMO. Same goes with the incident where the wrong change was given - if the player in question had any ounce of intergrity then he should have immediately offered up the chips he was wrongly given, if he never then he"s no better than a cheat... again IMO.
but will undoubtedly have a bearing on our thoughts towards the venue in future
Ship it to Glasgow ;D --- the Alea and the Mint could both match capacity
(the Alea could probably up the capacity a little with a little organisation).
i second this motion!
I third this motion. MOTION PASSED LOL!!
Im gutted couldnt make scottish but saving all my money for Vegas, (BRAG). I think it is only right for a player to point out the winning hand if it is missed by the dealer, especialy if the hand is shown face up. But if the hand had been mucked it just bad luck!
Will see ya all at the worlds, cant wait!!
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Being a local player I"m obviously dissapointed that I witnessed too many unsavoury incidents at my home national and without doubt some of these were escalated by some players forgetting, or possibly not knowing the APAT ethos.
Yes dealers will make errors, however I believe we all, as pokerists and friends have a duty to assist in pointing out errors and ensuring the correct rulings are being applied, whether we are involved in the hand or not.
Remember that a few of the dealers are drafted in from other Galas around the area and it may be difficult for the TD to know the skill level of the dealers he has been given for the day. It was obvious that a few were not used to dealing poker games and had difficulty with pots, change,early flops etc.
I started on table 9 and the young lad did not seem to have a clue, we were lucky that the players on the table recognised this and we assisted him as much we could, repeatedly telling him to take his time and not to panic.
I had a word with the TD and asked him to keep an eye on him and shortly after this we had to call over the TD when this happened:
I and one other had limped in, folded to BB who now had options and started to think. Dealer collected the chips into the centre and started to deal a flop, he burned then turned a K before we could stop him and pointed out that the BB had still to declare what action he wanted to take.
We had a quick chat amongst ourselves and we all agreed that the K should be placed into the pack and reshuffled but we were mixed upon what other action was required so we called over the TD.
The ruling was that the remaining flop, turn and river be dealt face down and the K placed into the pack and then reshuffled as the K must be given a chance. The BB was now given his option before the next card was dealt, replacing the K. and then the remaining 2 flop cards were turned face up. I believe this was probably the fairest and correct ruling.
I benefitted from a then 8 high flop and after raising the BB folded AK, very unlucky for him.
I was particularly disturbed by the guy who was abusive to Tighty before we started the SNG after the days play had ended. That he was allowed to go on for as long as he did with staff in attendance was totally unacceptable.
Well done Mr Prew on showing such restraint.
Very dissapointing after season 1 and 2 going so well. Looks like we"ll be up in Aberdeen at the new Grosvener next year, wrap up warm guys and gals.
Geo
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To me, if you have got to cheat to call yourself a winner, then you are only fooling yourself.
As far as the Maybury goes, it was by far the worse casino that I have played an APAT event in. Poor dealers, too many incidents allowed to pass unpunished......and as for the "Buffet".......well we BCPC players had to go for a dodgy curry just to get rid of the taste !!.....Thos pies MUST have been pinched from Hadrian"s Wall.
I am not averse to a bit of fun, but Scouse gets banned for foul language yet players having had too many sherbets here can roll around the floor in the main bar area without even a word of warning ??
Nothing against anyone involved personally but one wrong move or word and it couldv"e turned ugly IMO.
Circus was much better and Steve and Paul McG will vouch for the cash-games there too.
Anyway, well done the APAT organisers once again and ROLL ON THE WORLDS.
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I was particularly disturbed by the guy who was abusive to Tighty before we started the SNG after the days play had ended. That he was allowed to go on for as long as he did with staff in attendance was totally unacceptable.
Well done Mr Prew on showing such restraint.
First off, please let me acknowledge that it was me who helped this a**ehole secure a seat at this event. And for that, please know that it is something I 100% regret.
Jim Lang has been loud and obnoxious at previous APATs and two other poker tournaments I"ve played with him at but not abusive to the best of my knowledge. Yes, we"ve always known that there WOULD be a time when he"d step so far over the line we"d want to completely disown him ... those who knew him as well as I do weren"t prepared for just how nasty it would get on Saturday though. Those who know him best though ... well they knew to get the hell away from him at the earliest opportunity (two had the foresight and left as soon as they got put out).
A good few people who"s face he got up into are to be commended for showing restraint (Rich mostly - I read that he was boiling inside on his Blog on Blonde) and yes, I agree it was poor that he was allowed to remain in the building hurling such abuse for so long. As someone he considered a friend (I"ve spent most of the last year I"ve known him avoiding calls etc.) I was 50/50 on whether I wanted to hustle him out the door and hope casino staff had the sense to lock him out, or knock his teeth in. I opted for the former (not soon enough I know) but was happy waking up next morning with the minimum regret.
As his "friend", first thing on Sunday morning I sent him a straight-to-the-point text message saying that I never wanted to hear from him again, and that he would not be welcome at any future APAT Events. As an APAT Manager, I"ve taken a step towards ensuring he is unable to do this again.
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Just a small bit from me re what you have said Neil, I was very offended by Jim. In his drunken state, whilst I was in a hand playing, he was making loud innappropriate comments to me and ended up scratching my back which was bloody sore as he was trying to get my attention, following me round the casino being loud and rude was embarrassing too.
