Amateur Poker Association & Tour
Poker Forum => Strategy => Topic started by: ThinkerJE on November 04, 2007, 21:58:49 PM
-
I know this is an old one, but we got into quite a heated debate at the pub on Friday regarding the following situation.
APAT National live event, level one blinds 25-50, 10,000 starting stack, no information about the players on your table. Raise from middle position to 200, all fold to you on the button with KK. You re-raise to 800, blinds fold and original raiser quickly moves all in for 10k. Call or fold???
Insta fold for me.
Thoughts...
-
early in the event and with no info that is a fold
-
Hmm. Not sure I remember the discussion about a raise and re-raise before the all-in move. I see you couldn"t resist putting your "insta-fold" bias on it already.
Anyway, just because you"re a global moderator, don"t be tempted to remove any posts that argue against your rock-like tendencies. ::)
-
I know this is an old one, but we got into quite a heated debate at the pub on Friday regarding the following situation.
APAT National live event, level one blinds 25-50, 10,000 starting stack, no information about the players on your table. Raise from middle position to 200, all fold to you on the button with KK. You re-raise to 800, blinds fold and original raiser quickly moves all in for 10k. Call or fold???
Insta fold for me.
Thoughts...
i"d struggle to fold here but thats possibly more an indication of my ability than an opinion on what the "correct" move is. most early exits in APAT events seem to be AA v KK so maybe i should struggle less.
I think a lot of pros who play big tourneys week in week out would call and if its AA (it doesn"t have to be AA though in which case you are a massive favourite and if it is you can still suck out) and an early exit just shrug it off and find a cash table to win their buy in back.
I know this may be thread jacking but what about:
APAT regional live event, level one blinds 25-50, 3,000 starting stack, no information about the players on your table. Raise from middle position to 200, all fold to you on the button with KK. You re-raise to 800, blinds fold and original raiser quickly moves all in for 3k. Call or fold???
I"d insta call
thoughts??
-
Hmm. Not sure I remember the discussion about a raise and re-raise before the all-in move. I see you couldn"t resist putting your "insta-fold" bias on it already.
Anyway, just because you"re a global moderator, don"t be tempted to remove any posts that argue against your rock-like tendencies. ::)
as if...
Let the people decide...
-
I know this is an old one, but we got into quite a heated debate at the pub on Friday regarding the following situation.
APAT National live event, level one blinds 25-50, 10,000 starting stack, no information about the players on your table. Raise from middle position to 200, all fold to you on the button with KK. You re-raise to 800, blinds fold and original raiser quickly moves all in for 10k. Call or fold???
Insta fold for me.
Thoughts...
i"d struggle to fold here but thats possibly more an indication of my ability than an opinion on what the "correct" move is. most early exits in APAT events seem to be AA v KK so maybe i should struggle less.
I think a lot of pros who play big tourneys week in week out would call and if its AA (it doesn"t have to be AA though in which case you are a massive favourite and if it is you can still suck out) and an early exit just shrug it off and find a cash table to win their buy in back.
I know this may be thread jacking but what about:
APAT regional live event, level one blinds 25-50, 3,000 starting stack, no information about the players on your table. Raise from middle position to 200, all fold to you on the button with KK. You re-raise to 800, blinds fold and original raiser quickly moves all in for 3k. Call or fold???
I"d insta call
thoughts??
Still a fold for me, although I would probably go into the tank for a few mins.
-
I would have to call and go with the poker gods on this.... I think folding is -EV. Although you are giving massive implied odds.
How many times in this postition are you going to be behind....Ah FFS... not sure now..
Call, Call, Call....
Thinks to himself when they show AA.."What did you do that for....."
-
National got to be a fold. Regional now that"s a tougher one, problably have to call, but then again......hmmm
-
Call all day long
But then again i have never been past 7.30 :)
-
10,000 chips - level one. Easy fold.
-
By the way James, loved your 2,000 bet at the 400-800 level (or thereabouts) leaving you with 500 behind. Genius.
-
After a 5 hour drive. Defo fold!!
-
After a 5 hour drive. Defo fold!!
LOL - too right!
Did you actually make it for the 25/50 level, or was it after that?
-
Dan Harington said that you should never fold kings preflop......If the other guy has one ace his got a 30% shot in winning...if he has A A , then you ve got an 18 % of winning...
So if you are right 1 out of 3 times you will lose...if you are wrong, 1/5 you win...
and you are getting 1 to 1 to your money... But so many other hands you will be dominating Q, Q J , J... First hand your opponent might thing you are never calling an all in... Not much info on your opponent but why would he move all in with A A ?
Doesnt he want to try to get more out of his rockets?
