Amateur Poker Association & Tour
Poker Forum => Strategy => Topic started by: pokerpops on October 07, 2010, 10:25:39 AM
-
TEXAS_HOLDEM, NO_LIMIT, T5-87664024-74 played at "Table #3" for USD TC from 2010-10-07 04:08 until 2010-10-07 04:10
Seat 2: PokerPops_x (9,300 in chips)
Seat 6: supertorbin2 (2,580 in chips)
Seat 7: paksupete (3,760 in chips)
Seat 8: mitsakosss (14,480 in chips)
Seat 9: redsox669 (14,880 in chips)
ANTES/BLINDS
paksupete posts ante (60), mitsakosss posts ante (60), redsox669 posts ante (60), PokerPops_x posts ante (60), supertorbin2 posts ante (60), paksupete posts small blind (300), mitsakosss posts big blind (600),
PokerPops_x ac js
PRE-FLOP
redsox669 folds,
PokerPops_x raises to 1,800,
supertorbin2 folds,
paksupete folds,
mitsakosss calls 1,800.
FLOP [board cards: 5s 4h 6h ]
mitsakosss checks,
PokerPops_x bets 1,800,
mitsakosss calls 1,800.
TURN [board cards: 5s 4h 6h :3h: ]
mitsakosss checks,
PokerPops_x checks.
RIVER [board cards 5s 4h 6h :3h: jd]
mitsakosss bets 6,000, ............
-
I open smaller pre to ~1300 - w/ these blinds and stack sizes opening smaller is always good. Also means u can c/bet slightly smaller and not risk as many chips.
I def check back/give up turn.
We have no info on villain. Without into, river is a super snap fold. Struggling to find a hand we beat and cannot see much air in his range. Doubt he bets 88-1010 on river as it has sdv. I guess he can have hands like Ah4x that he turned into a bluff, but once u check back turn it doesnt look like he needs to.
so yea...fold
-
Only hand u are beating is kj with the k of hearts, but this is too creative because for that to happen, he would of had to float oop with this, and was planning on making a move on turn, then picked up a little somthing, and decided to opt for caution. But his 6 k river bet looks to big to be a blocker.
easy fold here i thnk.
-
hardly ever ahead here. easy fold.
preflop bet size is a little spewy
-
whats the buy in David? no reads? have u seen him play any hand upto now, non showdown as well as showdown..
it smells of bluff, if u had any sort of inkling that villain attacked weakness i would call [as played]...as marty suspects villain could well have air or turned a weaker hand into a bluff , hmmm...
your 3x raise pre given your stack size doesnt leave much room to cbet so check behind on the flop and try to get to a showdown or hit...
shove pre is the best option with the shorties behind plus blinds/antes , the bigger stack will only call 10% ish of the time at most..
agree with others if raising then its 2x to 2.5x at most..
-
it smells of bluff, if u had any sort of inkling that villain attacked weakness i would call [as played]...as marty suspects villain could well have air or turned a weaker hand into a bluff , hmmm...
fwiw - i dnt think he "could well have air or turned a weaker hand into a bluff," and I think calling is very very bad here without info that:
a) he is capable of floating w/ air
b) he is capable of turning weak hands into a bluff
Even with both those facts, I still fold most of the time, as after we check turn, most of villains range will have sdv against ours. Its not like villain thinks the J is a scare card. I also dnt think villain bets 6k into 7800 for value w/ anything worse than a set.
-
This is a $5 30 man on bf - not my normal game but I thought I"d have a whirl at a few.
No real reads on villain
I"m always interested in the concept of PF raises in tournaments and I guess that the consensus these days is 2.4/2.5x?
I"ll adjust
-
which is why i asked if David had any sort of read :) because tbh if i was in villains seat this is the sort of stunt i"d pull when playing lowish buy ins against players playing in a weak manner, if i had any sort of read that he checks a lot of his air range/ over cards etc after cbetting then i"m firing out on this scary board , do u think if most randoms checked the turn would they fold 50% of the time on the river??
yep in the play it solid world, i agree fold..
