Amateur Poker Association & Tour
Poker Forum => Live Poker => Topic started by: kinboshi on November 14, 2007, 11:34:56 AM
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Once in an APAT National, and once in an APAT Regional I"ve had the clock called on me.
Now, usually I don"t take too long at all to make a decision when I"m playing. Most decisions can be made in 10 seconds or so without a problem.
Occasionally though, there"s a tough decision to be made that will affect my tournament survival (and maybe others" survival too). Then it"s my prerogative to take a little longer on my decision - and maybe work out the maths of the situation, determine what the other player could be holding, etc.
On both the occasions where the clock was called on me, I had tough decisions to make that could have determined my elimination from the tournament (or a tasty double-up). Both times the clock was called on me fairly quickly after it came round to my turn to act - maybe I"d been thinking for 30 seconds to a minute, and then the clock was called.
On both occasions the person calling the clock on me wasn"t involved in the hand.
I was discussing this with Ian (HaworthBantam) who thought this was against the APAT rules, and he dug out the following to back up what he thought:
44. Calling for the clock procedures: Once a reasonable amount of time has passed and a clock is called for, a player will be given one minute to make a decision.
If action has not been taken by the time the minute is over, there will be a ten second countdown. If a player has not acted on his hand by the time the countdown is over, the hand will be dead.
The following individuals, without exception, are entitled to call a clock on a player;-
a. Tournament Director.
b. Table Dealer.
c. Another player participating in that specific hand.
For the avoidance of doubt, the clock cannot be called on a player by another player who is not participating in the hand in question.
So, on both occasions, the clock was incorrectly called. Me, not knowing the rules, didn"t ask for a ruling from the TD. In both cases I folded, a decision I was almost ready to make before the clock was called.
In the Regional last week, I had raised pre-flop with AQ, and a stack I had covered but could still do me damage re-raised all in. I was going through the hands he"d shown earlier, how he"d been playing, and working out the maths of whether I should call or fold based on the range of hands and the probability he held each of the hands I could put him on. All of this takes a few minutes, and it"s hardly the end of the world for other players at the table. I"d expect others to take their time on this as well. That"s the game. The easy decisions are just that, it"s the tough ones that can often make or break the tournament for you.
It was another player on the table who called the clock on me, and it was only after 20 seconds or so after it had come back to me. Now I know he was in the wrong (according to APAT rules, not sure what the rule is elsewhere), and in the future I"ll ask for a ruling on this - which will take up more time and cause more disruption than if I"d been given a few minutes to think about it from the start.
So I have a few questions. Why do people feel it"s necessary to get involved and try to "speed things up"? What is a "reasonable time" before a clock is called? Would you or have you called the clock on someone - and was it because they"d already spent a "reasonable" amount of time thinking about their decision, or did you just want to put them under pressure or you couldn"t be bothered waiting a few minutes longer?
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If I"m not in the hand then, I"d usually keep quiet.
If I am in the hand then I"ll still keep quiet..I"m generally more afraid of giving information away than anything else.
APAT Rules aside...Players not in the hand do have a vested interest as time is elapsing and blinds are increasing but them"s the rules and we have to abide.
As for what is "reasonable"..how long is a piece of string?
In my sole opinion, I"d give him a minute, then fidget a bit to indicate I"m waiting, give another 30 secs, then call the clock. If he can"t decide in 2.5 minutes...he ain"t gonna.
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By the way, like I said I was close to making a decision on both occasions when the clock was called. But as I had a minute to act, I made sure that I took all of that time before making my action.
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I like to nudge players after about 90 sec in my mind thats a reasonable time, call the clock can cause friction and I have not had to do it yet at an APAT event.
My response is "you folding then" when the 90 sec"s is up usually they then make a move. My biggest bug bear is players out of the hand discussing the current action !
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68. Players are obliged to protect the other players in the tournament at all times. Discussing cards discarded or a hand possibility is not allowed.
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Thanks.........I no the rule, I then say excuse me you can"t discuss the hand your not in it. Some people get the hint others you have to be MORE direct 8)
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If you are not in the hand shut the F up.
Personnaly I would be quite happy to sit back and courteously wait.
