Amateur Poker Association & Tour
Poker Forum => General Discussion => Topic started by: scouse3465 on September 30, 2009, 16:33:42 PM
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I have received a ban for the rest of the season for my exploits at DTD. I am not commenting on my opinions on this with respect to Des and the team. I am definately not suited to play at DTD and will be highley unlikely i ever go there. To be honest i was unimpressed by the place , mistakes made over the 2 days ie cards being mucked by dealer , tables on different blind levels when hand for hand , play delayed when hand for hand c os tourney director aint noticed then give me verbal when i pointed it out! and a few other things. But thats the past now!
I can play sober or drunk and am loud sober or drunk and the fun vampires like to complain when i am drunk. I dont complain when i am sat next to someone who doesnt say a word and answers questions with 1 word answers making the table boring and uniteresting. Anyway i dont particually care and aint going to write a long thread and i could go on for pages with my opinion!
I would just like to know if the APAT members want me there . And no sit on the fence answers if you stay sober yes!
Say whatever you like i wont take offence and i will not reply to this thread .
I do enjoy the APAT events but will abstain from all future live events if that is the majority opinion.
Cheers in advance and there is a drink in it for all that support me !! (joke by the way )
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Have you been drinking this afternoon?
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Hi Scouse, now then fella I don"t know you that well, but have always got on well when playing on line. I do remember one event, I think it was this year when you were particularly loud, watching those dirty reds play ;). Loud doesn"t bother me, but bad language in mixed company does (call me old fashioned). So I am going to sit on the fence and say I would welcome you back with open arms if you toned down the language, I really enjoy playing with characters, and that is what makes APAT events good fun.
I don"t know what you did to over step the mark, and I am not really bothered, but there have to be certain standards of behaviour in Casinos as in all walks of life, so really the question is for you, are you able to stay within the expected boundaries? If so, see ya next year ;)
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you can drink as much as you like & swear at me all day as far as I"m concerned, the more fish playing the better ;)
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im only ever going to play poker in dtd if your are never going in again i just cant do with people at the table having a beer and talking its just not on ;)
see you at the bar for my beer
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difficult to comment m8 without knowing the full details.
Always enjoyed the banter with you online,,,nothing wrong with being loud,,nothing wrong with being quiet,,,could hear you on the saturday and dont think you would get a job in a library but didnt see anything out of order,,,,
If i was you and i had done the crime,,id do the time lol
Hope to see you at future events m8
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not played an APAT live event for a while so can"t comment on the specific circumstances as i wasn"t there. But from what i have read it has happened more than once, so isn"t just an isolated incident - correct me if i am wrong or out of order.
I am pretty sure that Des and the APAT administrators would not have taken the steps of banning someone lightly so should be respected. Therefore I think the most mature thing you can do is take on board what has been said and the reasons given for your exclusion, accept it and come back (if you wish) once the ban expires. Take it on the chin and react positively.
I am not sure what this thread is meant to achieve, of course people are going to come on and support you and say it doesn"t matter etc, whereas those uncomfortable with your behaviour are less likely to do so.
As for the criticism of DTD, good luck in finding a venue that runs poker tournaments better outside of Las Vegas. I think 99% of poker players would agree that DTD is the premier venue in the UK for all sorts of reasons.
FWIW this isn"t a personal attack or anything, it is just the way i see it and you did ask for opinions.
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Think you"re the only one with that view on DTD bud. Dunno about your exploits and understand you"re there to enjoy yourself but I can see how your behaviour can be percieved to be against the APAT ethic.
But I"m with Dewi- I want the value at APAT
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im only ever going to play poker in dtd if your are never going in again i just cant do with people at the table having a beer and talking its just not on ;)
see you at the bar for my beer
+1
See you on Saturday Alan, we can enjoy ourselves now scouse isn"t coming ;)
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Steve, take your medicine and i really hope to see you at the next live event that you are allowed to play in.
I"m no kiss arse, but i would really miss your company mate. As i"ve stated before, Apat would be worse off without all the different characters that make these events what they are. If people can play with the likes of Mike the mouth and phil hellmuth, then you"re just a *****cat.....Baby!!!!!!
The only question here really is, do you want to play any more live events? I think you probably do, and i also think you should, hell you might even win one, then mine would be a double, followed by a chaser capped off with a bottle of red, ok
see you soon
Paul
P.S. I want some of that fishmoney, the lads are talking of ;D
The long description of a very mild cat, as Tom Jones asked, "What"s new *****cat? whoa.........oh"
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Hi Steve
I think there are many who would like to support you, including me. The question is what are we supporting? The drinking, the loudness, abusing other players? I have not had the pleasure or misfortune (depending on your viewpoint) to share a table with you at a live APAT event, so I dont really have first hand experience of the behaviour in question, although its always obvious to everyone when you are in the casino. You say you dont care, I think you care very much and I am disapponted that you cannot tone things down a little in consideration for APAT's wishes and those other players, boring or not, who we are trying to encourage to play APAT events. Many of these players are new to the game and we want them to have a positive experience. Am I sitting on the fence? Perhaps I am a bit, however there is a rich array of characters involved with APAT, please dont fall into the trap of thinking you are worth special consideration and that APAT will suffer as a result of you not playing in future. I hope you do decide to play future APAT events and receive no further bans.
Best wishes
Col
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I had my first live experience of playing against Scouse at DTD in the Virgin Festival and I believe he got 3 warnings that day.......including one for standing up !!