As for the incident before the SNG, I was so disgusted with his behaviour I walked away for a while in the hope it would have calmed down when I returned.
Another lady I was sitting with watching FT (not sure of her name but she played APAT) told me that he was very rude and continually embarrassed her in front of her fiance with crude comments.
Personally, I would like to see him get a lifetime ban from APAT.
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Wasn"t there, but the guys behaviour sounds totally un acceptable, well done Neil for your quick actions and re actions, and I agree with Mair, ban the guy from ever playing APAT again.
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This thread seems to have taken a tangent slightly.
With reponse to the original poster.
I watched the hand in question closely. You were all in and the calling player had called with most of his. I remembered thinking, Thats more or less crippled him after the pot was awarded to you.
The dealer awarded the chips and the next hand began quickly with me in the BB.
Everyone folds apart from the previous losing player who calls to me. I notice you are still counting your chips.
The dealer then awards the pot to the caller and gathers cards together. I still have my cards in front of me and the caller is holding tightly to his saying nothing.
You then rightly point out that you were short changed from the previous hand. I look to the stack of the player still in the current hand and notice he has more chips than he should and is still healthy.
The TD is called and says its no late to do anything about it as the hand is over. I heard you continue to protest, after the TD leaves however the benefiting player reiterates that the TD said it was too late for a ruling and did not offer to sort out the problem. The current hand was then sorted out and we continued the game. I feel the player who had been awarded too many chips clearly knew this was the case and had an opportunity to be honest. He chose not to be.
With regard to the abusive player. This player was behaving as bad as ive seen in an APAT event from the first or second level. Quite rude and very aggresive. It seems obvious and sensible to ban this player in some way, however I am disappointed that everyone has to suffer this the whole weekend before some action can be taken.
Intially this player was shouting and screaming at the top of his voice and being very aggressive to another player who he sucked out on. The whole table was disgusted by his behaviour and comments were muttered. The dealer had to intervene to calm the situation, however I feel this was the opportunity to involve the TD and perhaps give this player a stern warning or a 20 minute break from the table. I would like to see appropriate on-the-spot penalties introduced for future APAT events, with perhaps a 3 strikes and youre out rule.
With regard to the Gala Maybury pies, I think the less said the better.
Other than this I enjoyed the weekend. Thanks to everyone for making it a good one.
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I would also like to add a little bit Re: Neil's comments
Jim was totally out of line and offended many people. Drunk or not there was no excusing his behaviour (I also had too much to drink that day but would like to think I managed through the day without offending anyone).
I heard his outburst before the SNG whilst I was playing out another SNG in the same room and was disgusted by his behaviour. My compliments to Rich on showing such restraint with his handling of the situation.
My compliments also to Neil for cutting his night short to remove Jim from the casino and attempting to get him back to his hotel which unfortunately resulted in Neil also having to suffer verbal abuse.
I'm relieved to hear that steps have been taken to ensure that he will not be able to repeat his disgraceful conduct at any future event.
Anyway other than the above I really enjoyed the weekend and look forward to seeing everyone again at the Worlds :)
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Thank you all for responses and glad that we have flagged a few key issues that can hopefully be amended in future events. This was my first APAT event and I look forward to competing in many others. I enjoyed the time I played and making it to 33rd (or there abouts). Apart from these few issues that have been brought up the other players I met we"re all friendly and polite and I thank them for a most enjoyable game.
Look forward to seeing you all at the table someday.
Ben
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I had another great weekend. Yes, there were a few idiots trying to spoil it for others (and from the sound of things achieved that, which is a crying shame), some of the dealers were shocking, the buffet on the Saturday was, well, inedible - BUT, it was great to see many of the same old faces, meet some new ones, and I even appreciate the bringing forward of the dinner break to ensure I was still in come the break.
Tighty and Des (and the others from APAT who help run these events/delete update threads) again did a great job and I don"t think anyone blames them for the inadequacies of the Maybury or for the behaviour of a couple of idiots. If it was up to me, APAT will find an alternative venue for next year. Preferably in England ;).
As for the hand in the OP, if the recipient of the extra change realised the mistake and then tried to profit from it he should be ashamed. If it had been me, I"d have returned the chips even after the TD had ruled that it was too late and nothing could be done. I echo George"s comment about Geo. A true gent and a proper APATer. I"d like to think that 99% of the APAT members would act in the same way as Geo did.
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I was on table 2 and wittnessed the hand. The recipient of the extra chips made the final table. He made it very obvious that after the ruling he would not be relinquishing his extra chips.
I was also the other lady on the recieving end of Jims behavior. It did get very embarrassing and fortunatley Pete did only give him verbal back and stayed relativley calm. I agree that after Tighty had refused him entry to the sit and go with Gala staff present they should have intervened and removed Jim themselves.
The food was the worst I have encountered at any poker tournament.
Apart from the above I really enjoyed the weekend it was great to meet up with old friends and we made some new. But unless the Scottish has a change of venue for season 4 Pete and I will not attend.
Roll on the worlds and Dublin next year.
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Lol at every one moaning about the food, its free ffs.
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It should still be warm and edible ffs.
It was astounding that it was so bad at the weekend. During Season 2 (Regionals and National) the food was very good as far as free buffet food goes.
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It should still be warm and edible ffs.