It is really a hard one since i would not be happy seeing one ace on his hand not two of them ...30 % in busting out first hand yet you are miles ahead
The truth is 99% of the times the money has to go in...you see the line between making a great fold and a really stupid one is a really thin one. But if this is trully a skill game , the best players should be able to fold K K preflop and that should be if they trully believe the other player has A A , not due to bubbling out considerations or making a higher pay day by folding their way to a better position on the final table.
Verdict: Call your mum and start crying! ???
-
Not much info on your opponent but why would he move all in with A A ?
Doesnt he want to try to get more out of his rockets?
how much more can he get without being all-in ?
-
Not much info on your opponent but why would he move all in with A A ?
Doesnt he want to try to get more out of his rockets?
how much more can he get without being all-in ?
by betting an ammount that his/her opponent wont fold to?
-
Dan Harington said that you should never fold kings preflop......If the other guy has one ace his got a 30% shot in winning...if he has A A , then you ve got an 18 % of winning...
So if you are right 1 out of 3 times you will lose...if you are wrong, 1/5 you win...
and you are getting 1 to 1 to your money... But so many other hands you will be dominating Q, Q J , J... First hand your opponent might thing you are never calling an all in... Not much info on your opponent but why would he move all in with A A ?
Doesnt he want to try to get more out of his rockets?
It is really a hard one since i would not be happy seeing one ace on his hand not two of them ...30 % in busting out first hand yet you are miles ahead
The truth is 99% of the times the money has to go in...you see the line between making a great fold and a really stupid one is a really thin one. But if this is trully a skill game , the best players should be able to fold K K preflop and that should be if they trully believe the other player has A A , not due to bubbling out considerations or making a higher pay day by folding their way to a better position on the final table.
Verdict: Call your mum and start crying! ???
Disagree with this completely.
You win this hand and double up, you"ve won some chips. Might help you get going in the tournament, but doesn"t mean you"re going to win a bean.
Lose, and it costs you £75 (plus any travelling costs, hotels, and of course, your time).
Harrington wasn"t referring to someone pushing all-in for 10,000 chips during the first level when he was talking about not folding kings.
Would you fold queens here? Why? Worried about AA or KK? Surely the same thing goes for kings?
Unless you think you"re a much worse player than everyone else, it"s an easy fold. In a shorter stack tournament,with a quick structure, it"s an easy call.
-
I missed the first level all together, and came in near the end of the second. With a very frazzled brain!!
-
Not much info on your opponent but why would he move all in with A A ?
Doesnt he want to try to get more out of his rockets?
how much more can he get without being all-in ?
by betting an ammount that his/her opponent wont fold to?
It seems it is an amount that some won"t fold to though.
-
Well i did not take an actual position if you should call or fold...but the cost of the tourny (£75 traveling etc or any amount really ) should never influence your decision ...the decision as i explained should be 100% poker related ...saying i ll fold cost ive been driving for 3 hours is totally the wrong approach
Queens is a totally different situtation...you can never compare KK and QQ and you do know that....Queens will go in the muck in a second...at best you are looking at 50-50%
I do believe that it is essential to accumulate chips early on that will allow you to actual having a shot in winning...If it wrong to call with Kings on the first hand then when is it right to call? 10th hand? 30th? after 3 hours? (apat structure) What i do know, in walsall after 5 hours of play there were 170/200 still in with an average stack of 12 000! The structure suggests that you still have a lot of play after 5 hours and average chip stack...why would you call an all in then?
In poker you have to take calculated risks and sadly most of the times the best you can get is roughly 70%-30% in favour preflop in an all in situation (apart from pair over pair)
Dont get me wrong...id much rather play a flop with KK througout the tourny not just in the first hand...but if someone moves all in you have to call ...If it is on the first hand and you dont want to risk it then dont...live to fight another day....
Once again first hand...no right or wrong decision ...you cannot blame someone for calling ....you cannot blame someone for folding
-
Well i did not take an actual position if you should call or fold...
You said you"d call.
...but the cost of the tourny (£75 traveling etc or any amount really ) should never influence your decision ...the decision as i explained should be 100% poker related ...saying i ll fold cost ive been driving for 3 hours is totally the wrong approach
If you don"t care about the money, then ignore it. But the reason I pay £75 to play in a deep-stack, well-structured tournament is not to gamble my tournament life in the first level, calling all-in against what is probably AA.
Queens is a totally different situtation...you can never compare KK and QQ and you do know that....Queens will go in the muck in a second...at best you are looking at 50-50%
The kings will be there just as quick for me.