I know that he has had some bad experiences there and so I can understand his dislike of the place because you can only take as you find.
As for the ban, well......playing with this guy certainly gets you talking about him......you don"t forget him quickly, that"s for sure !!
But a ban ??......well if there was any threats made then yes, I would agree with a ban. But players being loud is surely part of the game for some people and it certainly is for Steve. To me, his talking, etc... is just part of his game as much as some of us like to wear sunglasses and a hat.
If he made no threats to anyone that day, then to ban him seems very harsh.
Personally, I have no problem with the guy and his loss means one less character at the tables. He is also a good player IMO.......Hmmm......thinking about it........BAN HIM FOR LIFE !!!!!
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I would be keen for you to play in more APAT events.
First three hours or so (that I was on your table) at DTD you added a lot in terms of banter/humour.
Table was pretty aggressive which is what the APAT needs.
The infamous AA showboat - mucked cards hand - had two players left in the hand - and your actions interferred with the rest of the play (I was not in the hand). After this was drawn to your attention your apologised - fair play - but other people"s tournament shouldn"t be affected by you looking to state your case and argue with the Tournament director (at length).
Summary - he ruled your hand mucked - and suggested you used a card protector.
Next 30 mins - the whole saga was pretty drawn out again affecting others mainly via boredom.
After which the game returned to normal ... again to a good mix of tricky and creative poker ...you raised with 44 I pushed back ... you folded ... I had AA.
You raised with AK ... I pushed back with AQ ... you held ...fair play ... hands shaken ... good game.
It was a good table with a blip in the middle ... let"s get rid of the blip.
Everyone wins.
Louis
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All very regrettable stuff, but possibly inevitable. I"d like to observe the passing of Scouse"s APAT experience through the medium of a baywatch montage. Please bow your heads.
[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f_vBZ7_iUp0[/youtube]
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Yes they do mix, and mix very well. Having characters in a tourney is good, If you dont think so............ then who made the rules, and as David Brent would say "Get a new rule book"
Putting a ban is not good for APAT poker. if they take away one of the "rare characters", then it does not make the events as exciting. We are all Part time players. Not exactly playing for big or life changing money anyway,
In the pro circuits around vegas etc. They have players like Mike Matasow and Phill Hellmuth. Imagine if they were told to tone it down.............
as far as i remember, you didnt actually hurt or threaten anyone, you gave me some banter a while ago online in the sunday league, and it was great. Nothing like a bit of banter anyway.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCUmINGae44
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCUmINGae44
HE!!!!
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I am going to sit on the fence, but with very good reason. I do not know if you have broken any rules that deserve a ban.
I for one would like to see a set of published rules which include guidance on what is and isn"t acceptable behaviour. I appreciate that not all eventualities can be covered but would relate it to a disciplinary process in the workplace where managers have to make decisions based on guidance outlined in disciplinary procedures, staff handbooks etc.
Before you start thinking I"ve gone mad I do speak from experience and have had to make difficult decisions ragarding discipline of staff. I am sure that any decision by APAT was not taken lightly and I am not questioning that decision. I am trying (probably poorly) to point out that we don"t know what is and isn"t allowed.
For example, I know organistions where staff are allowed to use the internet at work including social networking sites, auction sites, forums etc. I know other orgasnisations where the use of the internet is banned. In some organisations you can be fired for not wearing the correct uniform whilst in others you can wear whatever you wish. These things are usually set out in policys and communicated to staff so they know the rules. Break those rules and face the results.
We could even look at differences in laws of different countries. The age limits for drinking for example mean that it is against the law for someone to drink in one place but acceptable in another. Some countries find it perfectly acceptable for girls to be married and having children age 14 but in others this would be seen as outrageous.
So my challenge to the APAT team is to produce a set of rules for us to follow, and if we break them we know what to expect. If you want to delegate the task to a players committee then I would happily stand for election onto such a group. You may be of the view that this shouldn"t be needed and if so I envy your positive thinking but feel it a requirement to sustain the growth and success of what APAT has achieved.
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I for one would like to see a set of published rules which include guidance on what is and isn"t acceptable behaviour.
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I think it"s a reasonable idea in theory, but in practice I think it would contain a lot of things which would need interpretation - to do with "respect" and not interfering with the game, and above all else "reasonableness" for example.
So I don"t think it should be a priority, after all, almost every member of APAT has managed to avoid getting banned without having to have a set of published rules to check.
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I for one would like to see a set of published rules which include guidance on what is and isn"t acceptable behaviour.
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I think it"s a reasonable idea in theory, but in practice I think it would contain a lot of things which would need interpretation - to do with "respect" and not interfering with the game, and above all else "reasonableness" for example.
So I don"t think it should be a priority, after all, almost every member of APAT has managed to avoid getting banned without having to have a set of published rules to check.
I agree with Stuart - as punishment is being metered, I think that for the sake of transparency, we need to understand the Code of Conduct to which we are expected to adhere, and to then understand what the consequences may be for any subsequent breach.
Jon - to your point, I accept that "almost every member of APAT has managed to avoid getting banned without having to have a set of published rules to check", however there have been a number of bans imposed this season so far (Walsallx2, Edinburgh, DTD - are the ones I can recall), and each time there has been a significant debating thread started as to the legitimacy of the behaviour and the consequent actions. I think that having a clear guide as to the expected conduct of members would overcome any doubt around behaviour issues and punishments.