I suppose thats what you get for taking poker in to the colonies ;)
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I had another great weekend. Yes, there were a few idiots trying to spoil it for others (and from the sound of things achieved that, which is a crying shame), some of the dealers were shocking, the buffet on the Saturday was, well, inedible - BUT, it was great to see many of the same old faces, meet some new ones, and I even appreciate the bringing forward of the dinner break to ensure I was still in come the break.
Tighty and Des (and the others from APAT who help run these events/delete update threads) again did a great job and I don"t think anyone blames them for the inadequacies of the Maybury or for the behaviour of a couple of idiots. If it was up to me, APAT will find an alternative venue for next year. Preferably in England ;).
As for the hand in the OP, if the recipient of the extra change realised the mistake and then tried to profit from it he should be ashamed. If it had been me, I"d have returned the chips even after the TD had ruled that it was too late and nothing could be done. I echo George"s comment about Geo. A true gent and a proper APATer. I"d like to think that 99% of the APAT members would act in the same way as Geo did.
im sure the **** cards me n u got really were the reason for us still bein in lol.
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you had a buffet at the regionals?
I haven"t played much APAT lately (too many clashes with other stuff) but the last APAT i played was the team event at Blackpool a year ago, if the food was worse than that then i really do pity you lol.
i guess the food is a minor point though and find it a bit sad reading through some of the posts regarding behaviour etc as most of the times i have played it has been a good atmosphere, it sounds like some people angle shooting on rules and others unable to control themselves is spoiling it for the majority. Hope the culprits feel suitable ashamed if this is true.
The standard of dealing makes you also appreciate DTD even more I guess, another event i can"t make "cos i will be camping in a tent for the weekend at the Leeds music festival.
Hope to play a couple towards the back end of the year and hope Des, Richard et al keep up the good work and aren"t put off by these isolated incidents.
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The food may have been free to us but some one gave me the impression The Maybury was paid for it.
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The food may have been free to us but some one gave me the impression The Maybury was paid for it.
I heard from a couple in our group that the food the Maybury served in the restaurant was excellent. With respect to the buffet they served - it was by far the worst food I"ve ever had in a casino - those pies were just inedible. I tried to chew that lump of grey content, but it kept slipping out from between my teeth - then when I was holding the opened pie over my plate a stream of grease slid out - a good tablespoon full. ewwwwwww gagging again at the thought.
Whoever paid the Maybury for their efforts (BSQ?) was ripped off. When I think back to the previous APAT games this season and make the comparison, the weekend at the Maybury came up short. Inexperienced dealers, TD who wouldn"t take control, excessive drunken behaviour away from the tables tolerated, cheating tolerated, personal abuse at the tables tolerated, horrible food, ropey chipset (multiple colours for 25 chip), and inedible food.
Walsall, Cardiff, and Dublin were streets ahead of the Edinburgh. DTD will be light years ahead - can"t wait.
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... the best bit about the chip set was that people had been eating the chips (presumably to get the taste of the pies out of their mouths) ... they were very special pies ... can we find out where to get more ... I believe they could have uses (in rodent control)?
I believe they taste better with some sauce!
L
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To me, if you have got to cheat to call yourself a winner, then you are only fooling yourself.
As far as the Maybury goes, it was by far the worse casino that I have played an APAT event in. Poor dealers, too many incidents allowed to pass unpunished......and as for the "Buffet".......well we BCPC players had to go for a dodgy curry just to get rid of the taste !!.....Thos pies MUST have been pinched from Hadrian"s Wall.
I am not averse to a bit of fun, but Scouse gets banned for foul language yet players having had too many sherbets here can roll around the floor in the main bar area without even a word of warning ??
Nothing against anyone involved personally but one wrong move or word and it couldv"e turned ugly IMO.
Circus was much better and Steve and Paul McG will vouch for the cash-games there too.
Anyway, well done the APAT organisers once again and ROLL ON THE WORLDS.
i was the one rolling round on the floor but it was only in high spirit as the others was trying to get my gold medal off me and they wrestle me to the ground the bar staff found this very funny as did the people involved so for you to say that it could have turned ugly i find disappointing and slightly over the top
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... the best bit about the chip set was that people had been eating the chips (presumably to get the taste of the pies out of their mouths) ... they were very special pies ... can we find out where to get more ... I believe they could have uses (in rodent control)?
I believe they taste better with some sauce!
L
ye i fairly enjoyed some pie with my sauce!
had to cake the thing in it to digest it.
also no serving utensils for the likes of the chips :/
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the food cant have been that bad there was none left by the time i got there
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the food cant have been that bad there was none left by the time i got there
It was. You had a lucky escape.
However, on the Sunday I"d missed the buffet (which had some chicken wings) and mentioned it to someone and was overheard by a barman. He then came through 5 minutes later with a plate of food for me (from the buffet) with some spring rolls and chicken wings. It was fine and the gesture from the barman was much appreciated - he certainly didn"t need to do that.
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I had another great weekend. Yes, there were a few idiots trying to spoil it for others (and from the sound of things achieved that, which is a crying shame), some of the dealers were shocking, the buffet on the Saturday was, well, inedible - BUT, it was great to see many of the same old faces, meet some new ones, and I even appreciate the bringing forward of the dinner break to ensure I was still in come the break.
Tighty and Des (and the others from APAT who help run these events/delete update threads) again did a great job and I don"t think anyone blames them for the inadequacies of the Maybury or for the behaviour of a couple of idiots. If it was up to me, APAT will find an alternative venue for next year. Preferably in England ;).