In your case Dan, I would however have to make an exception and clock you after 5 seconds ;D ;D ;D
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I was playing at your table In luton when this happened Daniel. At the time I questioned the guy calling the clock (also called Dan) admittedly after the hand had been played and you folded. He said that anyone can call the clock and as he had a FT hockey top on didn"t question his knowledge.
I also remembering him apologising to you and saying that the reason he called the clock on you was because you had a "simple decision" and the blinds were about to go up.
I thought at the time this was unfair, but being inexperienced was not going to pipe up. You told me what you had (i"ll assume you weren"t lying) and given the state of your stack and the blinds etc you had possible reason to call and were going to make a mathematical decision.
Hope this is cleared up for the future
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I was playing at your table In luton when this happened Daniel. At the time I questioned the guy calling the clock (also called Dan) admittedly after the hand had been played and you folded. He said that anyone can call the clock and as he had a FT hockey top on didn"t question his knowledge.
Yes, it was Dan who made the final table in Walsall. I hadn"t sat there thinking for hours, maybe a minute at the most. I"d actually come to a decision and was about to fold when he called the clock. I decided that as I had at least another minute left to decide, I might as well use it all up - I mean, what"s the rush?
I also remembering him apologising to you and saying that the reason he called the clock on you was because you had a "simple decision" and the blinds were about to go up.
Yes, same as when people apologise when they outdraw you.
I thought at the time this was unfair, but being inexperienced was not going to pipe up. You told me what you had (i"ll assume you weren"t lying) and given the state of your stack and the blinds etc you had possible reason to call and were going to make a mathematical decision.
I can"t remember what I had now, but I remember at the time that it was a very close decision to call or not based on his possible range (which was huge). It certainly wasn"t a trivial decision.
I"m sure the rule elsewhere is that any player can call the clock (as technically everyone in a tournament is affected by any actions in the tournament) - but now I know the APAT rules, I will be making sure they are followed - especially when I"m involved in a hand.
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Think I was actually dealing on your table last saturday when the clock was called? We discussed the fact that the bloke was a complete arse after he was knocked out?
When he called the clock the thought crossed my mind that he had no right to! I deal a lot at casino"s etc but when your somewhere new your never quite sure of the house rules etc
Its a shame we couldnt have house dealers who were more up on these rules.
Did you manage to get a seat for Manchester??
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Im with Duke on this one :D
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Hi Stuart. Yes, he wasn"t the most pleasant was he?
I didn"t know the rules either - and that"s part of APAT's goal, to work towards standardised rules across all card rooms in the UK.
As you were volunteering to deal (and you did a bloody good job of it), you can"t be expected to enforce or make rulings. I was tempted to call the TD over for a ruling, but didn"t think it really needed it. The game had otherwise been played in good spirits and most at the table were friendly and enjoying themselves.
In the end, I made the right choice on that hand. Laid down the AQ to the other fella"s AK. Didn"t make a difference in the end though!
Yes, I"ve got a seat - so I"ll guess I"ll see you in Manchester.
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Im with Duke on this one :D
Which bit? All of it!! ;D
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LOL minus the bit about you honest :D
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I come from the old school of poker and for somebody not in the hand to call for the clock is a breach of basic table etiquette. In short, if you are out of the hand then you should show respect for those still in the hand. Activities such as discussing the hand in play, calling the clock etc are out or order.
I think that Rule 44 does need a tweak to cater for the Self-deal scenarios at the Regional Tournaments. In my view, if the dealer is playing in the competition, then they should not be allowed to call the clock irrespective of whether they are in the hand.
Also, should APAT produce a crib sheet for the Self-deal tournaments outlining what the dealer is expected to do and what should be left to the TD?
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Also, should APAT produce a crib sheet for the Self-deal tournaments outlining what the dealer is expected to do and what should be left to the TD?