To Steve"s original post, I agree with most on this thread. I don"t like to hear explicit language in mixed company, and do appreciate being able to hear myself think at times..... HOWEVER, I really do have no problem with you at the table (or anywhere else) - in fact I think you are a genuine nice guy! I think you"re opinions of DTD are tainted unfairly - I believe it to be the best card room in UK, and possibly even further afield than that. Not sure what you"re trying to achieve with this thread - you won"t get a petition for your return, and you won"t get balanced responses... only your supporters or the fence sitters will respond - those who dislike you will not respond.
The ban is imposed. See it out, and I hope to meet you again next season. Good luck.
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I do not think a rulebook is the way to go for poker tournaments. What would the rule book say about drinking? never mind volume levels, standing up, time wasting, table etiquette. I think such a system would be detrimental to the game and rules could be applied too strictly and potentially spoil the fun element of APAT tounaments.
It would be helpful for APAT members to understand what behaviour is receiving a ban. What was the crime? In the past this has been kept reasonably quiet for the privacy of the individual involved. I would like to see more openness, in terms of fairness and consistency, I dont need to know the detail of infringements, just perhaps a general statement such as ban received for insulting players at table or excessive drunkiness. Perhaps an APAT committee consisting of members should have a voice in these matters.
I think a ban should be a last resort, and I would hope that any APAT member would have received several warnings before any ban is imposed. I have witnessed unpleasant behaviour several times at APAT events, and the players involved have gotten away with it, bcause no fuss was made by other players or casino staff. There is certainly the potential for certain players to be higher profile than others, and therefore their behaviour is more noticable, and easier for others to criticise.
I remember earlier APAT events where Tikay made an announcement before each tournament reminding everyone about the APAT ethos and wishing everyone good luck. I thought this was good idea and set the scene for the tournament, I think it should be re-introduced for future APAT events. ps im not volunteering lol :)
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If i may add some ramblings of a newbie to Apat..
Last year i played a GUKPT sat for the Newcastle stage and whilst playing began chatting to 2 guys "Scouse3645" and "GiMac" who"s wit and enthusiasim for the game was something i had rarely encountered before online, honestly at one point i offered to take scouse for a drinking tour of Newcastle ::).
I left the table merry and pleased that i had met poker playing gents who shared the same attitude as myself towards having fun and banter regardless of the poker outcome, before that point i had the general feeling that poker was stuffy and devoid of life alas speaking to scouse provided me with the incentive to try out other poker mediums such as pub poker, casino poker and ultimately APAT with high hopes of meeting other players who were like minded.
Now i am certainly not saying that scouse is any kind of role model to potential new members but as a guy who recognises that poker is a game to have fun being part of and an excellent way of meeting new people, i tip my hat to you sir...
I would most certainly not be part of APAT if it wasn"t for him and his craic and am disappointed that i won"t be able to shake his hand at Bolton.
Although i sit on the fence with regards to his punishment for his misdemeanours. :)
Disclaimer: this is written after a 12 hour nightshift :-\
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Just to echo - transparency would be good.
I was left with the feeling that the Edinburgh stuff had been washed under the carpet.
Announcement at the start of events obviously good.
Prefer if people were given time off the table as a "penalty" at the time - rather than after the events bans.
In terms of pro poker - there are some "hell raisers" - but rare to see drunk people playing on TV.
I don"t think (general case) that being drunk helps in playing poker - but as long as the game flows and people aren"t abusive - fair enough (they are likely giving an edge to their opponents).
Not mad for a committee - but guidance would be good.
Louis
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I agree with all of Colin"s points. A rulebook for behaviour could not be specific enough to be useful. Also, I think a little more information on why bans have been given would be appropriate.
Having always been drawn at the opposite end of the casino, I have never witnessed Scouse close-up, other than his over-exuberant celebration of Liverpool scoring against Portsmouth (which obviously warranted a life-ban) so I cannot comment on him. However, I am glad that this thread has seen some reasonable points and hasn"t turned into a piling-in of Steve"s known mates drowning out other views.
The main reason I am posting is to disagree with the comments about swearing. This isn"t the 1950s. Objections to "bad" language are out of date and the concept of moderation in mixed company is dead. Swearing has an important role to play in poker and it would be pretty odd if words used every night on mainstream comedy and drama programmes were banned from poker rooms.
Also, excellent contribution by WarBwastard. Some good points raised there.
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I know only third hand of any bans and the reasons why they were handed out. So I won"t make any comments on the people who have received them or why. I will comment on common sense, which Apat seams to be full of. The team have handled as far as i know, all the incidents excellently and how they see fit. They have also tried to keep these low key, to which I agree. I don"t think a rule book would be a good thing, as mentioned it is open to interperatation. I forsee this could lead to people requesting bans to Apat for players they feel agrieved by??? By peoples twist on the rules, you could hyperthetically end up with a 2/3 of field ban on the next event. Yes this is taking it to the extreme, but do we really want to go down that road? Apat give up plenty of their time so that we can have a good time, they really do not need to be having meetings upon meeting/emails and phone calls re: disgruntled players. Therefore taking away the the time better spent doing exactly what they do for us all already.
All players should set their own standards, we are not angels and sure we will all slip from time to time. Your standards may not meet mine and vice versa, but i will make allowances as we are all different beings. So back to Steve, obviously things have happened, you have asked, and you are going to have to make some changes and allowances for other players at future events. I want to see you there and so do others as above etc, so use your training and adjust to the surroundings.
