Amateur Poker Association & Tour
Poker Forum => World Championship of Amateur Poker (WCOAP) => Live Archive => Live Poker => WCOAP 2008 - 2012 => Topic started by: duncthehat on August 20, 2010, 00:20:03 AM
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Reading in the main thread that the Stud is pot limit????
For a game with so many betting rounds pot limit in the stud variant just turns it into a crap shoot!! because the hand values run pretty close, especially early on, and you rarely get all your money in as a significant favourite unless you have trips.
Pot Limit Stud is rubbish for the same reason that No Limit Omaha is rubbish - it just becomes a crapshoot.
PL Stud quickly decends into a game of who has the hidden trips, and who is foolish enough to call a scary board. Stud games are meant to be played limit.
Can we have some confirmation tighty of what we are actually playing!!
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Reading in the main thread that the Stud is pot limit????
For a game with so many betting rounds pot limit in the stud variant just turns it into a crap shoot!! because the hand values run pretty close, especially early on, and you rarely get all your money in as a significant favourite unless you have trips.
Pot Limit Stud is rubbish for the same reason that No Limit Omaha is rubbish - it just becomes a crapshoot.
PL Stud quickly decends into a game of who has the hidden trips, and who is foolish enough to call a scary board. Stud games are meant to be played limit.
Can we have some confirmation tighty of what we are actually playing!!
Quite sure it was Richard who said it was PL, I"d sooner it be limit but what can ya do ?
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the last APAT stud tourney at the Vic was Limit I am sure?
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Yeah tighty has said pot limit in another thread.
Wanted to open a new thread as my question may have got lost in the thread.
will be over pretty quick if pot limit!!
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I questioned the Pot Limit part and, TBH, if I had known that when it was offered, I probably would have given it a swerve.
With the relatively small stack (6000 IIRC) this will become a shove fest pretty early on.
Tighty....are we SURE that this is Pot Limit? It"s very unusual to have this format....after all the HORSE isn"t PL is it?
If it is PL...them I"m assuming a 2 blind ante with no bring in etc etc?
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I"m assuming there was a worry about the finishing time, that"s the only reason I can think of that pot limit would be chosen
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I"m assuming there was a worry about the finishing time, that"s the only reason I can think of that pot limit would be chosen
If it is pot limit my guess is that the finishing time will be about 4.30pm
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The only time Stud really works as a Pot Limit game is on a crazy cash table where gamblers want to shove their money around as fast as possible.
Stud, and all of it"s variants, are supposed to be skill games, but they can only claim to be this if played with a Limit format.
It was played properly at the Vic two years ago, and the finish time was fine. Not sure why the need to hurry it along (and spoil it) this time round.
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Stud, and all of it"s variants, are supposed to be skill games, but they can only claim to be this if played with a Limit format.
+1
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I dont think anyone that entered this expected it to be pot limit. We have what 32 odd players at the moment, it will be over well before midnight as a normal limit event - unless jon woodfield makes it to the heads up!!
as pot limit with that many runners it will last 2 hours, 3 hours tops
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Whoever wins will get no credibility.
There title will just be World Amateur Crapshoot Champion
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so glad i logged on this morning, was looking around on betfair wiv hope of getting stud seat. can"t work out the holding tank so came on here to see if any1 knows and i find this.
safe to say, i won"t b bothering if its PL.
please tell me the horse disciplines r limit in that event :l
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Whoever wins will get no credibility.
There title will just be World Amateur Crapshoot Champion
I like the sound of that - might have a crack at it now.
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Whoever wins will get no credibility.
There title will just be World Amateur Crapshoot Champion
I like the sound of that - might have a crack at it now.
i knew it was a mistake posting that ::)
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Stud, and all of it"s variants, are supposed to be skill games, but they can only claim to be this if played with a Limit format.
+1
Agree.
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Will speak to DTD and get back to you
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Will speak to DTD and get back to you
Fingers crossed, I"ve been bigging these up as skill events all year....
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Hands up, my mistake
It will be played as Limit. the HORSE is obv Limit too
My apologies.
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Hands up, my mistake
It will be played as Limit. the HORSE is obv Limit too
My apologies.