I give out a list of rules to all the dealers at the tournaments that I TD - these are not BIG tournaments, I hasten to add. The final rule gives details of what the dealers are responsible for:-
a. Ensuring the running of the game as quickly and efficiently as possible.
b. Shuffling of the deck and ensuring that blinds are posted.
c. Dealing the cards to the players.
d. Dealing the flop, turn and river after burning a card prior to each round.
e. Prompting players to act when it is their turn.
f. Announcing all raises, calls or checks.
g. Ensuring that the correct number of chips go into the pot.
h. Ensuring that all main pots and side pots are kept separate and contain the correct number of chips.
i. Awarding the pot(s) to the winning player(s) of each hand.
j. Announcing when a card has been exposed, and which card it is. If any player exposes a card at the end of a hand to another player then that card must be shown to all players at the table.
These are pretty much common sense things. My suggestion would be that if anything occurs outside this range then it should be referred to the TD.
Just to be sure everyone understands, these are my instructions at my tournaments, not APATs .
Ian
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I"ve had the clock called on me in the past. Not in an APAT tournament I dont think, but in other tournaments. It also seems that once they"ve called the clock on you once they do it again and again even when you"ve had no time to think on a decision.
I always sit around waiting for the end of the time period once a clock has been called on me, and if I didnt agree with the clock being called, I"ll make it known that I"m p***ing away the time too.
I personally dont call clocks myself, I let my opponents decide, and I certainly dont think about calling clocks when I"m not in the hand. I dont think its right so long as the player hasnt take like 5 minutes thinking time.
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This happened to me in the Luton event. I was in the hand and had put a guy all-in, he took a few minutes to think about it and another player suggested I ask for a clock, which I didn"t want to do cause I was on a steal and didn"t want to look weak. I"d be quite happy if other players not involved in the hand could call the clock, everyone has a vested interest in every hand. The blinds go up and short stacks want the game to progress.
I do think some players are a little impatient though, I think you have to bear in mind that a lot of the APAT live games are played by players who are predominantly online players who expect all decisions to be made in 20 seconds as that"s all you get online, so when they play live and see players taking a few minutes it seems unreasonable.
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I"ve seen the rule that only players involved in the hand can call the clock and I think it"s a good one.
In Brighton there were some players who took a very, very long time to make a couple of decisions and nobody called a clock on them - which I think is a good indication of how it was, mainly, a very good natured tournament with nobody looking to sneak an edge in.
I"ve had the clock called on me twice - one of those was when we were down to 3 tables at the Razz WSOP and I was chip leader (not all that information is strictly necessary for context, but I thought I"d add it anyway). It was probably a good job that the clock was called in that instance though - because I didn"t realise that it was my turn to act :D
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I know the rules and I dont like them - heres why.
At the regional on Saturday I was the short stack on my table with 2 tables left.
There was 1 hand where UTG moved all in with a shortish stack (I also folded from early postion).
The small blind then took at least 5 minutes (if not more) to fold.
Once he had folded the BB then said "How much?" then took at least another 5 minutes to fold.
As I was already out of the hand I knew I couldnt call clock but with the next blind level fast approaching I was concious that I was the one who would be most impacted by the change of ante.
I sat there in disbelief and very nearly broke the rule to call time. The BB then taking another 5 minutes beggared belief. How much? - you are having a laugh. He shoudl have been completely ready for his decision either way (if the SB called or raised or folded). His actions should have been ready for all outcomes of the SB decision.
So - Im not in the hand but Im the one it affects the most re the changing blinds at a critical time in my tournament.
Thoughts?
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Also, should APAT produce a crib sheet for the Self-deal tournaments outlining what the dealer is expected to do and what should be left to the TD?
I give out a list of rules to all the dealers at the tournaments that I TD - these are not BIG tournaments, I hasten to add. The final rule gives details of what the dealers are responsible for:-
a. Ensuring the running of the game as quickly and efficiently as possible.
b. Shuffling of the deck and ensuring that blinds are posted.
c. Dealing the cards to the players.
d. Dealing the flop, turn and river after burning a card prior to each round.
e. Prompting players to act when it is their turn.
f. Announcing all raises, calls or checks.
g. Ensuring that the correct number of chips go into the pot.
h. Ensuring that all main pots and side pots are kept separate and contain the correct number of chips.
i. Awarding the pot(s) to the winning player(s) of each hand.
j. Announcing when a card has been exposed, and which card it is. If any player exposes a card at the end of a hand to another player then that card must be shown to all players at the table.
