Amateur Poker Association & Tour
Poker Forum => Strategy => Topic started by: Honeybadg on November 07, 2009, 14:21:56 PM
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10 handed Home Game
£1/2 no limit.
We are playing with optional Live Straddles.
I am effectively UTG with £1/2 blinds plus £4 small straddle and £8 big straddle in play.
I have £650 - AKs
I limp for £8.
We gain a further 4 limpers for £8 (including the small straddle)
Stacks are c£300, c£250, c£500, c£450.
Big Straddle who has £173 raises to £63.
What should I do?
L
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jam it in his eye
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Raise to £25- £30 when you"re first to act, now I repop to 200 calling a shove from anyone
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I"d raise to £150, and would expect this would be enough to make the limpers behind you Fold. If you face a shove by any of the other limpers for anything above £340, and if £8 Straddler Calls ... hmmm tricky spot, but at least you"ll have paid the minimum to find out that you MIGHT not be a favourite in the hand.
Jamming in this spot seems a pretty loose way to be donking off anything from 125 to 250 Big Blinds IMO. A race for £175 is fine, for more than that ... I"d have to take everything I know about the players into serious consideration before making any decision on committing a BuyIn.
Is this a £1k+ per person type night?
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Been in the pub all day but let me get this right.
Big straddle after his straddle has £240 or so left (before he"s to act). With blinds being £1,£2 straddle £4 straddle £8 = £15
with me to act with AK I"d make it around £35 in an attempt to take blinds and straddles
you"ll probably find big straddle may fight back or at least defend but with AK (and having almost triple his stack) and in position I"m happy to gamble if he shoves or call
Should he call it will be approx £75 pot so should you miss and he makes a move and you think your beat you can still get away from it
but I am very very drunk at the moment andwill reread this in the morning
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I think you should open raise here (unless you are limping because you think someone will definitely raise it up) to say £30. As played, I make it £180 with a view to getting it in here. In cash games AK is the nuts (isn"t it??). The only thing you are worried about is KK or AA, and given your holding this is unlikely. even if the have KK, you can still hit an A to win. Obv v AA you are toast but thats just a cooler...reload!!
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I"d raise to £150, and would expect this would be enough to make the limpers behind you Fold. If you face a shove by any of the other limpers for anything above £340, and if £8 Straddler Calls ... hmmm tricky spot, but at least you"ll have paid the minimum to find out that you MIGHT not be a favourite in the hand.
Jamming in this spot seems a pretty loose way to be donking off anything from 125 to 250 Big Blinds IMO. A race for £175 is fine, for more than that ... I"d have to take everything I know about the players into serious consideration before making any decision on committing a BuyIn.
Is this a £1k+ per person type night?
The home game has acquired a strange set up ... start point is £100 pot limit £1/£2, but when you hit £50 you can re-buy to £200 ... unlimited re-buys.
Each night everyone puts £20 in for a jackpot which is paid for 4 of a kind or better - this rolls over - when paid has to go on the table!
Last night our dealer was only available from 7.30pm-Midnight ... so we changed to NL at that point.
Last time I looked at the stats average position was +/- £350
I think last night was a little steeper.
Big win in my time +£1,362 ... biggest defeat -£1,500 (even with a £600 jackpot win)
There has been talk of changing the buy-in to start deeper but the early £100 flips are quite fun!
Very friendly and fun game.
L
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In terms of the hand itself ... I liked the limp ... but agree I should have re-raised to isolate the Big Straddle.
Instead I elected to flat call the £63 ... everyone else folds.
Flop is Q86 ... two diamonds ... I have AK spades ...
Big Straddle all in for £110 ... do I call?
L
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U shud never let ur self get in this spot!! Raise pre, as played make it 180 and get them in as fast as poss!! U cnt flat the 63, just jam 100% of the time thr.
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In terms of the hand itself ... I liked the limp ... but agree I should have re-raised to isolate the Big Straddle.
Instead I elected to flat call the £63 ... everyone else folds.
Flop is Q86 ... two diamonds ... I have AK spades ...