Thanks for getting back so quick :)
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Damn!
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Hands up, my mistake
It will be played as Limit. the HORSE is obv Limit too
My apologies.
Yay !!!!
Thanks Richard.
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Hands up, my mistake
It will be played as Limit. the HORSE is obv Limit too
My apologies.
Bang goes plans for an early finish and drinking at the bar then.
gg, wp Tighty. ;D
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Hands up, my mistake
It will be played as Limit. the HORSE is obv Limit too
My apologies.
Phew.....TFFT.
Cheers Richard
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Magic
We"ll by you a soda water Leigh
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We"ll by you a soda water Leigh
I"ll call your soda water and raise you a lager shandy.
STRING RAISE. ;D
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Seriously, these limit events are a nightmare.
I"m still recovering from the H.O.R.S.E. heads up last year. I thought the Sky Poker TV guys were just going to pack and hit the road at one point. The funny thing is, Andrew Tracey did a great interview with Tikay afterwards, and I don"t think they ended up using the footage anyway. :D
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Andrew Tracey did a great interview with Tikay afterwards, and I don"t think they ended up using the footage anyway. :D
Phew, happy this is a limit event too.
Speaking of interviews, Sky never used mine either and I never got to see it! :(
Paul.
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Seriously, these limit events are a nightmare.
I"m still recovering from the H.O.R.S.E. heads up last year. I thought the Sky Poker TV guys were just going to pack and hit the road at one point. The funny thing is, Andrew Tracey did a great interview with Tikay afterwards, and I don"t think they ended up using the footage anyway. :D
;D
Your enthusiasm for the end of the event really came across at the time as well
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Seriously, these limit events are a nightmare.
I"m still recovering from the H.O.R.S.E. heads up last year. I thought the Sky Poker TV guys were just going to pack and hit the road at one point. The funny thing is, Andrew Tracey did a great interview with Tikay afterwards, and I don"t think they ended up using the footage anyway. :D
;D
Your enthusiasm for the end of the event really came across at the time as well
It was an immense heads up to watch, not sure what it was like for you two playing it.
I remember the final hand, and me saying "Which game were you playing ?", on one of you saying to the other "Not sure, which game were we playing ?" :D
A huge respect to those that can play the HORSE events and concentrate on the change of variations.
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Seriously, these limit events are a nightmare.
I"m still recovering from the H.O.R.S.E. heads up last year. I thought the Sky Poker TV guys were just going to pack and hit the road at one point. The funny thing is, Andrew Tracey did a great interview with Tikay afterwards, and I don"t think they ended up using the footage anyway. :D
;D
Your enthusiasm for the end of the event really came across at the time as well
It was an immense heads up to watch, not sure what it was like for you two playing it.
I remember the final hand, and me saying "Which game were you playing ?", on one of you saying to the other "Not sure, which game were we playing ?" :D
A huge respect to those that can play the HORSE events and concentrate on the change of variations.
lol, how many times that day Leigh when you asked "which game is it" did someone say "HORSE"?
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Event now capped at 48 runners, due to huge demands on dealers at DTD on Friday with three APAT events and their normal schedule
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That"s one way to make sure it sells out. ;D
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Event now capped at 48 runners, due to huge demands on dealers at DTD on Friday with three APAT events and their normal schedule
Fair enough.
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yahaay only 47 to beat for a medal :D
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yahaay only 47 to beat for a medal :D
Hopeful.....
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Leigh/Richard.
The starting stack was supposed to be 6000 but is mentioned as 3000 in the structure thread.
I hope the structure thread is just a typo....
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3000 is correct, played to dtd limit stud structure
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3000 is correct, played to dtd limit stud structure
Oh.....
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3000 is correct, played to dtd limit stud structure
Richard, what is that structure if you know?
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3000 is correct, played to dtd limit stud structure
Then can i have half my buy-in back....false advertising and all that? ;D
After all the HORSE has the same number of players and has a 6000 stack and is also limit
Now I realise an element of hypocrisy here on my part as I signed up without knowing any of the structure beforehand but in all seriousness, this moving goalpost thingy is wearing thin.