These are pretty much common sense things. My suggestion would be that if anything occurs outside this range then it should be referred to the TD.
Just to be sure everyone understands, these are my instructions at my tournaments, not APATs .
Ian
Ian,
Excellent, just the sort of list I was alluding to. In my experience at the 2 regional tournaments at the Vic, somebody who is new to dealing confines themselves to items c and d only. As you are a Regional Manager, is there any chance that you can get this issue debated within APAT in time for the next Regionals in December?
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I know the rules and I dont like them - heres why.
At the regional on Saturday I was the short stack on my table with 2 tables left.
There was 1 hand where UTG moved all in with a shortish stack (I also folded from early postion).
The small blind then took at least 5 minutes (if not more) to fold.
Once he had folded the BB then said "How much?" then took at least another 5 minutes to fold.
As I was already out of the hand I knew I couldnt call clock but with the next blind level fast approaching I was concious that I was the one who would be most impacted by the change of ante.
I sat there in disbelief and very nearly broke the rule to call time. The BB then taking another 5 minutes beggared belief. How much? - you are having a laugh. He shoudl have been completely ready for his decision either way (if the SB called or raised or folded). His actions should have been ready for all outcomes of the SB decision.
So - Im not in the hand but Im the one it affects the most re the changing blinds at a critical time in my tournament.
Thoughts?
Are they the sort of people, that if you want them to laugh on a Monday, you tell them a joke on the Friday.............
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Also, should APAT produce a crib sheet for the Self-deal tournaments outlining what the dealer is expected to do and what should be left to the TD?
I give out a list of rules to all the dealers at the tournaments that I TD - these are not BIG tournaments, I hasten to add. The final rule gives details of what the dealers are responsible for:-
a. Ensuring the running of the game as quickly and efficiently as possible.
b. Shuffling of the deck and ensuring that blinds are posted.
c. Dealing the cards to the players.
d. Dealing the flop, turn and river after burning a card prior to each round.
e. Prompting players to act when it is their turn.
f. Announcing all raises, calls or checks.
g. Ensuring that the correct number of chips go into the pot.
h. Ensuring that all main pots and side pots are kept separate and contain the correct number of chips.
i. Awarding the pot(s) to the winning player(s) of each hand.
j. Announcing when a card has been exposed, and which card it is. If any player exposes a card at the end of a hand to another player then that card must be shown to all players at the table.
These are pretty much common sense things. My suggestion would be that if anything occurs outside this range then it should be referred to the TD.
Just to be sure everyone understands, these are my instructions at my tournaments, not APATs .
Ian
Ian,
Excellent, just the sort of list I was alluding to. In my experience at the 2 regional tournaments at the Vic, somebody who is new to dealing confines themselves to items c and d only. As you are a Regional Manager, is there any chance that you can get this issue debated within APAT in time for the next Regionals in December?
I"m not so sure that we can ask or tell somebody, who is volunteering to deal, to follow these guidelines. Playing, dealing, and keeping control of a table can seriously affect your own game.
If any player who volunteers wants to use these guidelines then fair enough, but I"d feel a little uncomfortable telling volunteer dealers to use them.
Ian
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He said that anyone can call the clock and as he had a FT hockey top on didn"t question his knowledge.
Should have had him ejected. No sports tops allowed at Luton!
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I personally won"t call a clock unless A) I was in the hand, B) The person had been given several minutes to think things through, (in the case mentioned regarding SB taking 5 mins, then I would probably only wait a further minute for the BB) C) The person is talking or otherwise obviously not sat there with a dilema.
I would also think about how the person plays most hands and take that into consideration before calling a clock. i.e. if the majority of hands are acted upon quite quickly, then they deserve more leaway on the few that need extra time.
I have during both regionals and the national had the odd hand that needed this extra time, and fortunately for me have never had the clock called.
;D
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Not read any posts so apologise if repetiton.
My view is you can call clock if you"re sat on the table. Just cos you"re not in the hand u still have avested interest esp. if you"re short stacked.
I don"t mind when a player has a big decision giving them a bit of time but what annoys me is "serial time wasters" who take absoloutely ages to make any decision- instead of getting a decent amount of hands per level ur at a disadantage cos someone takes 5 mins everytime. Annoying!!!