I do believe that it is essential to accumulate chips early on that will allow you to actual having a shot in winning...If it wrong to call with Kings on the first hand then when is it right to call? 10th hand? 30th? after 3 hours? (apat structure)
It"s probably correct to call all-in with KK when the chip stacks and blind levels dictate that their range is greater than AA. Also, with some knowledge of the player you have a much greater chance of being able to put him on an accurate range.
What i do know, in walsall after 5 hours of play there were 170/200 still in with an average stack of 12 000! The structure suggests that you still have a lot of play after 5 hours and average chip stack...why would you call an all in then?
Average stack is pretty meaningless even after 5 hours. I"m more interested in the size of my stack in relation to the blinds. If I have a stack that"s pretty much average size, but I only have 15BB, then I"m going to be calling all-in with my kings 99.99% of the time pre-flop. In fact my chips will be in the middle before his.
In poker you have to take calculated risks and sadly most of the times the best you can get is roughly 70%-30% in favour preflop in an all in situation (apart from pair over pair)
The risk/reward isn"t right here. If you think you are good enough, why do you want to risk your tournament life so early, when you will have plenty of other opportunities to accumulate chips.
Dont get me wrong...id much rather play a flop with KK througout the tourny not just in the first hand...but if someone moves all in you have to call ...If it is on the first hand and you dont want to risk it then dont...live to fight another day....
First hand, I certainly won"t be calling all-in with KK. Absolutely, categorically, and definitely not.
Once again first hand...no right or wrong decision ...you cannot blame someone for calling ....you cannot blame someone for folding
Calling all-in with KK first hand is wrong in a deep-stack tournament. If someone did call and they were knocked out, then they"d have zero sympathy from me.
Like I said, in a short-stack tournament with a fast blind structure, the call would be easy.
However, if I am lucky enough to wake up first hand with AA in a future APAT National event, I might consider shoving pre-flop if there are lots of others who"d call with kings.
-
I think our views arent that contradictory....i share your thoughts in all you say apart that you make kings sound like 2-2 and that you are probably are up against A A...that can never be certain
If i knew the others hand, in fact id fold to any Ace first hand not just the rockets...
i ll take my time to think about it...try to feel if he is afraid...if there is no strong tell that he is afraid the kings have be mucked ...yet it is def not an insta fold
Thank you for your thoughts
-
This APAT academy is great!
I said near the start of this thread that I would struggle to lay KK down in this situation.
I feel I have "graduated" to the "easy fold" school of thought that most people are advocating, especially in a deep stack!
Thanks for improving my game.
I"ll still call if its the regionals though!
-
I think our views arent that contradictory....i share your thoughts in all you say apart that you make kings sound like 2-2 and that you are probably are up against A A...that can never be certain
If i knew the others hand, in fact id fold to any Ace first hand not just the rockets...
If I knew they had anything other than AA, I"d probably call. I"m happy to take the punt when it"s a +EV move, and willing to be knocked out if they outdraw me.
i ll take my time to think about it...try to feel if he is afraid...if there is no strong tell that he is afraid the kings have be mucked ...yet it is def not an insta fold
My reading skills are not that good. I might be more willing to trust my reads against someone I"ve played against before or who I"ve spent a decent amount of time at the table with, but against someone I"ve never played or seen before - I don"t think they"d help me here. If they look like they want a call is that what they want me to think? If they look like they want me to fold - the same. If they"re sweating buckets, their pulse is 200 bpm, they can"t hold my gaze - then they"re either scared of the call or hoping I won"t fold.
It"s interesting to see the different ways people think about hands and situations. There"s never one right or wrong way to play a hand, but in this situation it"s definitely a fold for me. Lots of better players might disagree.
Is it a style thing?
-
By the way, I"ve asked quite a few players about what they"d do in this situation.
It"s a 50/50 split pretty much. That"s a mixture of what I would say are decent amateurs and people who play professionally.
Another case of there being no one right answer in poker...
-
So basically what we disagree in is the opponents starting hand and what we are willing to gamble with...
I might be more willing to gamble, that he does not have AA than you , but you would be more willing to gamble if you knew you were up ahead 70% to 30%
To be realistic for someone to move all in first hand it is eaither AA KK QQ or AK
out of these hands id just call to QQ or KK (higly unlikely though he has this)
You would call against QQ AK AND KK....
So after all you are more willing to call than me...hehehehe ::)
Im really not much of a gambler and prefer to play small pot poker so i would not take my 70% - 30% against any A on the first hand...
It is really a style thing cause some players would be willing to gamble early on situations such as this or draws and push a lot so either bust early or build a huge stack to bully the table...