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I"ll post the structure when it is sent to me
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3000 is correct, played to dtd limit stud structure
Oh.....
FFS....
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Changing of goalposts here entirely down to issues with dtd resources on friday. Will all be resolved before this event, if necessary by speaking to them on thurs
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3000 is correct, played to dtd limit stud structure
Then can i have half my buy-in back....false advertising and all that? ;D
this moving goalpost thingy is wearing thin.
Maybe this is a sign Harrah"s will be next seasons sponsors ? ? ?
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Changing of goalposts here entirely down to issues with dtd resources on friday. Will all be resolved before this event, if necessary by speaking to them on thurs
Yeah...I get that...but would the goalposts have moved if the Stud had sold out the full 80 seats?
I suggest not. Surely DTD now have spare resources if they don"t have to deal to the additional 38 players?
OK, I realise that it doesn"t work like that (and I"m venting)...but DAMN!
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Changing of goalposts here entirely down to issues with dtd resources on friday. Will all be resolved before this event, if necessary by speaking to them on thurs
Yeah...I get that...but would the goalposts have moved if the Stud had sold out the full 80 seats?
Interesting point.
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Can I suggest that we just hang on until we get confirmation of the exact structure. It will be the one that DTD used in the Norwegian Championships, and it was very succesful.
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Relax, let me do the stressing lol
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Relax, let me do the stressing lol
OK....I"m trying hard not to criticise and just comment (see "hypocrisy comment" earlier)....but sometimes!
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Guessing 1st level -
Ante - 25 Small - 50 Big - 100 ?
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Guessing 1st level -
Ante - 25 Small - 50 Big - 100 ?
I"d hope it would be 5 - 10 to start.
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Guessing 1st level -
Ante - 25 Small - 50 Big - 100 ?
I"d hope it would be 5 - 10 to start.
Don"t think DTD have 5 or 10 point chips ?
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Guessing 1st level -
Ante - 25 Small - 50 Big - 100 ?
I"d hope it would be 5 - 10 to start.
Don"t think DTD have 5 or 10 point chips ?
You are starting to see the issues, hence worth just hanging on until Tighty gets it confirmed. Didn"t want this to delay making announcements of info for members.
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Okay I am going to do my best not to fan the flames on this thread and will also do the darnedest to avoid negativity.
Firstly I ended up cashing out of the stud when I bought online as I was sure there would be plenty of seats to buy in on the day, if the field has been cut due to lack of dealers then I am sure that if needed be the original number could be re-instated by offering some self-deal tables (Of course the dealer should be given gratis drinks for service)
Secondly, I have come to know that APAT Games have a great blind structure, ensuring and encouraging good play, I am not trying to jump the gun on this, I love playing stud and consider it to be a game of skill where players should not be forced to widen their range of starting hands or increase their aggressiveness to compete with blinds and antes in a turbo style game.
Thirdly, The stud tournament is on the same day of my daughters first birthday and I have accumulated many brownie points as to miss it to play the stud event, so I have to last at least 2 hours or I will doing the housework for the next six months :) No relevance to the game but thought I would mention it lol
I hope that everything is in place before the event to ensure that the stud event delivers the same standard of excellence associated with APAT tournaments
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Okay I am going to do my best not to fan the flames on this thread and will also do the darnedest to avoid negativity.
Firstly I ended up cashing out of the stud when I bought online as I was sure there would be plenty of seats to buy in on the day, if the field has been cut due to lack of dealers then I am sure that if needed be the original number could be re-instated by offering some self-deal tables (Of course the dealer should be given gratis drinks for service)
Secondly, I have come to know that APAT Games have a great blind structure, ensuring and encouraging good play, I am not trying to jump the gun on this, I love playing stud and consider it to be a game of skill where players should not be forced to widen their range of starting hands or increase their aggressiveness to compete with blinds and antes in a turbo style game.
Thirdly, The stud tournament is on the same day of my daughters first birthday and I have accumulated many brownie points as to miss it to play the stud event, so I have to last at least 2 hours or I will doing the housework for the next six months :) No relevance to the game but thought I would mention it lol
I hope that everything is in place before the event to ensure that the stud event delivers the same standard of excellence associated with APAT tournaments
Valid points and really hope the tournament lasts more than 2hrs for your sake my friend.