-
which is why i asked if David had any sort of read :) because tbh if i was in villains seat this is the sort of stunt i"d pull when playing lowish buy ins against players playing in a weak manner, if i had any sort of read that he checks a lot of his air range/ over cards etc after cbetting then i"m firing out on this scary board , do u think if most randoms checked the turn would they fold 50% of the time on the river??
yep in the play it solid world, i agree fold..
i think bet-sizing w/ air on river is usually different usually than 6k into 7800-- w/ given stack sizes.
-
exactly why i get alot of folds then :)
-
fwiw I called - it was a mental coin flip but with an edge towards calling because the bet size looked all wrong
he had ks tc
given the comments here I might adjust that decision a little towards folding in future. I do so love to make the hero call, but it can be expensive
-
I"m always interested in the concept of PF raises in tournaments and I guess that the consensus these days is 2.4/2.5x?
There"s an interesting bit of text on this in the current WPT Mag - see the Stuart Rutter article on stack sizes in the strategy section.
10 years ago, 4x or even 5x raises were the norm.... then two years 3x was the standard.... now with all the 3 and 4 betting on almost every hand, the smallest possible raise is best. You don"t want a situation where the pot is so bloated when the flop is dealt that a reasonable c-bet costs you a significant chunk.... keeping your raises smaller preflop allows for cheaper play post flop, whilst usually achieving the same goal.
-
The sicko regs now min raise pre
-
fwiw I called - it was a mental coin flip but with an edge towards calling because the bet size looked all wrong
he had ks tc
given the comments here I might adjust that decision a little towards folding in future. I do so love to make the hero call, but it can be expensive
Dont let the fact that you won the hand here makes you correct..... there is just so much that beats you in this hand and lets face it, its for your tournament. Hero calls are great, but are a) very rarely right and b) a lot easier live when you have visable reads as well as betting patterns.
As far as the betsizing is concerned i agree with everyone that it was too spewy. I prefer the Chris Fergerson method personally inbetween 2 and 3x the blinds but slightly more the earlier in position you get. That way you don"t giveaway and pre-flop info.
-
Before you pat yourself on the back too much think villian is unlucky you hit a jack. If the board pairs would u make the call with Ace high?
-
When-ever i seem to play one of the regular tournys at DTD recently, people seem to be opening for as high as 5x, Granted these are the smaller buy in donk fests, and full of really weird plays.
But i have been waching jason Mercier and Jovial Gent play recently online during the wcoop in the NL evnts. These are the 2 best online tourny playes in the world IMO. And every single time that they open, its for a min raise, even when there is antes to factor in also. (as long as they have chips behind to play post flop).
I think its because they are so comfortable at playing after the flop, they dont mind beign oop to a falt caller behind, and they dont mind the BB defending. Also when they get 3 bet, the pot is actually a little smaller because of the tiny opening raise.
-
Regarding your call, David. It was not a call i would of made, the villain got creative and was trying to rep a flush or straight, and it looked like he had it tbh. If i were him, i would be mad at myself for trying to rep against a station. ;)
-
pretty much what everyone else said dad.
not sure i can make the call on the river, but as mentioned would need more info on said villain.
as george said, you DID get lucky...
-
This is a $5 30 man on bf - not my normal game but I thought I"d have a whirl at a few.
No real reads on villain
I"m always interested in the concept of PF raises in tournaments and I guess that the consensus these days is 2.4/2.5x?
I"ll adjust
Until you are comfortable playing post flop then 2.5x rather than 2x , stick with your gut , if something doesn"t add up or that little voice in your head screams ""bullsh#t"" he is bluffing then go with your gut imho...
As long as you recognise when your inner voice is wrong more often than right then you can go about ways of rectifying it... Keep as focused as you can and try to follow bet patterns, how do villains play big hands and likewise pay as much attention to non showdown hands and try to fill in the blanks, its tough at first but slowly everything comes together and that little voice in the head is right more times than wrong...
-
Before you pat yourself on the back too much think villian is unlucky you hit a jack. If the board pairs would u make the call with Ace high?
george, I know what you mean, but I really wasn"t congratulating myself - I think these calls are a leak for me.
Not sure how unlucky the villain is though. He was only winning if he hit a K or a 10 or bet me off it. How would the debate on this hand have gone if it had been posted from his PoV?
