Amateur Poker Association & Tour
Poker Forum => Strategy => Topic started by: George2Loose on October 21, 2007, 11:42:41 AM
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I was having a discussion with my friend (I do have more than one incidentally) re pot odds having watched high stakes poker.
We were amazed that no one knew the odds of a Q10 beating AJ (I think those were the hand)
Obviously means a lot of old school players such as Hellmuth and Ivey know nothing about odds etc.
So are they over rated??? I personally use pot odds a LOT- but should I be with all these successful pros knowing nothing about them???
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Every successful established player knows a lot about pot odds, and uses them all the time.
However, they don"t necessarily realise it.
There is some space for instinct and feel in poker, but generally those top players who can"t tell you the exact percentages of different hands winning are still using the maths behind it - they will just be using their superior number sense rather than working out the exact sum.
ie. they will know whether they have pot odds (approximately at least) without having to work it out.
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Obviously means a lot of old school players such as Hellmuth and Ivey know nothing about odds etc.
I think you"ll find Hellmuth in particular knows pot odds inside out. How you can say they obviously don"t know them is unbelievable!! They use a combination of odds, feel and experience to thump mere mortals like us. :)
Also, the TV programs, while entertaining, IMO are far removed from reality...
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Obviously means a lot of old school players such as Hellmuth and Ivey know nothing about odds etc.
I think you"ll find Hellmuth in particular knows pot odds inside out. How you can say they obviously don"t know them is unbelievable!! They use a combination of odds, feel and experience to thump mere mortals like us. :)
Also, the TV programs, while entertaining, IMO are far removed from reality...
Phil knows next to nothing about pot odds. Watch his pass on the final table when he is going for his 12th bracelet with K8 and you"ll know what I mean
TYTYTY
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I"ve not seen this particular hand but I do disagree here
Hellmuth has said that he will pass a hand even when he has the correct odds to call. His belief that he can pick better spots and outplay oponents leads him to do this. As Jon alluded to, pot odds are part of a poker decision not everything.
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I concur with Swinebag. Even though hes annoying he is very, very good at what he does. See bracelet record...
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I concur with Swinebag. Even though hes annoying he is very, very good at what he does. See bracelet record...
Thats very kind of you sir. My bracelet record is not that impressive though ;D
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I disagree with some of what is being said. Pot odds never take into account the inherent value in tournament life, increases in cash placings etc etc. PO are a factor of any one decision, not the sole driver.
extreme example - If I am priced in small blind vs one raise and two callers, is it right to call? I think not, how do I know I am not dominated, how do I now my pair, set, two pair is good on a flop - I dont, it costs chips to bet out and gain information. Further more, betting to find information will be dependant on the implied odds re other stacks.
Thus pot odds, for me at least, dont dictate play.
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I concur with Swinebag. Even though hes annoying he is very, very good at what he does. See bracelet record...
Thats very kind of you sir. My bracelet record is not that impressive though ;D
LOL - the rest is right though ;)
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Pot Odds - used way too often as an excuse for a bad call...
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Pot Odds - used way too often as an excuse for a bad call...
I thought that was implied odds?
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Anything other than lack of skill - used way too often as an excuse for a bad call...
FYP
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I am not talking about pot odds dictating play- I"m simply saying a lot of the top players get a long without it- so in the grand scheme of things do they really matter???
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I am not talking about pot odds dictating play- I"m simply saying a lot of the top players get a long without it- so in the grand scheme of things do they really matter???
My suggestion was that they may not work out the exact figures - but use their underlying understanding of the numbers involved to factor pot odds into their thought process without needing to.
So until you can do it without thinking (like they do) then yes, they do matter - but as you have rightly suggested - only as one factor amongst many.
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Have to agree with several posters, that pot odds aren"t the be all and end all factor that dictates your play, but that in certain situations they do become the overriding factor.
Yes sometimes Hellmuth will pass a hand when he is getting odds to call, so will you, me, and everyone with any sense.
IMO Too many people use pot odds to justify some fairly weak plays.
Pot odds should/can be used to great effect in cash games, but in tournaments I use pot odds vs tournament equity to decide. Yes that means I"m passing some hands that are mildly profittable over the long term, but what does that matter in a tournament?
;D
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Agreed about the difference between cash and tournament for the importance of pot odds. Of course, they are important in tournaments, but other factors can take precedence.
In cash games, pot odds are often the (or one of the) major factors influencing a decision. Going back to the OP - he was referring to a cash game, so pot odds are important.
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I may have misunderstood, but I dont think the post was actually refering to Pot Odds.
My understanding of pot odds is "The return you are getting in relation to the amount of money or chips it will cost you to make a call versus the odds that you will hit a card to improve your hand. Or the making a bet of sufficient size to deny your opponent the correct odds to draw to improve his hand.
The original post illustrated an important factor in hand selection, the odds of Q 10 catching A J for example is a major consideration when deciding wether to get involved in a hand at all, we will not know for sure what hand our opponent holds, but we can put them on a range of hands, this helps us decide wether we are getting involved, then many factors including pot odds take over.