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Just to pick up a few points.
As far as I am aware, DTD do not allow self dealt tables in their tournaments.
To the best of my knowledge, there are currently still 10 seats available for the Stud event from the cashdesk at DTD.
We will ensure a structure that offers great value for everyone playing.
As Tighty posted elsewhere, "let him stress over making sure that happens".
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We will ensure a structure that offers great value for everyone playing.
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Seems a rash statement when the structure isn"t known yet
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Just to pick up a few points.
As far as I am aware, DTD do not allow self dealt tables in their tournaments.
To the best of my knowledge, there are currently still 10 seats available for the Stud event from the cashdesk at DTD.
We will ensure a structure that offers great value for everyone playing.
As Tighty posted elsewhere, "let him stress over making sure that happens".
Yes I understand, but I am not a member of DTD til I get there on the day which at setting off at 9am will be about 11.30-12ish So I maybe lucky to get a seat if they haven"t been snapped up, but there is no point trying to control the uncontrollable, I will see what happens, I am sure there maybe one or two cash games going on :D
I am so glad that Tighty is the man with the plan, I am sure he will come through, ... or die trying :D :D
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We will ensure a structure that offers great value for everyone playing.
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Seems a rash statement when the structure isn"t known yet
To coin a phrase
COMING SOON..........
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We will ensure a structure that offers great value for everyone playing.
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Seems a rash statement when the structure isn"t known yet
I don"t do rash statements Jon, I base my comments on the APAT events we have run in the past.
Tighty and DTD will get the structure as good as they possibly can for the players.
If after the event, any players have comments to make (other than bad beat stories), as always, we are there to listen and take note.
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We will ensure a structure that offers great value for everyone playing.
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Seems a rash statement when the structure isn"t known yet
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Tighty and DTD will get the structure as good as they possibly can for the players.
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That"s better
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One final point regarding buying into the Stud event.
A number of APAT members will be at DTD from Thursday for other events.
If you know and trust any of those players, they could buy you into the Stud event and sort the money when you arrive on Friday.
Just an idea. ;)
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One final point regarding buying into the Stud event.
A number of APAT members will be at DTD from Thursday for other events.
If you know and trust any of those players, they could buy you into the Stud event and sort the money when you arrive on Friday.
Just an idea. ;)
Sounds like a good idea ;) Only issue, I am not a member of the DTD til I arrive on the day
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i don"t mind asking them to hold you a seat if DTD will allow that
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You can register with DTD online, in advance, which I would recommend anyone who"s new to DTD to do, because when you get there, they will only point you over to the pc opposite the reception desk and ask you to fill in your details then.
You can fill in the Dusk Till Dawn Membership Form via this link (http://www.dusktilldawnpoker.com/join.php) and complete your registration by showing identification at the venue on your first day of play.
Getting someone to buy you in shouldn"t be a problem for DTD to deal with.
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We will ensure a structure that offers great value for everyone playing.
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Seems a rash statement when the structure isn"t known yet
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Tighty and DTD will get the structure as good as they possibly can for the players.
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That"s better
I"ll do my best. Rotten fruit will be available in the DTD Car Park as part of the Betfair added value to throw at me if necessary
The structure is known, it was successfully used for the Norwegian Poker Championships at DTD in 2008. Until I have it sent to me though, I"m unable to post it
So bear with me. It"s all a factor of my initial mistake in opting for PL 7CS, then changing it to limit at your request, then DTD expressing concerns about dealer capacity for dealing Limit then finding out there are no 5 and 10 denomination chips at DTD.
All will be sorted. (Exude air of confidence, look Number 3, from the Des Management Handbook c) APAT 2006)
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i don"t mind asking them to hold you a seat if DTD will allow that
Thanks mate, but to be absolutely honest, I would not feel comfortable asking anyone to do this for me, I know 100% I am good for this but when it comes to it I have to live by my code and I am sure the poker gods will ordain that I will have a seat :D but massively sincere thank yous for the kind offer
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The structure is known, it was successfully used for the Norwegian Poker Championships at DTD in 2008. Until I have it sent to me though, I"m unable to post it
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This one?