I would hope this is the last thread on this site with regards to discipline and bans. We can all live in hope. :)
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Before I offer my views I would like to stress that these are my opinions on the topic. My position within APAT doesn"t include any of these disciplinary issues, therefore I would hope I can give a balanced view on the subject.
I am also not going to comment on Steve"s personal situation as I do not think there is anything to be gained from this, other than to say that it is regrettably that APAT ever has to exclude individuals from their tournaments and this decision will not have been taken lightly.
As far as rules and regulations go and the disciplinary procedures, I think it is a real shame that this has become a problem this season.
However, player behaviour is a problem that nearly every poker tour has to deal with at some point and APAT is no different. When it comes down to it this is a matter of respect and unfortunately this seems to be a greater issue when alcohol is involvement, not always, but I don"t think it"s a coincidence.
When I say respect, I refer to a level of respect that should be shown to any other human being, in whatever circumstances. This covers a whole host of situations, but all of which are really common sense and shouldn"t need to be written in black and white.
In terms of a poker environment, each venue has a level of unacceptable behaviour that will result in action being taken by the staff or tournament director. When we turn up to play an APAT event at a venue, we do represent APAT as a whole whether you want to or not and the actions of a few can leave the venue with a negative viewpoint of everyone.
I don"t want this to happen and I believe it is the responsibility of every player to address these issues at the time and not allow them to escalate to a point where APAT needs to take disciplinary action.
There have been arguments made that table talk and aggression is part of players "game" and I am not disputing that at all having railed many APAT tournaments, but if all players considered how their actions impact on other players enjoyment of the games, then perhaps a sensible balance can be found.
An ideal scenario is that bad beats and cards aside, I want everyone to leave an APAT weekend feeling that they had a good time, both socially and pokerwise. Maybe that is asking too much due to the wide ranging characters that play, but it is because of the diversity of player that makes APAT what it is.
In every situation that has arisen this season, each individual was spoken to discreetly and politely about their behaviour by either the venue staff or one of the APAT team as soon as they were made aware of it. Nobody wants to see players excluded from tournaments or receiving table bans whilst they are still playing in a tournament and to the best of my knowledge, APAT have ensured players see out their tournament.
However, in my opinion, those players that do not take on board the polite requests of venue staff and the APAT team only have themselves to blame and action has to be taken.
I would stress that I have seen both sides of this during the season, as a number of players when asked to "tone it down" a bit, did so without any bother whatsoever and without any impact on anyone"s enjoyment of the weekend, including their own.
We, as a poker community, just need to appreciate how diverse we are and that everyone who plays APAT events is different. We have different expectations of the weekend, different poker styles, different motivations for being there, different personalities and somehow as players we need to ensure that everyone leaves wanting to play again and having enjoyed the experience.
That can"t be too difficult, can it ?
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Could you expand on that a bit, Leigh?
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Well said Leigh, no it shouldn"t be too difficult.
I feel I must respond to MintTrav re the language issue. Okay we are in the 21st century and the proliferation of profanity in both everyday life and the media has become common place, it doesn"t though, in many peoples minds make it acceptable. I have played team sports all my life, and have heard and used "bad" language many many times, be it on the field of play in frustration, or in dressing room banter, but would never dream of using that language in everyday life, either at work, or at play, and certainly not in mixed company.
So sorry mate, I disagree with you on that.
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He who is without sin .. cast the first stone
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I agree with all of Colin"s points. A rulebook for behaviour could not be specific enough to be useful. Also, I think a little more information on why bans have been given would be appropriate.
Having always been drawn at the opposite end of the casino, I have never witnessed Scouse close-up, other than his over-exuberant celebration of Liverpool scoring against Portsmouth (which obviously warranted a life-ban) so I cannot comment on him. However, I am glad that this thread has seen some reasonable points and hasn"t turned into a piling-in of Steve"s known mates drowning out other views.
The main reason I am posting is to disagree with the comments about swearing. This isn"t the 1950s. Objections to "bad" language are out of date and the concept of moderation in mixed company is dead. Swearing has an important role to play in poker and it would be pretty odd if words used every night on mainstream comedy and drama programmes were banned from poker rooms.
Also, excellent contribution by WarBwastard. Some good points raised there.
"Swearing has an important role to play in poker" - what role?
The odd swear word is hardly an issue to me - but if things become abusive - you do need to take some action- quiet word best (if it works).
L
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I agree with all of Colin"s points. A rulebook for behaviour could not be specific enough to be useful. Also, I think a little more information on why bans have been given would be appropriate.
Having always been drawn at the opposite end of the casino, I have never witnessed Scouse close-up, other than his over-exuberant celebration of Liverpool scoring against Portsmouth (which obviously warranted a life-ban) so I cannot comment on him. However, I am glad that this thread has seen some reasonable points and hasn"t turned into a piling-in of Steve"s known mates drowning out other views.
The main reason I am posting is to disagree with the comments about swearing. This isn"t the 1950s. Objections to "bad" language are out of date and the concept of moderation in mixed company is dead. Swearing has an important role to play in poker and it would be pretty odd if words used every night on mainstream comedy and drama programmes were banned from poker rooms.
Also, excellent contribution by WarBwastard. Some good points raised there.
"Swearing has an important role to play in poker" - what role?
The odd swear word is hardly an issue to me - but if things become abusive - you do need to take some action- quiet word best (if it works).