Big Straddle all in for £110 ... do I call?
L
That"s a pretty easy fold
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U shud never let ur self get in this spot!! Raise pre, as played make it 180 and get them in as fast as poss!! U cnt flat the 63, just jam 100% of the time thr.
I am not sure about the raise pre flop ... for the following reasons.
a/ I don"t want to create a massive pot and end in a coin flip.
b/ I am happy to play a mutli way pot with hands like AKs - which may get paid well if it hits.
Does anyone change the way they play this if in the early stages of a deep stack tournament?
L
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In terms of the hand itself ... I liked the limp ... but agree I should have re-raised to isolate the Big Straddle.
Instead I elected to flat call the £63 ... everyone else folds.
Flop is Q86 ... two diamonds ... I have AK spades ...
Big Straddle all in for £110 ... do I call?
L
As played, easy fold and brush-it-off that you"ve only lost 10% of your stack.
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U shud never let ur self get in this spot!! Raise pre, as played make it 180 and get them in as fast as poss!! U cnt flat the 63, just jam 100% of the time thr.
I am not sure about the raise pre flop ... for the following reasons.
a/ I don"t want to create a massive pot and end in a coin flip.
b/ I am happy to play a mutli way pot with hands like AKs - which may get paid well if it hits.
Does anyone change the way they play this if in the early stages of a deep stack tournament?
L
You"re also gonna end up paying people off a lot when you hit TPTK and they hit their 2 pair or whatever.
Assuming stack sizes are similar proportions I play it pretty much the same in a tourney, I"m def happy to flip against a guy playing 20-25x
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In terms of the hand itself ... I liked the limp ... but agree I should have re-raised to isolate the Big Straddle.
Instead I elected to flat call the £63 ... everyone else folds.
Flop is Q86 ... two diamonds ... I have AK spades ...
Big Straddle all in for £110 ... do I call?
L
As played, easy fold and brush-it-off that you"ve only lost 10% of your stack.
Does this change at all if you are sure that the "big straddle" will push with any flop? (Well maybe not the one he hits hard).
L
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U shud never let ur self get in this spot!! Raise pre, as played make it 180 and get them in as fast as poss!! U cnt flat the 63, just jam 100% of the time thr.
I am not sure about the raise pre flop ... for the following reasons.
a/ I don"t want to create a massive pot and end in a coin flip.
b/ I am happy to play a mutli way pot with hands like AKs - which may get paid well if it hits.
Does anyone change the way they play this if in the early stages of a deep stack tournament?
L
You"re also gonna end up paying people off a lot when you hit TPTK and they hit their 2 pair or whatever.
Assuming stack sizes are similar proportions I play it pretty much the same in a tourney, I"m def happy to flip against a guy playing 20-25x
Yes - the two pair scenario is sick - actually earlier in the night I won a big pot with A2s into A2x
Defo - I raise if in a later position - Defo raise without the straddles.
Cannot fold - but feels highly likely flipping for a large pot or winning £15 of blinds/straddles.
In a tournament I am happier with my play ... two pair argument aside ... I would not be keen to flip for 20-25 BB though.
I don"t like my £63 flat call ... though there is a bit of history of AA/KK limping wait for the late raise/steal.
Still pondering the route to keep this pot small ... looks impossible ...
L
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Does this change at all if you are sure that the "big straddle" will push with any flop? (Well maybe not the one he hits hard).
In this example, I assume you play AK "to see a flop". If an A or K appears, you"d call his c-bet shove. Not too terrible given the circumstances. As it plays, no A or K so easy fold.
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... interesting ... I don"t think it is an easy fold ... given raise to £63 could be a pure squeeze play ... and a good one.
Now £110 to call and win a further £268 ...
I would have been more worried about a check to be honest.
It does all scream that I should have re-raised pre flop (as discussed) ... but now I think this is tricky ...
L
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not sure you could play AK worse so far tbh
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not sure you could play AK worse so far tbh
Smile ... but the standard play just gets you into a massive flip ... I was looking for the answer as to how you avoid this (I think) ... and the answer is re-raise pre flop ...