As for the hand in the OP, if the recipient of the extra change realised the mistake and then tried to profit from it he should be ashamed. If it had been me, I"d have returned the chips even after the TD had ruled that it was too late and nothing could be done. I echo George"s comment about Geo. A true gent and a proper APATer. I"d like to think that 99% of the APAT members would act in the same way as Geo did.
im sure the **** cards me n u got really were the reason for us still bein in lol.
Haha!! So true. Mine were worse, of course ;).
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I had another great weekend. Yes, there were a few idiots trying to spoil it for others (and from the sound of things achieved that, which is a crying shame), some of the dealers were shocking, the buffet on the Saturday was, well, inedible - BUT, it was great to see many of the same old faces, meet some new ones, and I even appreciate the bringing forward of the dinner break to ensure I was still in come the break.
Tighty and Des (and the others from APAT who help run these events/delete update threads) again did a great job and I don"t think anyone blames them for the inadequacies of the Maybury or for the behaviour of a couple of idiots. If it was up to me, APAT will find an alternative venue for next year. Preferably in England ;).
As for the hand in the OP, if the recipient of the extra change realised the mistake and then tried to profit from it he should be ashamed. If it had been me, I"d have returned the chips even after the TD had ruled that it was too late and nothing could be done. I echo George"s comment about Geo. A true gent and a proper APATer. I"d like to think that 99% of the APAT members would act in the same way as Geo did.
im sure the **** cards me n u got really were the reason for us still bein in lol.
Haha!! So true. Mine were worse, of course ;).
im sure if we combined our hands we could have took the tounrey down :P
our first table was crackin hehe
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It should still be warm and edible ffs.
I suppose thats what you get for taking poker in to the colonies ;)
Well, the best food has been in Dublin and Cardiff and the worst was at the Vic
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... the best bit about the chip set was that people had been eating the chips (presumably to get the taste of the pies out of their mouths) ... they were very special pies ... can we find out where to get more ... I believe they could have uses (in rodent control)?
I believe they taste better with some sauce!
L
ye i fairly enjoyed some pie with my sauce!
had to cake the thing in it to digest it.
also no serving utensils for the likes of the chips :/
Serving Utensils for chips = HANDS.
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I was on table 2 and wittnessed the hand. The recipient of the extra chips made the final table. He made it very obvious that after the ruling he would not be relinquishing his extra chips.
This makes it a million times worse imo, if he would have been crippled (as was posted in another reply) without these chips then he has essentially done someone else out of making the money. No doubt he would"ve had to do some work after this incident to make it to the final table but the fact still remains that he shouldn"t have had that opportunity. He"s a blatant cheat and nothing more than a lowly thief IMO.
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I was on table 2 and wittnessed the hand. The recipient of the extra chips made the final table. He made it very obvious that after the ruling he would not be relinquishing his extra chips.
This makes it a million times worse imo, if he would have been crippled (as was posted in another reply) without these chips then he has essentially done someone else out of making the money. No doubt he would"ve had to do some work after this incident to make it to the final table but the fact still remains that he shouldn"t have had that opportunity. He"s a blatant cheat and nothing more than a lowly thief IMO.
Why can"t we name this guy????
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I was on table 2 and wittnessed the hand. The recipient of the extra chips made the final table. He made it very obvious that after the ruling he would not be relinquishing his extra chips.
This makes it a million times worse imo, if he would have been crippled (as was posted in another reply) without these chips then he has essentially done someone else out of making the money. No doubt he would"ve had to do some work after this incident to make it to the final table but the fact still remains that he shouldn"t have had that opportunity. He"s a blatant cheat and nothing more than a lowly thief IMO.
Why can"t we name this guy????
I recognize one of the faces from my starting table (which was the table in question) among the final table finishers but I don"t want to mention anybody"s name incase I"m wrong. Anyone who knows for definite should name and shame though imo... Reap what you sow and all that.
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I can confirm that the sort of behaviour outlined in this thread will not be tolerated at an APAT event.
If an APAT organiser had been made aware of the issues during the event then we would have spoken to the individuals involved directly at that time. If any of you become aware of this sort of thing happening in future, please take five minutes out to locate an organiser and inform him of your concerns.
However, even after the event we can and will take action to send a clear message about what sort of behaviour is not acceptable. We will be taking to those concerned where appropriate.
Please pm me the name of the player who received the wrong amount of chips back in the original post.
We will post an update on the actions we are taking here when our investigations are complete.
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I was going to post something light hearted on this thread,but i"m not even sure now if i was
actually at the Maybury the weekend,or indeed where i was when all these events were taking place!.
But,the above post tells me things are a little serious,so i wont.
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i say play in the circus next year. that was a nice place. better chips, better tables and able to fit 200 runners....the Apat mob who went down there would agree. About 20 or so of us i think...
I use the Circus for my Office Poker fortnightly tournaments and I agree - it"s a nicer room with better facilities, mainly because it"s only 2 years old. I believe it can take 150 players.
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i was on table 3 and i can honestly say everyone played like true gentlemen thats the way the game should be played at all times thanks for a nice weekend des very enjoyable
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i was on table 3 and i can honestly say everyone played like true gentlemen thats the way the game should be played at all times thanks for a nice weekend des very enjoyable
Glad you enjoyed it Ray and we hope to see you at another later in the season.