L
Its not the swear words themselves but the emotion behind them that makes the difference. This is why I would be against a blanket rule on swearing.
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he went on a bit so I"ve edited out..... ;)
We, as a poker community, just need to appreciate how diverse we are and that everyone who plays APAT events is different. We have different expectations of the weekend, different poker styles, different motivations for being there, different personalities and somehow as players we need to ensure that everyone leaves wanting to play again and having enjoyed the experience.
That can"t be too difficult, can it ?
I agree Leigh it shouldn"t be difficult. Unfortunatly though, it often is.
As you rightly point out, everyone is different therefore understanding of what is acceptable, and what isn"t, is also different for each individual.
I am not proposing a "rule book", just a set of guidance on what consititutes unacceptable behavior and what actions may be taken. I like Steve"s termonology - we need a "Code of Conduct".
Stuart
p.s. If this isn"t produced before the European championships I intend to sing Flower o" Scotland each time a Scottish player is all-in because I consider this to be acceptable ;D
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Ste - you know I like you, I think you"re a great lad. But you overstepped the mark at the APAT event at DTD, and if I"d been the TD or floor manager, I"d have thrown you out earlier and ironically, you probably wouldn"t have been given an APAT ban. To criticise DTD is bit churlish imo, and I think their mistakes were less of an issue than your transgressions.
Have a drink and have a laugh by all means. You know I love to have a drink as well. But if drinking interferes with others" ability to enjoy the poker and the event, then I think it"s too much.
Poker clubs/casinos are private clubs in essence. They don"t have to publish their rules, and can change them or add them at any time they want. If they don"t want you as a member, then tough (unless it contravenes the law). Surely the same goes for APAT? If someone is warned, told and then told again that their behaviour is going against APAT ethos/rules/whatever, but you continue to disregard that - then why point the finger elsewhere? Would any of the armed forces accept someone breaking the rules on a number of occasions without any punishment being dealt out?
I"d love to know the number of people who"ve played in APAT events since the first event at the Broadway in 2006 (anyone remember who won that one?) - but I think you can count on one hand the number of people who"ve been suspended or banned from APAT events or from the venues where the events have been held. I think this shows the rules aren"t draconian or unnecessary, and that adding to the published rules to create a "code of conduct" isn"t required.
Ste, take your punishment like a man and then come back next season, make another Day 2 (bless ya), and go on and win one the bloody things.
As for swearing, I think the odd expletive in exasperation or frustration is hardly the end of the world. A tirade of language aimed at someone at the table is very much out of order - and should be punished accordingly.
Anyway, look forward to meeting up with again soon and the first beer"s on me ;)
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I don"t know you Steve, and can only speak from my own experiences.
I briefly shared a table with you at Walsall and there was an incident where you were involved in a hand with another player. After the hand played out you quite vociferously made your opponent aware of how badly you thought he played it - "retardedly" iifc. That incident made me feel really uncomfortable, and there was a strained atmosphere at the table for a little while afterwards.
As I said, I don"t know you, but that was my first impression of you. It became clear a little while later that you had meant the comments in jest, but that was not how they came over at the time, and it wasn"t something that was nice to witness at an APAT event.
FWIW, as a woman I have no problem with bad language per se, and I certainly wasn"t offended or upset in any way when you had your little shout at the TV later on in the day - in my experience it"s men who seem to be more concerned about language in "mixed company". Had the language been directed at someone else in the tournament, well that"s a different kettle of fish.
I"m not quite sure what your motive is in asking for these opinions, and I hope you don"t take anything I"ve said as a personal criticism - it"s just time and place stuff really.
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dont personally mind the odd swear word as long as it isnt directed aggressively at me lol,,,,wsop,,,i believe is one warning for swearing,,then a ten min table ban.
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Steve - I was on the table with you at DTD. On your immediate left. I was the bloke that folded JJ (durrr!). Although you were a bit pissed, I didn"t mind the banter. Certainly more fun that a totally quiet table. I got the feeling that the rest of the table wished I had called and knocked you out!
I can see why you"ve been banned - I think you might have upset quite a few people. Personally, I"ll miss you at Bolton. Take the medicine and I hope to see you next year.
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i said i wasnt going to reply on this but just want to clarify a couple of things . the point of this thread was if the concenus was people would rather i wasnt at apat events i would stay away. And as for people not posting on here that do want me to stay away , i would hope they had the morale fibre to complain when i ask them too and not just at the casino. Please do seriously i wont take offence. I have seen , done and been told a lot worse trhan you can. And as for taking my medicine and taking it on the chin i always do even if i dont agree with it.
thanks for all comments all taken on board
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I briefly shared a table with you at Walsall and there was an incident where you were involved in a hand with another player. After the hand played out you quite vociferously made your opponent aware of how badly you thought he played it - "retardedly" iifc. That incident made me feel really uncomfortable, and there was a strained atmosphere at the table for a little while afterwards.
As I said, I don"t know you, but that was my first impression of you. It became clear a little while later that you had meant the comments in jest, but that was not how they came over at the time,
I was that person and wrote this in my blog at the time.