Yet i think it requires a lot more skill to fold KK later on in a tourny if you really trust your reads and think you are up against AA .... (dont know if you seen the hand AA VS KK VS QQ if you havent youtube it ...it is really sick)
Pre flop play made KK realize he was beat and folded the kings while QQ called...It was a genius fold that only a few players can really pull off
-
I folded QQ v AA in the Scottish APAT last season on a JT3 flop. Would have folded KK too. Trusted my read then.
That was the last hand before the dinner break. It wasn"t an all-in bet though.
So after all you are more willing to call than me...hehehehe
If the cards were face up, maybe. But in the actual situation, I"m calling 0% of the time.
-
It is all about playing a lot and being experienced...when you are experienced enough you can really sense the danger...you just get that feeling you know....i cant really explain it and i dont think someone who does not really play the game would understan.
But to last in a deepstack multitable tourny it is true that most probably you will have to make such taught laydowns...
-
Folding any big hand either pre or post flop is a big decision, and laying down any hand against a strong bet is always going to tax the old grey matter.After staring down you opponent and gathering all the information you can,you then process it all, and rely heavily on gut instinct and hope you make the right decision!
On Saturday I laid down Aces after the flop and was proved correct when was shown trip Qs, I then laid down top pair against Kinboshi, I said he had nothing but he priced me out so I laid "em down, he actually had trip 2s! Complete mis read but the correct lay down!
Oh how the poker gods do use us for their sport.
-
I"d be in the school of thought that in a deep stack tournament it"s an easy fold, but in the situation described for the Regional it"s an easy call because of the proportion of my stack I"ve already committed versus the chances of winning the hand.
This weekend I consoled myself with a $10 deepstack tournament on Pokerstars, and managed to induce an all in call when I held Kings, from a player with a pair of jacks.
I probably don"t need to go into detail how that ended - so what do I know?
-
I then laid down top pair against Kinboshi, I said he had nothing but he priced me out so I laid "em down, he actually had trip 2s! Complete mis read but the correct lay down!
Oh how the poker gods do use us for their sport.
I knew I should have just called the turn. But I think the call would have aroused your suspicions anyway. Why couldn"t you have fallen in love with your top pair and then re-popped me for all your chips?
;D
-
If I remember rightly, I didn"t have that many!!!
-
By the way James, loved your 2,000 bet at the 400-800 level (or thereabouts) leaving you with 500 behind. Genius.
It was actually 1,000-2,000 blinds and I only had 2,500 left. I saw an ace and thought I would have a bit of fun by just limping and keeping 500 back. Was not to be...
-
I folded QQ v AA in the Scottish APAT last season on a JT3 flop. Would have folded KK too. Trusted my read then.
That was the last hand before the dinner break. It wasn"t an all-in bet though.
I was at the same same table and saw this first hand.
THE SINGLE GREATEST LAYDOWN I HAVE EVER SEEN!!!
-
My thinking on this is that it is too much risk to take so early in a deep stack tournament. With no prior knowledge I give credit to my opponent and pass. If he has a single ace I am only 70%, and if I double up so early the relevent value of the extra chips does not outweigh busting out. To win the tournament you have reach the final table first, again insta fold for me.
-
I"m putting all my chips, car keys, drinks tab, diary, wife and "clickfest on" button into the middle on a pair of kings pre-flop.
Perhaps this is why I don"t get to play events any more! :D
-
i would just have to call here.
no matter how early it is and how far you come. you gona have real bad luck to come up against AA in first level. so i would have to call. just feel a loose player would make the same allin bet on QQ which you would then be favorite.
more than likely to double up so early and start bullying.
never put kings down pre-flop!!
-
i would just have to call here.
no matter how early it is and how far you come. you gona have real bad luck to come up against AA in first level. so i would have to call. just feel a loose player would make the same allin bet on QQ which you would then be favorite.
more than likely to double up so early and start bullying.
never put kings down pre-flop!!
Why is it unlucky? Although I think me and James are actually in a minority advocating the fold here, I am truly surprised that people would be pushing all-in preflop here with anything but AA. You simply don"t know if they"re loose, scared, a skilled player, an absolute novice. But in all of those cases, AA is still very likely. I guess I"m giving people too much credit.
Like I said, in a short-stack tournament - it"s in instacall. Deep-stack, don"t really see the point.
Watch out in the next APAT event if I push early doors pre-flop. Especially if you have KK. Please call.
-
I"ll throw my 10c in and lodge myself firmly in the Kin/Thinker JE school of thought. In a deepstack tournament like the APAT nationals this is a 100% fold for me. I"m there to play some poker and risking your whole tournament on the first hand to me is nothing short of ridiculous. Even if I 100% knew the guy was pushing with AK, I"m not risking my entire tournament when I"ll lose the hand 30% of the time. I"m there to win and do as well as I can but like everyone else on this forum, I"m an amateur so I play for enjoyment as well. I get no enjoyment out of calling all my chips first hand, even if it will, in the majority of cases, double me up.