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i was on table 3 and i can honestly say everyone played like true gentlemen thats the way the game should be played at all times thanks for a nice weekend des very enjoyable
Glad you enjoyed it Ray and we hope to see you at another later in the season.
ye table 7 was great!
we had mr Kinfishi and Jason and also Maxine on our table was great day till we got broken up hehe
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ill b there at the end of august hope i can stay awake this time will b getting some long practis on the tables
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i c the wcoap starts at 4 what time do you think the sesson will finish roughly
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I was on table 2 and wittnessed the hand. The recipient of the extra chips made the final table. He made it very obvious that after the ruling he would not be relinquishing his extra chips.
This makes it a million times worse imo, if he would have been crippled (as was posted in another reply) without these chips then he has essentially done someone else out of making the money. No doubt he would"ve had to do some work after this incident to make it to the final table but the fact still remains that he shouldn"t have had that opportunity. He"s a blatant cheat and nothing more than a lowly thief IMO.
It doesn"t make it worse - it makes it the same. The situation should have been resolved at the time but, after that, do you expect that he would then deliberately play badly because of what happened? Do you think that what happened wouldn"t be so bad if he got knocked out soon after? The incident gave him a better chance of going deep - whether he actually did is irrelevant to the decision at the time.
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I was on table 2 and wittnessed the hand. The recipient of the extra chips made the final table. He made it very obvious that after the ruling he would not be relinquishing his extra chips.
This makes it a million times worse imo, if he would have been crippled (as was posted in another reply) without these chips then he has essentially done someone else out of making the money. No doubt he would"ve had to do some work after this incident to make it to the final table but the fact still remains that he shouldn"t have had that opportunity. He"s a blatant cheat and nothing more than a lowly thief IMO.
It doesn"t make it worse - it makes it the same. The situation should have been resolved at the time but, after that, do you expect that he would then deliberately play badly because of what happened? Do you think that what happened wouldn"t be so bad if he got knocked out soon after? The incident gave him a better chance of going deep - whether he actually did is irrelevant to the decision at the time.
Yes it makes it worse because not only has he cheated the initial player out of his chips but he"s also cheated someone out of making it into the money, not to mention the numerous players he must"ve stacked on his way to the final table.
Do you think that what happened wouldn"t be so bad if he got knocked out soon after?
Of course it would still be as bad, however, had he had been knocked out soon after then less people would have been affected by his actions, so while the severity of the cheating remains the same the consequences of his actions are worse. So therefore IMO it is worse.
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What this guy did is reprehensible, and the fact that he got to the final table just shows he has no conscience! Every body who was on that table must know who he is, lets name and shame. What he did wasn"t a mistake he knew what he was doing, if this player was a true APAT player he would have given up those chips gracefully, and acted like 99% of APAT players do.
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Shouldn"t the player be given the right of response? Innocent until proven guilty, etc.? I don"t know who it was, but maybe they were new to live poker - maybe they followed the instructions of the TD and were worried that it would look like cheating if they passed chips to another player. Maybe they thought that the chips were rightly theirs?
IF, the situation is as described previously then I"d expect most players to do the honourable thing. However, if they haven"t intentionally tried to be dishonest then the witch hunt is a little harsh. People make mistakes. I certainly did with my AJ shove against KK...
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"I certainly did with my AJ shove against KK..." LOL :D
Okay innocent "til proven guilty, but the silence is damning......
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There is no innocent and guilty here, the guy did not break any rules, so he has nothing to answer for and he is almost certainly unaware of this thread. That said, he needs to understand what our general expectations are in these situations and he will be informed of that. Other than that, no witch hunt here please, that"s not our style either.
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Okay.
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There is no innocent and guilty here, the guy did not break any rules, so he has nothing to answer for and he is almost certainly unaware of this thread. That said, he needs to understand what our general expectations are in these situations and he will be informed of that. Other than that, no witch hunt here please, that"s not our style either.
He certainly didn"t break any rules, and like I mentioned if he had passed some chips back to the other player after the TD had made his ruling - then he WOULD have been breaking the rules.
So if it wasn"t until after the ruling had been made that he realised his mistake, there"s not really much he can do.
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I seem to have missed out on all the shenanigans - as pointed out above, it was very peaceful over on table 7. A bit surreal to have all 3 of the Hooper Street Massive drawn on the same table and even more weird to have what I assume is poker"s only other Wrexham supporter (Jason) there too. A few dealing mishaps, but nothing too outrageous from where I sat.
This was my first APAT tourney. I thought the organisation was excellent, the standard of play generally pretty high and the mood of the tourney (in terms of the interaction between the players) probably the nicest I"ve played in. There are almost always a few cheating, whinging or just generally miserable b***ards in any poker room (I count anything under 20% as a relative success!). Mind you, it"s easy for me to say - I"d have been throwing a right wobbly if someone short changed me to that extent and the case discussed above does sound slightly shocking, not least because of the scale.
And, kinboshi, since (I think) it was my KK that ko"d your AJ, I"m sure you"ll be pleased to know that what goes around comes around - I finally went out myself with AJ against KK. Good to meet you and the rest of the guys / gals.
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Yes, it was your KK. I knew you had at least a medium pair in that spot, but was getting so short I thought why not? Soon found out why not...