A loud fella named Scouse was keeping everyone entertained and I clashed with him in two hands where I made good value calls on the river with pocket pairs and this got him a little excited and he started berating me for my play. Out of order stuff really, with a few insults and use of the words retard and idiot, I love that banter/wind-up stuff though and replied with a "not the idiot who bet with nothing" and "I wasn"t playing the cards, just the player", give him credit though he came back with "well played Phil" which I thought was a good line. However he didn"t know me at the time and I think several players would have taken offence at his comments. He did buy me and a couple of others a beer after he was knocked out and then watched the footy where he got a little excited and expressed himself FULLY! There were a number of players who swore loudly throughout the tourney including a lady so drunk she fell asleep at our table and had to be given a nudge every time it was her turn to act. A few other incidents happened and now there is a fully fledged thread on APAT forum regarding "beer and poker". I personally like to have characters at a poker table and beer often "creates" more character, although swearing out loudly never sits comfortably with me in a public place
Characters to me at poker make it exciting and as you say Steve it would be boring with a whole table who at the most utter one word comments. Loudness is just acceptable as quietness in my opinion, but loud peoples thoughts are obviously heard by everyone so it is important that these comments are not going to spoil anybody"s w/end.
As for swearing, it is poker and we are all 18+ and the actual swearing doesn"t offend me but it does set a tone that isn"t pleasant and I think it should be actively discouraged by all involved in APAT, both the power lords and us minions, the players. However a WSOP style auto ban would be pathetically Yankee, lets just stick to some common sense British Fair Play and values.
Didn"t make day 2 at DTD so can"t comment, but if you were a little out of order then following Walsall I think the APAT Lords were obliged to correctly impose a sanction/ban.
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are miss ya mate be drinking on my own then lol woop woop are win bolton 4 ya son keep right on till the of the road
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i find it hard to comment as i dont know you personally but i have a certain moment that happened at walsall i would like to show some reflection on. it was my second live apat event and the dragon (my girlfriend by the way) wanted to come as i convinced her that these are social events and the crowd is very pleasant. i only lasted two hours and then met up with the dragon. as i was telling her about my bad beat(she was not listening btw) the football was on and you were getting a bit excited in the moment of the game. to me this his bloke behaviour but the dragon seemed slightly scared to be in the enviroment at that time, the game then finished and everyone relaxed(including the dragon).
as we left that evening we were talking about the day and she said that she was not convinced on the social side of things and kept wondering why i found the day entertaining. that moment was her first impression on poker (even though she wont play) and she is sticking to it. i will admit your behaviour can seem intidimating and to some peoplethis moment(or others?) will stick in their mind and they possibly will not want to play anothe event which is a shame.
i do hope to see you again soon as poker is all about characters and you will be missed
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Open letter to Scouse
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I wasn"t at DTD so I"m not going to comment on that, but we"ve shared a table before, both live and online, so I thought I"d add my comments to those already listed.
Its fair to say I"m at the opposite end of the noise scale from you, but I don"t regard that as a problem. I"m naturally very quiet and prefer to say as little as possible at the table (unless of course someone calls me a fish when I will often reply with a few choice "compliments"), whilst in your own words, you will always be loud whether sober or drunk. What I"ve never really got my head around is exactly what motivates you when you are playing poker. Are you there to win and make a few quid, or is it purely a social thing to you? If what you want more than anything else is to have a few beers and a bit of a laugh, then you are in the wrong environment; there are plenty of bars in any town in the land that will accomodate you. If you are serious about getting the most out of your poker then you are a bloody idiot. Most APAT nationals will have a wide range of players. There are always one or two newbies who are out of their depth,large numbers of solid,competent players, some with a few decent wins to their name and a handful who are virtually professional. Without naming names, there are players I"m confident I"ll take chips off and some who I know could make life very difficult for me. For what its worth, I happen to think you are up there with any other APAT player I have come across and are capable of giving anyone a damned hard game. I just can"t work out what goes on inside your head. If you really want to make the most of your poker skills, accept your punishment without complaint, then when you come back, try playing without alcohol because only then will you get the most from your talents. I couldn"t really give a toss if you think I"m getting above myself here, but you"ve asked for opinions and this is mine.
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i said i wasnt going to reply on this but just want to clarify a couple of things . the point of this thread was if the concenus was people would rather i wasnt at apat events i would stay away. And as for people not posting on here that do want me to stay away , i would hope they had the morale fibre to complain when i ask them too and not just at the casino. Please do seriously i wont take offence. I have seen , done and been told a lot worse trhan you can. And as for taking my medicine and taking it on the chin i always do even if i dont agree with it.
thanks for all comments all taken on board
OK my turn, but i really can"t be arsed to write an essay like everyone else, so i"ll mkeep it short and sweet. .. .
Ban the *****. .. he"s nothing but an abusive drunk. ;) ;) ;)
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ok....... loads of issues raised here.
Firstly- i have played with you a number of times you have always been loud- not a problem for me- if it had ever got too nloud- ipod in i say. dont know the specifics of the reasons for the ban , but have too much respect for des, tighty etc to think they would not have given it for no reason or without giving it much consideration.
As far as coming back to future events - yes and yeas again. As a friend my advice is ...quieten down? - nah.... be more aware that some of what you say directly to people may be considered offensive by them. (I for one would not take kindly to being called a retard by someone I dont know- as commented by another poster- wasnt there, so if that did occur tried to refrain). I personally feel that you have no wish to upset people its just that what would not upset you does upset others. You feel that people should tell you at the time - not everyone is as assertive as you, and also standing up to the large(!) loud scouse bloke who you know is a member of her majestys armed forces (trained killer??) is not evryones first course of action. Just be aware that not everyone knows you and that you are just joking, and a top bloke, and therefore may be a tad intimidated.