-
I"ll throw my 10c in and lodge myself firmly in the Kin/Thinker JE school of thought. In a deepstack tournament like the APAT nationals this is a 100% fold for me. I"m there to play some poker and risking your whole tournament on the first hand to me is nothing short of ridiculous.
Try telling that to players like Lawrence Gosney who has won a WSOP bracelet.
They will take huge risks at the start of a tournement to establish a healthy stack to enable them to captain a table.
So what happens late in day 1 when your stack is so low and you pick up KK? You"d still push i am 99.9% certain.
If you run into AA the results are the same except you get home much later.
-
... you don"t have to captain a table to win.
In fact if you haven"t naturally got the skills to do so you"re more likely to just donk off all those extra chips trying to do so.
But in a slight amendment to my previous acceptance of the folding in a deep stack tournament idea, I would add that while I think that is what I should do because that would be the best thing for me - if you are good enough to do a lot of damage with a big stack then maybe it would be best for you to take the risk early on.
But I think for most people the extra chips early on won"t make any significant difference to the rest of their tournament so it isn"t worth the risk.
-
I"ll throw my 10c in and lodge myself firmly in the Kin/Thinker JE school of thought. In a deepstack tournament like the APAT nationals this is a 100% fold for me. I"m there to play some poker and risking your whole tournament on the first hand to me is nothing short of ridiculous.
Try telling that to players like Lawrence Gosney who has won a WSOP bracelet.
They will take huge risks at the start of a tournement to establish a healthy stack to enable them to captain a table.
So what happens late in day 1 when your stack is so low and you pick up KK? You"d still push i am 99.9% certain.
If you run into AA the results are the same except you get home much later.
If I"m a professional player, who"s income is derived from Poker or money doesn"t matter and it"s all about the glory, then I am calling 100% of the time. However I am not a professional player and contrary to some of the miserable gits I see sitting at a poker table, I play for enjoyment and for the love of the game. Any money I win from poker is great but I would still play in these tournaments if it was prizes rather than money (may be in the minority here ;) If I have played for seven hours and my Kings run into Aces pre-flop and I bust out of a tournament, then fair enough, I"ve played some poker (hopefully some really good poker!) and got my money"s worth. Getting knocked out first hand (regardless of odds, value etc etc) is not enjoyable as far as I"m concerned!
-
(dont know if you seen the hand AA VS KK VS QQ if you havent youtube it ...it is really sick)
I was dealing at the manchester regional and managed to deal that scenario. No classy lay downs here though and the AA held up.
-
If someone is going to lay down KK in the face of every re-raise they must also be prepared to lay down QQ,JJ,AK,AQ
So in effect they are only comfortable playing AA
I"m sorry, but premium hands just don"t come round enough to play that type of game.
Don"t fancy sitting 8 hrs getting blinded out waiting for AA.
Lets face it we can never be 100% sure what our opponent holds can we?
-
If someone is going to lay down KK in the face of every re-raise they must also be prepared to lay down QQ,JJ,AK,AQ
So in effect they are only comfortable playing AA
I"m sorry, but premium hands just don"t come round enough to play that type of game.
Don"t fancy sitting 8 hrs getting blinded out waiting for AA.
Lets face it we can never be 100% sure what our opponent holds can we?
I think an all in re-raise is a bit different to a reraise?
-
If you run into AA the results are the same except you get home much later.
I was originally marginally in the fold camp, but this line has turned me into a caller! Great line!
In response to whoever said Harrington said never fold Kings pre-flop...Sklansky says he thinks it is very wrong to call with Kings in this situation in his Tournament Poker for Advanced Players book. For every action etc...
There is no right answer. Only wrong ones in my case.
-
If you run into AA the results are the same except you get home much later.
I was originally marginally in the fold camp, but this line has turned me into a caller! Great line!
In response to whoever said Harrington said never fold Kings pre-flop...Sklansky says he thinks it is very wrong to call with Kings in this situation in his Tournament Poker for Advanced Players book. For every action etc...
There is no right answer. Only wrong ones in my case.
So you"d rather pay your entry fee for a few minutes play rather than a few hours play?
-
Just remembered - second hand of the EPT event I played in Copenhagen, I was dealt KK.
Early position raise (obviously with a table full of Scandies), and it was folded round to me, and so I re-raised.
If he"d pushed all-in here, I would have folded quicker than the queue forms behind Des at the bar.
Incidentally, he actually called, and I check-raised an all-club flop and he folded.