Yes, I thought our first table was good fun. Disagree about the dealing though from the first dealer - every hand was a mishap as far as I was concerned. Like I mentioned at the weekend, I play at DTD most weeks and I think I"m spoilt by the quality and consistent standard of the dealers to be honest.
The second dealer was better, even though he made a serious blunder on your hand when the other player hadn"t noticed your raise from UTG of 2K and then tried to raise himself to 1.5K. No one was sure if he"d said raise before or after the chips went it - and I think that"s pretty central to what the course of action should have been. If he said raise before the bet, then he should be made to min-raise to 4K. If he threw the chips in and then said raise, I think the correct ruling is that he should be made to call.
However, the dealer compounded the situation by returning the chips to the player and mucking his cards for him. That was a big mistake imo. The player has to be aware of action that"s taking place (and this dealer was leaving the chips in front of the players when they bet, so there was no excuse for not noticing your raise). The dealer shouldn"t just take it upon himself to return the chips and not enforce the action.
When the floor was called over, he made a common sense decision in my book. The player didn"t much the cards himself, it was the dealer who grabbed them from in front of the player immediately after returning the 1500 chips. The floor decided to retrieve the players hand from the muck (this is probably not the right thing to do in many people"s minds), and make the player make the call. From then the hand played out quite well for you :D!
Be interesting to hear other people"s reading on this situation and the decision.
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Yes, it was your KK. I knew you had at least a medium pair in that spot, but was getting so short I thought why not? Soon found out why not...
Yes, I thought our first table was good fun. Disagree about the dealing though from the first dealer - every hand was a mishap as far as I was concerned. Like I mentioned at the weekend, I play at DTD most weeks and I think I"m spoilt by the quality and consistent standard of the dealers to be honest.
The second dealer was better, even though he made a serious blunder on your hand when the other player hadn"t noticed your raise from UTG of 2K and then tried to raise himself to 1.5K. No one was sure if he"d said raise before or after the chips went it - and I think that"s pretty central to what the course of action should have been. If he said raise before the bet, then he should be made to min-raise to 4K. If he threw the chips in and then said raise, I think the correct ruling is that he should be made to call.
However, the dealer compounded the situation by returning the chips to the player and mucking his cards for him. That was a big mistake imo. The player has to be aware of action that"s taking place (and this dealer was leaving the chips in front of the players when they bet, so there was no excuse for not noticing your raise). The dealer shouldn"t just take it upon himself to return the chips and not enforce the action.
When the floor was called over, he made a common sense decision in my book. The player didn"t much the cards himself, it was the dealer who grabbed them from in front of the player immediately after returning the 1500 chips. The floor decided to retrieve the players hand from the muck (this is probably not the right thing to do in many people"s minds), and make the player make the call. From then the hand played out quite well for you :D!
Be interesting to hear other people"s reading on this situation and the decision.
is tht the J7 diamonds hand tht i ccame bk to find the TD in my way? lol
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The floor decided to retrieve the players hand from the muck
Once the cards touch the muck, the hand is dead. I dont think there can be any exceptions to this rule.
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The floor decided to retrieve the players hand from the muck
Once the cards touch the muck, the hand is dead. I dont think there can be any exceptions to this rule.
I think, if they can be easily identified and if they have been mucked by accident, you should be allowed to retrieve them and am pretty sure this is a correct ruling
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Yeah sure I have heard that if they have been mucked in error and can be identified then they can be retrieved,
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There is no innocent and guilty here, the guy did not break any rules, so he has nothing to answer for and he is almost certainly unaware of this thread. That said, he needs to understand what our general expectations are in these situations and he will be informed of that. Other than that, no witch hunt here please, that"s not our style either.
I totally agree and I think the thread is best off left for now (or locked) as too many people are having too much to say and to be totally honest I"m uncomfortable with some of the baying that is going on in here.
As in Walsall I didn"t see or hear anything that went on (although I did leave the casino early :-[) so I cannot comment but I do find it hard to understand people who didn"t witness an incident to pass judgement.
However, in Cardiff I did witness a horrific incident that I quietly PM"d Des about but my big mistake at the time was not getting an APAT organiser to witness it and as Des stated if these incidents occur bring it to their attention real time.
As for the OP - that situation sucks but I guess it will never happen to you again.
As for trash talk - it happens, you want to try sitting on a table with Gosney and Barry Neville.
As for people not being able to handle their beer and becoming violent -Bang out of order and I"m sure they will regret it.
As for the dealers - They were bad but our table was good at watching and helping him (table 9).
As for the pies - Am I the only one who thought they were nice?
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There is no innocent and guilty here, the guy did not break any rules, so he has nothing to answer for and he is almost certainly unaware of this thread. That said, he needs to understand what our general expectations are in these situations and he will be informed of that. Other than that, no witch hunt here please, that"s not our style either.
I totally agree and I think the thread is best off left for now (or locked) as too many people are having too much to say and to be totally honest I"m uncomfortable with some of the baying that is going on in here.
As in Walsall I didn"t see or hear anything that went on (although I did leave the casino early :-[) so I cannot comment but I do find it hard to understand people who didn"t witness an incident to pass judgement.
However, in Cardiff I did witness a horrific incident that I quietly PM"d Des about but my big mistake at the time was not getting an APAT organiser to witness it and as Des stated if these incidents occur bring it to their attention real time.
As for the OP - that situation sucks but I guess it will never happen to you again.