As far as I am concerned the standards of behaviour at apat are far higher thatn in poker in general. Having said that with a steady influx of inexperienced live players some guidance as to ettiquette be be helpful. It might also be helpful to remind some more experienced players . IMHO poor ettiquette/manners leads to as much upset as anything else at the poker table.
here would be some of the things that may be worth considering (some of which are my pet hates, some of which I have seen cause ++ upset at recent APAT events)
swearing at or insulting other players not acceptable (unless it is big Al of course)
(I think that swearing at the table does happen and would be difficult to ban totally.)
Slow rolling- if you have the nuts at show down flip your hand quickly. if there is an allin before you and you are are last to act holding AA dont take 30 secs of ham acting before calling its not funny and the guy whos shoved with kk may lose his sense of humour
Dont comment on other peoples hands during hands during play if you are not involved in the hand ( If you want to comment afterwards I refer you to point one "why didnt you raise the turn- you played that hand like f****g muppett" is not always well received especially if they have just lost the hand)
Acting out of turn- it happens - but on the 5th occasion by the same person it gets a bit wearing, pay attention and turn your ipod off if you cant multitask.
Dont take 2 mins over every decision ( take your time on the big decisions by all means - accompanied by soz guys just need a bit of time over this one also helps)
Dont fold out of turn (including if someone has anouced raise- your fold .. and others gives more info the raiser wait for the raise or amount to be announced)
plenty of others just pretty sure have bored evryone stupid by now. we dont need anything formal- maybe jst an ettiquette thread which can be vetted by the Mods giving the offivial view on whats acceptable not just accepting my somewhat jaundiuced views.
NB most of thes should be policed by cardroom staff with sinbin penalties enforced, but sadly are not merely reinforcing poor behaviour
And Steve come back as soon as the ban is completed- you will be missed
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No
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swearing at or insulting other players not acceptable (unless it is big Al of course)
(I think that swearing at the table does happen and would be difficult to ban totally.)
oh and this
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You going to Dublin hopefully? shaping up to be an epic weekend?
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In answer to the question.....
"yes"
See you after the ban
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You going to Dublin hopefully? shaping up to be an epic weekend?
FML he"s not going there as well is he and I was hoping for a nice quiet cultural weekend ::)
To answer your question Steve .... No!! but I think I am in the same boat, so fry elsewhere ;)
I was in the DTD deepstack at the weekend and spent a few hours on a table with Lawrence Gosney now if APATers think that Steve is a little loud and brash, get used to it and add it too your game because it happens at all levels. All that Gosney said washed over me as I was taking his chips, just stick your ipod in and concentrate (this usually gives off the wrong perception that you are miserable but I can live with that ;))
I"ve played on the same table as Steve and he is entertaining to say the least, I don"t agree with foul mouths at the table but I cannot remember Bayleaf being that abusive when I"ve been with him so maybe a faux pas.
See you in Dublin and Blackpool GUK Steve 8)
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You going to Dublin hopefully? shaping up to be an epic weekend?
FML he"s not going there as well is he and I was hoping for a nice quiet cultural weekend ::)
To answer your question Steve .... No!! but I think I am in the same boat, so fry elsewhere ;)
I was in the DTD deepstack at the weekend and spent a few hours on a table with Lawrence Gosney now if APATers think that Steve is a little loud and brash, get used to it and add it too your game because it happens at all levels. All that Gosney said washed over me as I was taking his chips, just stick your ipod in and concentrate (this usually gives off the wrong perception that you are miserable but I can live with that ;))
I"ve played on the same table as Steve and he is entertaining to say the least, I don"t agree with foul mouths at the table but I cannot remember Bayleaf being that abusive when I"ve been with him so maybe a faux pas.
See you in Dublin and Blackpool GUK Steve 8)
haha, lawrence cleans up round the leeds poker scene, i ended up on the final table in my first ever live game at a mental £10 rebuy...he just kept abusing me, mostly in jest mind! didnt realise who he was such a well known player until a few years later!
as for this matter...its starting to get a little boring
see you next year scouse, your a fantastic bloke...99% of the time you make apat the experience apat has become renowned for.
just dont put liverpool on in a casino again! ;)
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... you make apat the experience apat has become renowned for.
...
really?
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lol i actually quite like Lawrence, you just need to know how to take him or just ignore him.
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lol i actually quite like Lawrence, you just need to know how to take him or just ignore him.
Bit surprised to read this, cos I shared a table with him a few months ago and he never said a word.
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lol i actually quite like Lawrence, you just need to know how to take him or just ignore him.
Bit surprised to read this, cos I shared a table with him a few months ago and he never said a word.
Scared of you obv but he was on fine form on Saturday then when he bust out another Leeds player sat in his seat!! I recognised the chiseled good looks but couldn"t place him then whispers went round the table "its the online legend that is SirPerceval" but he was just as easy as Gosney to take chips off but a lot quieter ;)
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With regard to the wider issue of acceptable behaviour - there"s been some comments about just using an iPod if you"re uncomfortable with the language being used, but I don"t think that"s fair. It"s not for the sociable to accept and or ignore the unsociable, is it? The onus should always be on the anti-social person to make the adjustment surely?
I have a mouth like a Polish taxi driver but I do make an attempt to curb my language until I know for sure I"m familiar enough with the people around me that I can be confident it won"t offend and even then I try and reserve the really juicy swears for the bad beats or when someone"s farted.