-
You remember this now!! ;)
-
Yes, I was thinking to myself if the standard and buy-in of the tournament would affect my thinking and action in this situation.
I"d play it the same way in an APAT national event as I would in an EPT event. The tournament buy-in shouldn"t matter to your actions, the fact that the tournament is a "one off" (as the EPT was in my case, I won"t be playing one of them again unless I"m lucky enough to qualify for one through a sat), etc.
But I wonder how many on here who said they"d call would do the same if it was the first hand of an EPT event? You"d certainly be chip leader if you won the hand! Be a short-lived adventure if you lost.
-
As I said earlier I would call no matter what the buy in/tournament was, be it a $5 STT or a $10.000 WPT
-
I think it does matter what the tourny is/buy in.
I stt online is a very different tourny, and have a far greater range of hands that could/would make this move!
an EPT event, WSOP or even just an APAT national, the range of hands is a lot smaller, and a far higher percentage of the time you would be facing those dreaded aces.
Folding those kings is at worst a small mistake, but one that does not seriously damage your chances of moneying or winning, whereas calling with those kings is likely to be a huge mistake most of the time and correct only occasionally
;D
-
Folding those kings is at worst a small mistake, but one that does not seriously damage your chances of moneying or winning, whereas calling with those kings is likely to be a huge mistake most of the time and correct only occasionally
;D
That sums up my thoughts perfectly. Why didn"t I just right that earlier?
;D
-
whereas calling with those kings is likely to be a huge mistake most of the time and correct only occasionally
;D
I think the other way.. .It is a mistake some of the time and correct most of the time to call with them.....
-
whereas calling with those kings is likely to be a huge mistake most of the time and correct only occasionally
;D
I think the other way.. .It is a mistake some of the time and correct most of the time to call with them.....
You think that"s the case calling all-in with them during the first level against players you have no idea how they play?
-
Okay, if you are in the fold camp, at what chip stack would you have to have to call with at this point.
Assuming you have lost a pot, so your chips are down form 10,000, and oppo 1 still has 10,000 and moves all in.. What level of chips would you have to have to call..
Would you call with 2000, would you fold,,, would you call with 5000?
-
The original supposition was that you had re-raised to 800.
So I would say I was "pot committed" at this stage if I had 2500 chips.
But if I had 2500 chips left, I wouldn"t have re-raised to 800, I would have re-raised all in.
-
Okay, if you are in the fold camp, at what chip stack would you have to have to call with at this point.
Assuming you have lost a pot, so your chips are down form 10,000, and oppo 1 still has 10,000 and moves all in.. What level of chips would you have to have to call..
Would you call with 2000, would you fold,,, would you call with 5000?
It"s not so much about the absolute size of the stack, but the relative size of the stack compared to the blinds.
It"s the same as people being concerned with the average chip stick and if they match up to it mid-way through a comp. To me, it"s largely irrelevant. I"m more concerned about the size of my stack compared to the blinds and ensuring I"m maintaining the ratio as the blinds increase.
As you go through the tournament, you get to understand what sort of players are at your table - so the all-in move pre-flop might indicate a wide (or very narrow) range of hands. The lack of information very early on is what makes me fold. As biffa said - my fold might be a small mistake, but I"m looking to avoid making a huge mistake. Going out early in a tournament is either due to two monster hands colliding post-flop, or people shoving and calling pre-flop. I don"t mind going out in the first case, but will do my utmost to avoid the second (unless it"s me pushing with AA and I"m outdrawn). Why put your fate in the hands of lady luck, when you still have the opportunity to dictate it yourself?
If it"s during the first level, and I"m down to 5,000 - I"m still not worried at all. If I"m down to 2,000, it"s a little different. I"m looking to double up (as things have obviously gone badly wrong). But even then, I"d rather be dictating things and be the one pushing rather than calling.
----------
As an aside - here"s another situation where you have to consider calling all-in for your tournament life:
It"s Day 2 of the EPT event in Copenhagen. You are fairly short-stacked with 18,000 and the blinds are 600/1,200 with 100 antes.
To your immediate right is the table bully and chip leader. He"s not shy of shoving all of his chips in, especially when it"s folded round to him in the small blind.
He"s shown that he"s willing to make the push with ATC based solely on his chip stack.
So, my question is what cards do you need to make the call in the big blind when he shoves from the small blind?
-
I"d call with AA-1010 AKs+o, AQs and maybe worse because I"d be trying to avoid being short stacked and be prepared to risk going out to do that.
This is probably incorrect though and its maybe call with AA or KK only.
-
I"d call with AA-1010 AKs+o, AQs and maybe worse because I"d be trying to avoid being short stacked and be prepared to risk going out to do that.