As for trash talk - it happens, you want to try sitting on a table with Gosney and Barry Neville.
As for people not being able to handle their beer and becoming violent -Bang out of order and I"m sure they will regret it.
As for the dealers - They were bad but our table was good at watching and helping him (table 9).
As for the pies - Am I the only one who thought they were nice?
lol stomach of steel!
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As for the pies - Am I the only one who thought they were nice?
I was neither over or underwhelmed and managed 2 - free food should never be questioned only eaten.
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i usually make up for not cashing, by taking on the buffet, in these events which have been very good so far.
I grabbed 2 pies, hoping that they were nice steak or chicken pies. I walked to the bar and bit into the first one. A whole load or warm jelly fat ran down my chin, i looked around to check no one was watching, and walked away from my plate leaving it on the bar. hoping no-one saw me, i felt really bad for taking 2 beacuse someone else may have missed out on the experiance.
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Yes, it was your KK. I knew you had at least a medium pair in that spot, but was getting so short I thought why not? Soon found out why not...
Yes, I thought our first table was good fun. Disagree about the dealing though from the first dealer - every hand was a mishap as far as I was concerned. Like I mentioned at the weekend, I play at DTD most weeks and I think I"m spoilt by the quality and consistent standard of the dealers to be honest.
The second dealer was better, even though he made a serious blunder on your hand when the other player hadn"t noticed your raise from UTG of 2K and then tried to raise himself to 1.5K. No one was sure if he"d said raise before or after the chips went it - and I think that"s pretty central to what the course of action should have been. If he said raise before the bet, then he should be made to min-raise to 4K. If he threw the chips in and then said raise, I think the correct ruling is that he should be made to call.
However, the dealer compounded the situation by returning the chips to the player and mucking his cards for him. That was a big mistake imo. The player has to be aware of action that"s taking place (and this dealer was leaving the chips in front of the players when they bet, so there was no excuse for not noticing your raise). The dealer shouldn"t just take it upon himself to return the chips and not enforce the action.
When the floor was called over, he made a common sense decision in my book. The player didn"t much the cards himself, it was the dealer who grabbed them from in front of the player immediately after returning the 1500 chips. The floor decided to retrieve the players hand from the muck (this is probably not the right thing to do in many people"s minds), and make the player make the call. From then the hand played out quite well for you :D!
Be interesting to hear other people"s reading on this situation and the decision.
It was a very irregular hand - Blinds 250/500 - Gareth Clearly raises to 2000.
Other player throws in 1500 chips - and says "1500".
Should stand as a call (and made up to 2000)
A decision(best one in the circumstances) was made and we got on with it.
Flop JT8 - Gareth all in
Called by J7 suited.
Gareth QQ ... which stands up.
Table 7 : Ran well in good spirits - Dealer inexperienced - I thought she did okay - I think the table was helpful to her - no dramas.
If the players aren"t helpful - general case I think the dealing gets worse - so our responsibility to help.
Neither of the tables that I played on had any trash talking - and no place for it within APAT - on a personal level I would just ignore it (or make a mental tape of it to amuse myself) but at the time it spoils the tournament for the rest of the table.
In terms of making APAT officials aware - I think this is the right answer but not always so easy mid tournament - you ask for the TD who makes a ruling - are you then suposed to say I don"t like that ruling can I speak to the APAT guys - tricky.
Louis
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Yes, I thought the ruling from the floor (it wasn"t the TD, just one of the more competent and experienced dealers called John I think, who therefore wasn"t dealing at that time...:D) was absolutely right and the decision was accepted by all involved. I would have also accepted the player"s hand being dead, but it wouldn"t have been right for his chips to be returned in whatever circumstance (imo).
Despite the first dealer, I thoroughly enjoyed playing on both my first and second (and last) tables. Good banter, no malice or angle-shooting. Just good honest poker. Honest poker...bit of an oxymoron me thinks.
General point - I think it should be the TD making that decision.
Angle-shooting - We"ve all been at tournaments when people are shooting angles (sometimes not in the hand) and it is just so grating - and not part of poker for me - whereas the elaborate and well conceived bluff is a beautiful thing and to be celebrated with the ringing of bells.
Perhaps something should go in the briefing with regards to the differences between cash and tournament poker, and also the difference between online and face to face. Some people will be crossing both those bridges at once.
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I remember when APAT was first conceived, one of it"s aims was to strive towards getting a standardised set of rules for UK tournament poker, and that APAT's set of rules would apply at all events. I know APAT had it"s own TD for a short while, but I had presumed that when it was decided that cardrooms" own TDs would run the tournament, that they would be applying APAT, rather than house, rules.
Have I understood correctly, or are APAT tournaments now just played according to the rules of the venue?
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:-* :-* :-* :-X :-X :P :P :P ;) ;)
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As for the pies - Am I the only one who thought they were nice?
I was neither over or underwhelmed and managed 2 - free food should never be questioned only eaten.
What about bulls eyes on sticks?
L
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There is no innocent and guilty here, the guy did not break any rules, so he has nothing to answer for and he is almost certainly unaware of this thread. That said, he needs to understand what our general expectations are in these situations and he will be informed of that. Other than that, no witch hunt here please, that"s not our style either.
I totally agree and I think the thread is best off left for now (or locked) as too many people are having too much to say and to be totally honest I"m uncomfortable with some of the baying that is going on in here.