4pm £150 + £15 Seven Card Stud Limit Freezeout ... 5000 chips, 40 minute clock
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I should know tomorrow Jon.
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The Norwegian Championships event at DTD in 08 was 3,000 and 30 minutes.
This event, after consulting with DTD and Simon Trumper in particular, will be 4,000 chips and 30 minutes clock Limit Stud
Final answer.
I am still waiting for the structure spreadsheet to copy across having gone through it with Mr Trumper, but will post when I get it
Apologies for the confusion, hands up here its a fair cop.
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The Norwegian Championships event at DTD in 08 was 3,000 and 30 minutes.
This event, after consulting with DTD and Simon Trumper in particular, will be 4,000 chips and 30 minutes clock Limit Stud
Final answer.
I am still waiting for the structure spreadsheet to copy across having gone through it with Mr Trumper, but will post when I get it
Apologies for the confusion, hands up here its a fair cop.
Better, now, where do we find the rotten fruit again ?
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Better, now, where do we find the rotten fruit again ?
I"ll just pop down Tesco...they"ll have plenty. Would you like 6000 tomatoes or 3000? ;D
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Better, now, where do we find the rotten fruit again ?
I"ll just pop down Tesco...they"ll have plenty. Would you like 6000 tomatoes or 3000? ;D
4000 should be more than plenty. ;)
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Better, now, where do we find the rotten fruit again ?
I"ll just pop down Tesco...they"ll have plenty. Would you like 6000 tomatoes or 3000? ;D
5000 rotten Limes please.
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Looking at the structure now that Tighty"s kindly posted it, am I the only person thinking that 4k chips is on the short side, and 6k would be better?
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If DTD have run this before with the same structure (stack/blinds/clock) then it"s a fair bet that it"s not bad.
More chips is nearly always better.
My gripe (if I may) is that this event was announced as a Stud event with no other detail. I questioned what type of stud at the time but the answer didn"t come for some time.
Announce an event with no (apparent) decision as to game variant and/or structure? WTF?....Head scratcher that one.
OK, I understand that the announced stack (6000) was based on pot linit 7CS which, I think we can safely say, would have been a total shove fest and over in no time.
So...going forward, let"s see how this goes and hope that it goes OK. If not, then lesson learned for S5.
I"ll try and lean on Tighty to lean on Mr Trumper to boost the starting stack....Yeah, like that will happen!
Frankly, I would dump Stud for PLO8...but that"s just the way I roll...baby! ;D
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Nah, it makes sense to have a Stud Variant rather than 2 Omahahahahahahahaha side events. Pity we don"t have a draw game as well - PL Badugi anybody?
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How is the ante going to work?
Seems to say ante 25 bring in 25-50 level 50-100 etc. Is it one ante posted by a revolving button rather than all 8 players?
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How is the ante going to work?
Seems to say ante 25 bring in 25-50 level 50-100 etc. Is it one ante posted by a revolving button rather than all 8 players?
All 8 players post the ante
Lowest card after flop brings in
3rd and 4th street is the lowest level/limit and then on the highest
Players with an open pair on 4th street can bet the highest limit
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How is the ante going to work?
Seems to say ante 25 bring in 25-50 level 50-100 etc. Is it one ante posted by a revolving button rather than all 8 players?
Are you playing the Stud ?
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How is the ante going to work?
Seems to say ante 25 bring in 25-50 level 50-100 etc. Is it one ante posted by a revolving button rather than all 8 players?
Are you playing the Stud ?
Well I"ve bought a seat but the structure Richard has confirmed might make it an interesting situation! :)
So 8 players all post 25 so 200 in pot. Low card brings in theres 225 in pot.. anyone not got odds to call?
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So 8 players all post 25 so 200 in pot. Low card brings in theres 225 in pot.. anyone not got odds to call?
Ahhh...you have noted the beauty of Stud..it"s not about the odds like that, seriously.
Stud is all about not chasing even though you might think you have the odds. It"s about seeing what cards have already gone and NOT calling that single bet on the end even though your odds might be great.