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Not read any posts so apologise if repetiton.
My view is you can call clock if you"re sat on the table. Just cos you"re not in the hand u still have avested interest esp. if you"re short stacked.
I don"t mind when a player has a big decision giving them a bit of time but what annoys me is "serial time wasters" who take absoloutely ages to make any decision- instead of getting a decent amount of hands per level ur at a disadantage cos someone takes 5 mins everytime. Annoying!!!
Might be your opinion, but not within APAT rules.
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Not read any posts so apologise if repetiton.
My view is you can call clock if you"re sat on the table. Just cos you"re not in the hand u still have avested interest esp. if you"re short stacked.
I don"t mind when a player has a big decision giving them a bit of time but what annoys me is "serial time wasters" who take absoloutely ages to make any decision- instead of getting a decent amount of hands per level ur at a disadantage cos someone takes 5 mins everytime. Annoying!!!
Might be your opinion, but not within APAT rules.
Yup but this is where the standardised rules comes into play again. You SHOULD be able to call time if your sat on a table and not in the hand
Hypothetical example. Blinds 200/400- about to go up in 12 mins
Ur stack is 3200- u still just about have fold equity.
Two players in a pot one is taking AGES but the othe rperson in the hand is showing no indication of calling time. Suddenly your number of big blinds is potentially going from 8 to just over 4 cos you have no power to call time. Is this right???
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Not read any posts so apologise if repetiton.
My view is you can call clock if you"re sat on the table. Just cos you"re not in the hand u still have avested interest esp. if you"re short stacked.
I don"t mind when a player has a big decision giving them a bit of time but what annoys me is "serial time wasters" who take absoloutely ages to make any decision- instead of getting a decent amount of hands per level ur at a disadantage cos someone takes 5 mins everytime. Annoying!!!
Might be your opinion, but not within APAT rules.
Yup but this is where the standardised rules comes into play again. You SHOULD be able to call time if your sat on a table and not in the hand
Hypothetical example. Blinds 200/400- about to go up in 12 mins
Ur stack is 3200- u still just about have fold equity.
Two players in a pot one is taking AGES but the othe rperson in the hand is showing no indication of calling time. Suddenly your number of big blinds is potentially going from 8 to just over 4 cos you have no power to call time. Is this right???
If you don"t let anybody at the table call the clock then some people could take advantage like this.
If you let anybody at the the table call the clock then some people could take advantage by continually calling it on people - either way could be taken advantage of. However, I think that the imperative should be that if somebody has a difficult decision to make then they should, by and large, have as much time as they need to make it - this is favoured by restricting the number of people who can call they clock.
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Not read any posts so apologise if repetiton.
My view is you can call clock if you"re sat on the table. Just cos you"re not in the hand u still have avested interest esp. if you"re short stacked.
I don"t mind when a player has a big decision giving them a bit of time but what annoys me is "serial time wasters" who take absoloutely ages to make any decision- instead of getting a decent amount of hands per level ur at a disadantage cos someone takes 5 mins everytime. Annoying!!!
Might be your opinion, but not within APAT rules.
Yup but this is where the standardised rules comes into play again. You SHOULD be able to call time if your sat on a table and not in the hand
Hypothetical example. Blinds 200/400- about to go up in 12 mins
Ur stack is 3200- u still just about have fold equity.
Two players in a pot one is taking AGES but the othe rperson in the hand is showing no indication of calling time. Suddenly your number of big blinds is potentially going from 8 to just over 4 cos you have no power to call time. Is this right???
If you don"t let anybody at the table call the clock then some people could take advantage like this.
If you let anybody at the the table call the clock then some people could take advantage by continually calling it on people - either way could be taken advantage of. However, I think that the imperative should be that if somebody has a difficult decision to make then they should, by and large, have as much time as they need to make it - this is favoured by restricting the number of people who can call they clock.
How would u then deal with hypothetical sitution above? Just accept that your dwindling stack is going to get weaker???
Personally whenever I have played live or at an APAT national people have always respected difiicult decisions and only called clock when sufficient time has been taken.