Anyway ... as if to stress how badly I played ... I called the all in bet of £110 ...
AK into Q86 vs 99 ... I thought it quite likely he had AK too or AJ ... or anything to squeeze with ...
Of course I hit the K ... which is pretty sick ...
Interestingly there was a very similar hand earlier in the night (vs different player) ... where I called the auto push and we were still AK vs AQ both unhit ... AK held up ...
The concensus is and was that this was played badly ... however ten handed on a potentially tricky table I am not mad for getting £650 in the middle with Aks ... to the slowed played KK or AA cooler.
Anyway : cheers for the feedback : Cash game repair kit always handy.
L
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but the standard play just gets you into a massive flip
It is actually better than a flip because small pairs that you would be flipping with are more likely to fold preflop, so that only leaves JJ and QQ who are possibly wanting to take you on.
I"m no cash game player, but my understanding is that playing flips (when you have plenty invested already) is profitable long term. You can always reload if you get called and miss, but AK is a massive preflop hand, so you need to get as much money in there.
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I"m no cash game player, but....
LOL, that should be the end of my involvement in this thread 8)
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dont really like the limp unless your expecting someone to pop it up with a weaker hand and your then going to repop, the guy has under a 100 bb"s and with money in the pot i think you have to repop once youve limped, as rob said with money in the pot already racing in this situation is going to be pofitable and surely some of the time hes going to be raising up with non paired hands
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this is a cash game
trying to avoid flips with dead money in there and fold equity means you are playing above your comfort zone, because pushing is definitely +EV the way this has been played out. Folding is better than calling the £63 preflop. no reason to think the other players are strong enough to call off their stack, so just jam and get it HU
plus there is a distinct possibility he could have AQ etc.
as played he is shoving a huge part of his range on the flop as he has a PSB left, you have left yourself guessing
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you"ve misplayed this on every street
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you"ve misplayed this on every street
Okay : let me re-frame the question - how do you avoid massive pot flips in a game full of straddles?
L
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you"ve misplayed this on every street
Okay : let me re-frame the question - how do you avoid massive pot flips in a game full of straddles?
L
imo u dnt when thr is this much dead money in there u happily get it in - u rnt always gng to b flipping - sumtimes ur just gng 2 get it in against AQ AJ, etc! Esp if ur gng to put ur chips in on a Q high flop neway - u may as well put em in pre wen thrs plenty of £ in thr and u have fold equity!
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you"ve misplayed this on every street
Okay : let me re-frame the question - how do you avoid massive pot flips in a game full of straddles?
L
leave the table and watch TV, that is all
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you"ve misplayed this on every street
not sure you could play AK worse so far tbh
this and this....
if you think he is squeezing why on earth would you not want to raise??? you flatting to hit where you have a 2 in 3 chance of not doing so... now you put yourself in a world of pain calling a c-bet where you have no idea of the hand or the range he is on. You are contradicting yourself a lot in your write up of the hand. Although i hate the limp pre-flop with hands like this in cash games (unless a high% of the time there is going to be a raise to punish the limpers) a re raise after the limp looks such a strong play, theres such a small range of hands he can call with.
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just read through this thread for first time - seems to me that you set yourself up for a fall with the weak limp preflop. by then flat calling the squeeze raise, you just gave away the position you held over the raiser too. In a pot with small and big straddles, I"m more than happy to take the blinds and straddles with a preflop raise... or a c-bet if necessary. Never ever limping here - not in low stakes, higher stakes, or tourney. AK isn"t a hand to trap with - it will miss the flop far too often, yet you played it like a cheeky AA trap play.
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i actually don"t mind the limp if you are then going to get it in once sombody has squeezed the action
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i actually don"t mind the limp if you are then going to get it in once sombody has squeezed the action
I agree w/ this but limp flatting is horrible
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i actually don"t mind the limp if you are then going to get it in once sombody has squeezed the action
exactly, but the table has to be squeezing a high % of the time otherwise you will get into trouble on later streets in a multi-way pots should you hit you a or k