Would I call on a paired board with A high? Probably not, but me being lucky with the river card isn"t necessarily the same as him being unlucky it was a J imo
Two things gained here - the reminder about bet-sizing PF and another about hero calls
-
Think the point Im trying to make is that if your gut tells you hes bluffing you should be able to make the call with A high. however I think ur deep level analysis was "I hit a jack, I have AJ, I call"
Not trying to sound patronising or critical just that I dont think youve actually analyised or thought about what villian could have in this spot.
-
AJ=A6?
Dnt think AJ=AK
-
5 handed, is this a shove pre?
-
5 handed, is this a shove pre?
15bbs deep, 5 handed, yes all day long. Shove pre.
-
george, I know what you mean, but I really wasn"t congratulating myself - I think these calls are a leak for me.
Not sure how unlucky the villain is though. He was only winning if he hit a K or a 10 or bet me off it. How would the debate on this hand have gone if it had been posted from his PoV?
some fundamentals for 5th street that i loosely follow :)
1 You can only make money on the river by getting better hands to fold or worse ones to call..
2 Only value bet the river if you believe a worse hand will call..
3 If bluffing the river then only do it if you believe a better hand will fold..
4 Sometimes it is better to check if you believe it will induce a bluff or worse hands to bet..
5 Be careful of betting if you are going to be unsure of what to do if re-raised..
6 Try to apply a bit of logic and reasoning when/if faced with a tricky river decision, be it should i bet or should i call, re-raise or fold...
These fundamentals apply to heads up, when in multi-way pots then a tad more caution is needed as now we need to beat 2 or more hands..
Pretty sure if i have missed something or a fellow APATer has a different take then please add to thread...
Ok David to get you thinking i"ll add some more thoughts to the above points..
Points 1,2 and 3 are pretty much connected to your hand/situation, what does villain check call flop, check turn then bet the river putting you to the decision for the rest of chips with when you have checked the turn showing weakness?
Does it look like he wants a call or a fold? Ok sometimes at a $5 buy in you get some plonker who can turn some sort of showdownable hand into a bluff, but i tend to see them check call or bet fold [not applicable here :)]
Why no check to possibly induce? What the hell is he trying to rep that he hopes you call? if he had a flush draw on the flop given the stack sizes, why did he not check raise? same applies to an overpair and sets? if he has a deuce or a seven why has he bet so much given your action on the turn that he hopes you call? why did he check the turn?
What does you leaving roughly 10bb behind after cbetting the flop and checking the turn look like to him?
This is best as i can in writing explain how i"d be breaking down this hand as it played out, hence i replied call to your post, putting villain on point 3...
thats my thoughts on it anyhoooos...
-
The problem is noble, we can only beat random floats which do not occur a lot at this level. We have to assume villain is capable of floating or turning hands w/sdv into a bluff. Most r not at this level. Calling here without reads is bad.
-
The problem is noble, we can only beat random floats which do not occur a lot at this level. We have to assume villain is capable of floating or turning hands w/sdv into a bluff. Most r not at this level. Calling here without reads is bad.
This is very true. And his sizing tells me that he probably does now what he"s doing because he"s polarizing his range with his bet size. I would fold this quite quickly in real time
-
George2nitty, Folding 2 pair in the wcoop, and now folding top top, gonna have to change your name.....
No this is defently a fold, How can calling here ever be +EV in the long run?? Even with Nobles breakdown analysis, im still strugling to find a call .
-
its all a bit meh with 15bbs really. sure there is a postflop discussion to be had, but i think how we start a hand with these stack sizes is probably more important.
not sure what the payouts are in a 30 man SNG/MTT but surely will also be a factor, especially if it is the bubble.we have two shorter stacks and some similar stacks.
In a vaccuum and as played it is probably a fold but i just don"t think i could do it as there are so many donks in these comps who just mash buttons. I may even be tempted to check back the flop as our hand is good here a high % of the time but can"t really take any heat if we bet.
However how important do we think preflop is with 15bbs and AJ?
In a normal MTT we shouldn"t be raise/folding anything pre with our stack size, we would usually keep our raises small to induce light resteals and to keep stealing cheap etc, but in this format of comp i think i would just prefer to jam or fold pre, i think this is more of a SNG conundrum than one in need of genuine MTT strat.