I called the clock once in Luton on the bubble- the guy had taken around 5 mins to make a decision and I wanted to put pressure on him (I was i the hand) The dealer said that because the decision was for his tournament that he had not yet had enough time.
Again going back to the standerdised rules discussion- shoudl clock be called by the dealer or TD rather than the players?
Online you get a certain amount to act and the a time bank? Is this a model that could be adapted for the live game?
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44. Calling for the clock procedures: Once a reasonable amount of time has passed and a clock is called for, a player will be given one minute to make a decision.
If action has not been taken by the time the minute is over, there will be a ten second countdown. If a player has not acted on his hand by the time the countdown is over, the hand will be dead.
The following individuals, without exception, are entitled to call a clock on a player;-
a. Tournament Director.
b. Table Dealer.
c. Another player participating in that specific hand.
For the avoidance of doubt, the clock cannot be called on a player by another player who is not participating in the hand in question.
So, here"s the thing, if I"m not in the hand, I can"t call the clock myself...fair enough.
But to protect my interest, given the short stack scenario, can I ask the TD to review the position and call it? Sort of an "indirect" clock as it were.
Surely, other players should not be disadvantaged because a player is "delaying" the action even if that person has a difficult decision. Do not all players (and the TD) have the obligation to protect the other players (which is also in the APAT Rules).
But then it"s all down to a subjective interpretation of "reasonable"..apples/oranges!
I would not want to see "live" play become more like "online" with decisions being made within set limits. This, IMO, is there to speed up the action for the site rather than for the players.
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Online you get a certain amount to act and the a time bank? Is this a model that could be adapted for the live game?
That would be a little difficult to administer, wouldn"t you think ?
Hypothetical example. Blinds 200/400- about to go up in 12 mins
Ur stack is 3200- u still just about have fold equity.
Two players in a pot one is taking AGES but the other person in the hand is showing no indication of calling time. Suddenly your number of big blinds is potentially going from 8 to just over 4 cos you have no power to call time. Is this right???
If the blinds were not due to go up for another 30 minutes, would you still have the same worry ? Players should have the right to the time required to make a difficult decision, imho, irrespective of the amount of time remaining to the next blind level.
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Hypothetical example. Blinds 200/400- about to go up in 12 mins
Ur stack is 3200- u still just about have fold equity.
Two players in a pot one is taking AGES but the other person in the hand is showing no indication of calling time. Suddenly your number of big blinds is potentially going from 8 to just over 4 cos you have no power to call time. Is this right???
If the blinds were not due to go up for another 30 minutes, would you still have the same worry ? Players should have the right to the time required to make a difficult decision, imho, irrespective of the amount of time remaining to the next blind level.
I think you"ve got it right here Haworth, the players should have as long as they need to make a difficult decision. A side effect is that it might damage other players prospects, but as long as they were genuinely using the time to decide rather than angle shooting then I think this is just unfortunate - the players in the hand shouldn"t lose out.
If a player was taking a very long time over every single hand then the dealer or TD should notice and start calling the clock on them to minimize the risk of angle shooting. Alternatively you could do what Katja Thater did at the WSOP Razz tournament and just stand up and have a very loud rant at them. It might make them feel a bit more self conscious when they take a long time over a hand in the next few rounds, but even if it doesn"t it"ll make you feel better to let it all out. :)
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Hypothetical example. Blinds 200/400- about to go up in 12 mins
Ur stack is 3200- u still just about have fold equity.
Two players in a pot one is taking AGES but the other person in the hand is showing no indication of calling time. Suddenly your number of big blinds is potentially going from 8 to just over 4 cos you have no power to call time. Is this right???
If the blinds were not due to go up for another 30 minutes, would you still have the same worry ? Players should have the right to the time required to make a difficult decision, imho, irrespective of the amount of time remaining to the next blind level.
I think you"ve got it right here Haworth, the players should have as long as they need to make a difficult decision. A side effect is that it might damage other players prospects, but as long as they were genuinely using the time to decide rather than angle shooting then I think this is just unfortunate - the players in the hand shouldn"t lose out.