This is probably incorrect though and its maybe call with AA or KK only.
You"ve selected pretty much the range I had chosen as well.
When I asked this on the blondepoker forum, some said that I should be calling with a far wider range in order to double up. Others said I should do my utmost to avoid calling and and look to raise or even shove when I get the opportunity to be first or second into a pot.
-
I"d call with AA-1010 AKs+o, AQs and maybe worse because I"d be trying to avoid being short stacked and be prepared to risk going out to do that.
This is probably incorrect though and its maybe call with AA or KK only.
You"ve selected pretty much the range I had chosen as well.
When I asked this on the blondepoker forum, some said that I should be calling with a far wider range in order to double up. Others said I should do my utmost to avoid calling and and look to raise or even shove when I get the opportunity to be first or second into a pot.
I think I"d open my range up a little for this player as well, so long as it"s been folded round to this player before he pushes - any pair, any two picture cards. BUT, obviously, I would prefer to be the one pushing and putting the decision to someone else.
-
I absolutely wanted to be pushing. I just wasn"t getting the opportunity on a table full of mad Scandies - some with large stacks.
Hate calling all-in, but had to in the end.
-
Can you ever lay them down (KK) Last 15 of tonights Online Tourney. I have about 67000 in chips (about average). Get KK UTG raise 3x BB to 12000, SB reraises to 36000. I call (if an ace comes on the flop then I can lay it down).
Flop 4-2-7, I think, SB goes all in and has me covered. Do you call?
You can probably guess what I did, but what would you do.
-
Can you ever lay them down (KK) Last 15 of tonights Online Tourney. I have about 67000 in chips (about average). Get KK UTG raise 3x BB to 12000, SB reraises to 36000. I call (if an ace comes on the flop then I can lay it down).
Flop 4-2-7, I think, SB goes all in and has me covered. Do you call?
You can probably guess what I did, but what would you do.
I shove pre-flop there, but I also see the merits of calling seeing a flop without an ace and then getting my chips in.
I"m not folding there. His range is huge. Of course it could include 44, 22, 77 and AA, but also TT, JJ, QQ, and even AK (although more unlikely and I would have thought they"d have wanted to get the chips in preflop or play more cautiously on a flop like that).
More I look at it, the more I want to get my chips in pre-flop.
-
Pushing pre-flop was an option but I saw a chance to get a lot of chips by just calling his re-raise. Trying to disguise the strength of my hand. Once he went all-in on the raggy flop I thought aces!. Then I rationalised that if he indeed did have the pocket rockets why would he push, so I put him on JJ or QQ and called.
Of course he turned over AA and that was that. Nearly 4 and half hours of grind for a $10 profit. Don"t you just love poker.
-
Pushing pre-flop was an option but I saw a chance to get a lot of chips by just calling his re-raise. Trying to disguise the strength of my hand. Once he went all-in on the raggy flop I thought aces!. Then I rationalised that if he indeed did have the pocket rockets why would he push, so I put him on JJ or QQ and called.
Of course he turned over AA and that was that. Nearly 4 and half hours of grind for a $10 profit. Don"t you just love poker.
This is how poker ideas develop - I think shoving all in with Aces when you"ve still got plenty of chips is becoming more prevalent as not only are some players so bad that they will call any all in with a marginal hand, but because some players are good enough to rationalise that it means you " can"t " have aces.
I think you"d have to have some very detailed stats to know whether this was a long term way of maximising your profits, but it is certainly a way to play aces which can win you a lot of chips.
-
Regarding KK - maybe you could tell me what you would have done in my place last week at Walsall.
Last hand before dinner - got KK - raised to 2000 (blinds 300-600) - bb called (had shown earlier he knocked people off hands by going all-in several times - mainly with the inferior hand) - flop all low with two diamonds - he pushes all-in - I call and he has 10 Q diamonds (fishing!!!!) - turn is diamond (of course!) and my only hope is another diamond to give the bigger flush, which doesn"t of course happen.
Did I play this "right" or should I
a) have raised more or
b) folded to the all-in ?
:-\
-
pre flop raise was fine
he got lucky, you didn"t. Dont think you can fold when you are ahead against most of his post flop push hands.
-
Regarding KK - maybe you could tell me what you would have done in my place last week at Walsall.
Last hand before dinner - got KK - raised to 2000 (blinds 300-600) - bb called (had shown earlier he knocked people off hands by going all-in several times - mainly with the inferior hand) - flop all low with two diamonds - he pushes all-in - I call and he has 10 Q diamonds (fishing!!!!) - turn is diamond (of course!) and my only hope is another diamond to give the bigger flush, which doesn"t of course happen.