With regards to Scouse, I think he either over-estimates how many people know him or know of him, or doesn"t care. Let"s give him the benefit of the doubt and say he just forgets that there"s 1,000"s of APAT members now and only 200 at a time at any particular event so maybe Scouse in full flow is met by laughter from the handful of people in attendance who know him, the other 180+ react with a mixture of incredulity and fear.
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...
With regards to Scouse, I think he either over-estimates how many people know him or know of him, ...
hence
... you make apat the experience apat has become renowned for.
...
really?
It"d be objectively sad to "lose" anyone from APAT live events but if Scouse decides not to go there are plenty of people to take his place. It won"t change anything about APAT or the APAT experience, it"s just up to him to decide whether he wants to or not.
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He was really quiet on line last night, due to a dodgy connection!! And incidently because he couldn"t play his normal game finished with his highest place finish of the season! ;)
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lol i actually quite like Lawrence, you just need to know how to take him or just ignore him.
Bit surprised to read this, cos I shared a table with him a few months ago and he never said a word.
Scared of you obv but he was on fine form on Saturday then when he bust out another Leeds player sat in his seat!! I recognised the chiseled good looks but couldn"t place him then whispers went round the table "its the online legend that is SirPerceval" but he was just as easy as Gosney to take chips off but a lot quieter ;)
chiseled good looks, online legend, easy to take chips off, quiet
Is there anything true in the above statement? ???
oh yes, the bit about the chips! >:(
As for Gosney, I played with him at the last Deepstack and he was quiet then also.
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As far as coming back to future events - yes and yes again. As a friend my advice is ...quieten down? - nah.... be more aware that some of what you say directly to people may be considered offensive by them. (I for one would not take kindly to being called a retard by someone I dont know- as commented by another poster- wasnt there, so if that did occur tried to refrain). I personally feel that you have no wish to upset people its just that what would not upset you does upset others. You feel that people should tell you at the time - not everyone is as assertive as you, and also standing up to the large(!) loud scouse bloke who you know is a member of her majestys armed forces (trained killer??) is not evryones first course of action. Just be aware that not everyone knows you and that you are just joking, and a top bloke, and therefore may be a tad intimidated.
Rudds has said it all for me steve.
Make sure you come back, and see you next year.
btw at least you dont have worry about missing the liverpool v united game !!
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Firstly, Gosney.... what a complete pr!ck !!! Blackpool GUKPT £100 rebuy last year. After calling him down and doubling up I asked to see his cards and gave me abuse, saying I"d never play on a table with anyone as good as him ever again in my life!! WTF!!! (How wrong was he?!) Then took a further 3 lots of his rebuys before the table split up. Then at Newcastle GUKPT main event one of his sh!tstirring mates told him I"d written about it and he gave me more abuse so I told him that everyone who read my comments knows I think he"s a "t0sser" to which he offered me outside to which I replied "you really think Im scared of you, you fat c%$^?" He didn"t follow up on it! So first impressions can last as LG is the only person in poker that I wouldn"t mind losing from the game. One (one ffs) WSOP bracelet obviously went to his head. He was loud, arrogant, threatening and abusive and not in an amusing way.
I swore I wouldn"t be bullied by anyone ever again after leaving school but I rarely have to stand up to anyone, as adults are usually quite reasonable.
Secondly and more importantly your question Steve.
Should read "Scouse and APAT live events and alcoholic drinks do they mix???"
As a friend (maybe ex-friend if he takes this badly) I can pretty much tolerate all of the loudness, drunkenness and any kind of "banter" from Steve, but not everyone is as fortunate to know his manner or is as thickskinned as me or could answer back to such a big confident character. In a way, I could have gained from being on his table at the end of day2 at DTD but instead tried to play down his boisterousness, not use it to my advantage. GUKPT: different kettle of fish!
I"m all for an ever-evovling Code of Conduct which could be written on this site and doesn"t need to be too specific (eg any player behaving inappropriately, and/or receiving a warning and/or penalty, at an APAT event is liable to further sanctions or may be banned at the discretion of APAT for a period of their determining)
I was on Steve"s right for the last couple of levels on day2 at DTD and yes he was very loud, was warned to quieten down (which he did try to do, but alcohol levels made this a very difficult undertaking) but he did receive a penalty which kept him from playing the last round of hands, served his penalty and came back the next day and agreed to stay off the booze.
It was a long day of poker and the last 3 levels were a little(!?) too loud and constant (I got the feeling this was the real problem) but from what I heard not abusive. I know Steve can"t make a pint last as long as me (no-one can), but maybe fewer would solve the problem on such a long day of poker (but this is the responsibility of the individual). Maybe a couple of less toxic drinks between the beers?
Personally I"m all for alcohol-free events but are the other players and an even bigger question, are the venues?
As for the ban, I do not question APAT's reasoning or integrity, furthermore most players don"t give anyone the slightest chance to affect their eligibilty, some cut it much closer, you take your choice!
So my opinion is I can cope with it no problem but were it someone I didn"t know I may not be so tolerant (did any players or dealers actually complain to the TD?)
As said in previous posts we all have a duty to represent APAT in a proper manner, it seems alcohol is the usual common factor when it goes wrong (albeit in a very small % of cases)
Honest opinion, like it or lump it
;)
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Nice post John.
I promise when I win a bracelet next year I won"t let it go to my head ;D