Far too many people chase their supposed draws in Stud without paying attention to what others might have. Are you really chasing your gutshot straight even though you have only a 5% chance of hitting when the other guy is showing 3 or 4 cards to a flush?
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Either way, if we"re all posting antes every hand, by the third level enjoy the fun of having 10 big bets.
Please, Tighty, make it 6k, so we get some play in the game.
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So 8 players all post 25 so 200 in pot. Low card brings in theres 225 in pot.. anyone not got odds to call?
Ahhh...you have noted the beauty of Stud..it"s not about the odds like that, seriously.
Stud is all about not chasing even though you might think you have the odds. It"s about seeing what cards have already gone and NOT calling that single bet on the end even though your odds might be great.
Far too many people chase their supposed draws in Stud without paying attention to what others might have. Are you really chasing your gutshot straight even though you have only a 5% chance of hitting when the other guy is showing 3 or 4 cards to a flush?
You beat me to it....
Please can I have Redsimon on my table ??
KTHX
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No other Stud Tourny I have played, including WSOP, Orleans Open, Austrian Masters etc has such a ante heavy structure.
Guess the successful (26 runners, including those famous Norweigans Tony Kendall, Sam Trickett and Chinese Frankie) 2008 Norweigan structure must not have caught on ???
I will of course adjust, but can"t see this ending well :D
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The Norwegian event was 3000 chips, 30 minute clock
We are going with Simon Trumper"s recommendation. Feel free to take it up with him/us when you get here!
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So 8 players all post 25 so 200 in pot. Low card brings in theres 225 in pot.. anyone not got odds to call?
Ahhh...you have noted the beauty of Stud..it"s not about the odds like that, seriously.
Stud is all about not chasing even though you might think you have the odds. It"s about seeing what cards have already gone and NOT calling that single bet on the end even though your odds might be great.
Far too many people chase their supposed draws in Stud without paying attention to what others might have. Are you really chasing your gutshot straight even though you have only a 5% chance of hitting when the other guy is showing 3 or 4 cards to a flush?
You beat me to it....
Please can I have Redsimon on my table ??
KTHX
first player out bainn...
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Here"s the thing...I"m out by the way, thanks for asking....it"s been running for 4 hours plus and we"re only down to 1/2 the field.
It"s arguable that there is much play left but it hasn"t been the car crash poker that was, perhaps, being prophesied.
Do I think that 6000 would have been better?...Of course, but you aren"t going to please everyone all the time. Could the structure be tweaked to improve it? Perhaps...(and I"ll have a think on that one) but, so far, I"ll chalk this one up as a result for APAT, regardless of my finish.
2c.
Paulie.
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I had my initial reservations about the structure but it was a great event, to be honest 4000 was plenty of chips and as the blinds and antes increased I don"t think the extra 2k would have made much difference, I would also like to add the dealers did a terrific job on all the tables I was present, maybe next year you could add a 5 card stud event as well :)
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I do think the structure can be improved upon....add more chips but increase the completion/BB sizes from the start
25 ante/bring in and 50/100 is just silly IMHO.
25/50 and 150/300 is arguably better (and somewhat more logical) and gives "proper" play but it does need a lot more chips to work.
Add to that the lack of...ahem...proper play..did make the first few levels somewhat of a crapshoot...it wasn"t until level 6 or 7 that the blind sizes were large enough to give people pause in calling with cr*p...but by then there were only around 200 BB spread amongst 20 or so players.
However, the competing interests of the venue wanting to run the event as quickly as possible vs. APAT wanting to showcase an extremely well structured event vs. a small player base is always going to be a hard one to balance.
Other issues also worked against a longer/better structure...3 APAT events on the same day, 2 DTD tourneys and cash games besides.
Understand, I"m not criticizing APAT, they have a lot on their plate in putting this lot on for us every year...and it"s not often you can event find a live Stud tourney anywhere so anything is better than nothing.
Stud I like (and like to think I can play..results aside ;D) but I don"t see myself entering next year if things remain the same.
PLO8 now...FTW in S5.
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That"s all fair enough Paullie, you have most of issues outlined
We can take your and other comments on board for S5
For now, I am glad so many people enjoyed the event, slight reservations apart.