As in Walsall I didn"t see or hear anything that went on (although I did leave the casino early :-[) so I cannot comment but I do find it hard to understand people who didn"t witness an incident to pass judgement.
However, in Cardiff I did witness a horrific incident that I quietly PM"d Des about but my big mistake at the time was not getting an APAT organiser to witness it and as Des stated if these incidents occur bring it to their attention real time.
As for the OP - that situation sucks but I guess it will never happen to you again.
As for trash talk - it happens, you want to try sitting on a table with Gosney and Barry Neville.
As for people not being able to handle their beer and becoming violent -Bang out of order and I"m sure they will regret it.
As for the dealers - They were bad but our table was good at watching and helping him (table 9).
As for the pies - Am I the only one who thought they were nice?
i agree with him
the horrific incident in cardiff Des cant do anything about Dewi going out 1st hand hes a fish
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I had an excellent weekend. Spent the whole of Saturday @ table3, great day and great experience.
I must have broken the rules, as we had a small incident. I had folded my blind, some error occurred and the T.D. said hand dead, redeal. After this on the offbeat, i passed my blind to my right(the player who had raised), and still had his cards. I thought i was being honest??
Luckily, listening to the the thread, i waited for buffet queue to go down. The food had gone down also on arrival, and i managed to find one small sausage roll. I left straight at the end of play, and this was all i had to eat between breakfast on Sat a.m. to Sun a.m. Do i get a medal for this????
Our table was lively and jovial, but very pleasant and respectful all through the day. Dealer was not experienced but we too, helped along the way.
I played @ circus which was self dealt, also a private dealer on the cash, whom pays the house for the privilidge, and relies on tips. Valets were far and few between here also, but nowhere near as rare as the Maybury. Nowhere near on the ball as last year ???
I can"t say i saw any vulgar or abusive behaviour of note. i would have probably had to say something, or break the atmosphere :D
Anyways APAT FTW :)
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I remember when APAT was first conceived, one of it"s aims was to strive towards getting a standardised set of rules for UK tournament poker, and that APAT's set of rules would apply at all events. I know APAT had it"s own TD for a short while, but I had presumed that when it was decided that cardrooms" own TDs would run the tournament, that they would be applying APAT, rather than house, rules.
Have I understood correctly, or are APAT tournaments now just played according to the rules of the venue?
APAT rules to apply at all venues
This particular venue needed to do significantly more than it had done to familiarise the TD/dealers with APAT rules before the event....the rules having been sent to them well beforehand. The fact that they did not was a contributory factor to some of the confusions that arose
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having waited to see what was being said , heres my tuppence worth ,
1) In the spirit of APAT the player who got wrong amount of chips back shouldve noticed immediately ( i would"ve) as for not realiseing i doubt it but enough said on that
2) behaviour , I didnt see what went on as i had already left but speaking to folks and reading this it seems to me that this was way worse than the goings on at walsall , i know scouse very well and , ok he swore a bit and was his usual self but thats what makes him who he is , the other involved at Walsall i had a brush with but even that was mild compared to the individual at Edinburgh Im pretty sure APAT will deal with him accordingly
3) the food , its all u folk from south of the border who dont know what a scotch pie is supposed to taste like ( ie crap ) thats why we dont eat them , seriously ive played regionals and been at scottish nationals before and the food was always streets ahead of the fare served up at this years event
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I remember when APAT was first conceived, one of it"s aims was to strive towards getting a standardised set of rules for UK tournament poker, and that APAT's set of rules would apply at all events. I know APAT had it"s own TD for a short while, but I had presumed that when it was decided that cardrooms" own TDs would run the tournament, that they would be applying APAT, rather than house, rules.
Have I understood correctly, or are APAT tournaments now just played according to the rules of the venue?
APAT rules to apply at all venues
This particular venue needed to do significantly more than it had done to familiarise the TD/dealers with APAT rules before the event....the rules having been sent to them well beforehand. The fact that they did not was a contributory factor to some of the confusions that arose
True. There was a minor incident on our table where there appeared to be a conflict between APAT rules and Gala rules. One of the players claimed the APAT rule but the dealer applied the Gala rule and said that he had not been made aware of any other rules to be used.
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I remember when APAT was first conceived, one of it"s aims was to strive towards getting a standardised set of rules for UK tournament poker, and that APAT's set of rules would apply at all events. I know APAT had it"s own TD for a short while, but I had presumed that when it was decided that cardrooms" own TDs would run the tournament, that they would be applying APAT, rather than house, rules.
Have I understood correctly, or are APAT tournaments now just played according to the rules of the venue?
APAT rules to apply at all venues
This particular venue needed to do significantly more than it had done to familiarise the TD/dealers with APAT rules before the event....the rules having been sent to them well beforehand. The fact that they did not was a contributory factor to some of the confusions that arose
True. There was a minor incident on our table where there appeared to be a conflict between APAT rules and Gala rules. One of the players claimed the APAT rule but the dealer applied the Gala rule and said that he had not been made aware of any other rules to be used.
This has happened a couple of times at APAT nationals I"ve been at - it"s a bit awkward trying to insist that APAT rules overide the house rules in APAT events, but both times the dealer has accepted it. I don"t think that this necessarily reflects badly on these dealers or those dealers though - it might just be down to how persuasive and forceful the argument given to them is. :D