If a player was taking a very long time over every single hand then the dealer or TD should notice and start calling the clock on them to minimize the risk of angle shooting. Alternatively you could do what Katja Thater did at the WSOP Razz tournament and just stand up and have a very loud rant at them. It might make them feel a bit more self conscious when they take a long time over a hand in the next few rounds, but even if it doesn"t it"ll make you feel better to let it all out. :)
Name dropper :P
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It was an entirely appropriate example to use.
If I wanted to name drop I could have added that it was Men the Master who she was having a rant at - but I didn"t.
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;D
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If the player involved doesn"t call the clock, the dealer can. That"s what they"re there for.
Unless it"s dealer dealt, and then it would make sense for a player to call the TD for him to watch and then call the clock.
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I don"t think I"d ever call for a clock if it was a situation where someone was playing for tournament life, they are under enough pressure without someone asking them to hurry up. If it was taking absolutely ages, then I guess it"s fair enough, but I think a few minutes to think about major decisions is perfectly acceptable.
If it was for only a small pot or they are doing it every time, then that would be a different matter.
But then I"m a nice guy :D
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Well played in the GUKPT Graham.
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Thanks :D
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I personally will leave a player 5 minutes before calling clock, as this is what I would expect myself. Regardless of decision type/stage of game. Everyone has their own factors to weigh up.
If someone abused the time/constantly dallied then it may be another matter altogether.
Interestingly I have had really annoying clocks put on me in Germany.
The first was at the EPT, when the DEALER put the clock on me after less than a minute. I scoffed; he told me u have a minute to play as a local rule. I didn"t get a TD and made the decision but was fuming. It was only when a large number of BIG name players were subjected to this that it became apparent. The TD then quashed the "local ruling".
Recently I played a cash game. I had been thinking for 20 seconds and the guy called clock!!!!! I laughed at him and told him in English you cannot do that in a cash game. He told me otherwise. I laughed and told him what I thought of him. He ridiculed me in German, so, after the dealer backed him up I decided to have my fun. EVERY single time he dawdled more than 3 seconds I put clock on him for the rest of the evening :-)
Needless to say I don"t think he likes me...
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Personally im a patient guy and it doesnt bother me anyway but when i see its bothering other players I slow down then ;D
I believe if its a 2 way pot then noone else should be allowed to have an influence on the way a hand plays out and that is exactly what calling the clock does. I certainly dont respect any players who regularly call for it.
Even if they are "Hollywooding" then why make it obvious to the rest? look for physical differences when he is disinterested in a hand and is just showboating and use it against him later on when he shows the same signs.
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Recently I played a cash game. I had been thinking for 20 seconds and the guy called clock!!!!! I laughed at him and told him in English you cannot do that in a cash game. He told me otherwise. I laughed and told him what I thought of him. He ridiculed me in German, so, after the dealer backed him up I decided to have my fun. EVERY single time he dawdled more than 3 seconds I put clock on him for the rest of the evening :-)
Needless to say I don"t think he likes me...
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Quality !!! lol
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APAT rules clearly state that only the players involved in the hand are allowed to call for the clock.
With the influx of Internet Players into the live game I think it has become more of a problem with the clock being called for more. They are so used to only having such a short amount of time to react that they think live poker should be the same. Even on line you get them typing ZZZZZZZZ when somebody takes their alloted time...
If you watch any of the poker on tv the pros" will take their time to make a decision and at times in a tournament you need the time to work out the odds etc as Kinboshi said.
Its easy for somebody to say "its an easy decision for you fold..." but they don"t know what you are holding or the history between you and the other player.
When I have a decision to make I always tell the dealer that I need "Time".
Its not only in this country but it also happened to me in Vegas. In a $500 buyin festival deepstack tournament at The Venetian. I had been thinking for about 30 secs when I asked the dealer for "Time" within 2 secs a player not involved in the hand called for the clock. I immediately got ansty with the player and told him he was well out of order that that I had asked for "time". The tournament director was called and was not amused when he was informed that the clock had been called so quickly after I had asked for time. He allowed me one minute before he started the clock. I folded my hand more because I was so annoyed and couldn"t think properly than what I thought the other player had. The other player showed me his hand and said it was a good fold but also said outloud that the other player was "out of order" for calling the clock so quickly. Thankfully he didn"t last much longer.
So in summary I think it is always wise to tell the dealer you need "time".