Did I play this "right" or should I
a) have raised more or
b) folded to the all-in ?
:-\
Can"t see that you did anything wrong - you raised at least 3x BB pre flop and got your money in whilst ahead post flop, what more can you do ?
I would also have to say that his action of strongly betting a flush draw isn"t wrong either. After all, he wasn"t to know that you were holding Kings.
-
Regarding KK - maybe you could tell me what you would have done in my place last week at Walsall.
Last hand before dinner - got KK - raised to 2000 (blinds 300-600) - bb called (had shown earlier he knocked people off hands by going all-in several times - mainly with the inferior hand) - flop all low with two diamonds - he pushes all-in - I call and he has 10 Q diamonds (fishing!!!!) - turn is diamond (of course!) and my only hope is another diamond to give the bigger flush, which doesn"t of course happen.
Did I play this "right" or should I
a) have raised more or
b) folded to the all-in ?
:-\
How many chips were your all ins?
-
Was about to ask. The stack sizes are vitally important here.
-
If we had a 150/300 level I would fold. ::)
Due to the immenent pressure of the 200/400 level I call to try and get 20k
-
If we had a 150/300 level I would fold. ::)
Due to the immenent pressure of the 200/400 level I call to try and get 20k
We DO have a 150/300 level.
;D
500 / 1,000 is the next campaign...then antes.
-
OMG life tilt- I missed the first APAT event with a 150/300 level :o
-
Thanks for the replies - I had 5700 left after the 2000 raise and he had a little more - thought I was ahead (which I was) but........
:D
-
10,000 chips - level one. Easy fold.
Maybe why i go out before the break!!..
Presuming the stacks are equal at all times when this happens... why does the early stage matter with Pocket KK....I see know difference in calling 1st hand to 45th hand. Your in a great postition with KK, the only thing that your saying is stopping you is you"ll wait for a better postition...than what?..you have KK!
With great respect Daniel, as your a far better player than me, I"m trying to learn all the time, so would like to view my point and get comments...(bracing himself..)
-
The reason I fold KK first-hand in a deepstack tournament is because of the other player"s range.
I put him on AA. That"s the only "range" that makes sense to me.
Later in a tournament, a shove doesn"t necessarily mean a monster starting-hand. If someone is short, they might be pushing with lots of pocket pairs, or a big ace. Therefore, I"m beating a lot of those hands with my KK and the maths dictates the call. Those that are advocating the call on the first hand with KK are assuming that the person who shoves has a wider range than AA. That"s the only point we disagree on.
By the way. First hand of an APAT regional, I call the shove with KK.
-
...oh and many (most?) would argue about me being any good. I"d be one of them!
;D
-
Regarding KK - maybe you could tell me what you would have done in my place last week at Walsall.
Last hand before dinner - got KK - raised to 2000 (blinds 300-600) - bb called (had shown earlier he knocked people off hands by going all-in several times - mainly with the inferior hand) - flop all low with two diamonds - he pushes all-in - I call and he has 10 Q diamonds (fishing!!!!) - turn is diamond (of course!) and my only hope is another diamond to give the bigger flush, which doesn"t of course happen.
Did I play this "right" or should I
a) have raised more or
b) folded to the all-in ?
:-\
Thanks for the replies - I had 5700 left after the 2000 raise and he had a little more - thought I was ahead (which I was) but........
:D
It"s not necessarily the easy thing, or what I would end up doing. But in theory I think shoving all in would have been the right play.
If he had called your all in pre flop with that hand then he has made a mistake, this doesn"t really make you feel any better when you"ve just been knocked out though.
And if he folds to your your all in, you won"t be able to get rid of the nagging feeling that you could have got more chips out of the hand if you hadn"t just shoved.
But, in theory with blinds that high and a stack that low then I think it should be an all in pre flop.
-
Thanks - will try to remember next time!!
;D
-
This will amuse a few people.
I"m playing in a 180-seater SNG on Stars. $20 one. I like these because one"s never far away, they don"t last too long, and they"re not the hardest tournaments in the world to cash in (to final table and win takes a bit more).
Anyway, first hand I"m on the button with 8d 8s. Three limpers, and I decide to limp along and play the flop. The SB raises it up and two of the limpers call, as do I.
Flop is :2c: 7h 8h.
Small blind shoves for his remaining 1,300 or so. The next player calls, the next folds, and then it"s to me. I have to call as I"m definitely ahead at this stage.
The SB shows ad ks
The other player shows 9h qh
Obviously the turn is the kh and the board fails to pair and so I"m out. First hand.
;D
-
Shame they weren"t ks, you"d have laid "em down ;)
-
Exactly!
On that board I would have laid them down.