Amateur Poker Association & Tour
Poker Forum => Strategy => Topic started by: shozboy1 on December 06, 2010, 12:05:06 PM
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Hi, just want some views on this hand. Its not a badbeat story...
final table of divi 2 league game last night. blinds 300/600 (60). I"m around 3rd in chips with 21000.
Hand 1 - for info only. I pick up KK UTG+1. Raise to 1465. called by the BB. Checked to me on flop, cbet 1/2 pot on a J high dry board - take it down.
Next hand straight after. Pick up AA UTG. Raise to 1465. Called on the button by big stack with around 36000. (who obv isnt the player in the above hand)
Pot is around 5200 ca. Flop comes Q-9-2 rainbow. Cbet 1/2 pot again around 2500 leaving ca 16000 behind. Button is only player in hand - raises me to 5900 ca. I tank for 5 secs or so and call. Turn comes a King. I half pot bet again - roughly 7-8000, leaving the same amount behind. Button raises all in and I call off the last 7-8000.
This isn"t a post about reads. Btn showed J10 for turned straight. I guess my question is what people think about the flop play. I"m inclined to think that if I"d shoved the flop over his reraise (4bet or whatever you call it) he may have just folded. A quick calculation indicates to me he would have had pot odds of about 2-1 to call which are compelling from his point of view. However, pot odds aren"t everything - he may have folded given his commanding chip lead.
What do peole think?
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If I flat his flop raise, I dnt lead half pot on the turn leaving no f/e for villain. If flat first, then check/jam turn. Obv the K is a dirty card, but without more info and with our spr we cannot fold.
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Unless you"re planning to fold if a scare card comes on the turn (which you obv weren"t as you still got it in when the straight completed), I see no logical reason for calling his raise on the flop. At this stage of this tournament, I"m going to be more than happy to play for stacks, and when he raises the flop, you have the ideal spot to get your stack in. I would expect him to fold his draw much of the time here giving you a nice pot.
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regarding that last point. That"s the real stinker with this hand. I mistakenly in the heat of the moment thought he may have been either making a move on me (having seen me cbet 1/2 pot the prev hand and quite a few others prior to FT and trying to put me to a test) or had some marginal holding like Q10/QJ which I thought he might throw away to a flop 4 bet shove.
If I"d 4 bet shoved the flop and he"d called with the open ender than I wouldn"t have minded busting. It feels with this one though that I could"ve raked myself a nice pot and more importantly, stayed alive in the tourney if I"d just shoved
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It feels with this one though that I could"ve raked myself a nice pot and more importantly, stayed alive in the tourney if I"d just shoved
^^this, but more importantly, there are many hands worse than yours that he might call with, plus you are charging him to chase any draws. Flatting gives him free cards for draws, as well as letting him get marginal top pair hands to showdown cheaply.
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thanks
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im always jamming his flop raise, raises on flop with draws usually go check check on the turn if neither improve or for pot control but your flat on the flop, as others said, is giving him a free card to outdraw you with his J10 or if he had a KQ type hand
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prefer 3bet flop but if you are going to call flop, leading a terrible turn card makes zero sense
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Super reverse implied odds scenario this.
When villain re pops the flop there"s ~$14k in the pot and you have $16k behind.
Flatting leaves it at $17k in the pot and $12,600 behind, when you flat here its somewhat likely that when you win the hand you"ll take down the current pot size ( no more of villains $$ go in) but when you lose, the pot is almost always gonna be juiced with your last $12.6K.
Shipping over his flop raise always.
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Your pot sizes are a bit off I think aren"t they? Max ten handed table there can only be just over 4,300 in the pot according to the action not 5,200. After your pot sized bet you"ve also got about 20k left not 16..but no matter, either way I"d shove it all in once he re-raises.
You"re telling the guy many different stories with your betting here also. What were you trying to represent just out of interest? Initially strong pre-flop, strong again with the continuation bet, but weak by flat calling his re-pop, then strong again betting into him on the turn!?
It"s all a bit fancy schmansy for me. Once he re-pops you on the flop there"s 12k in the pot, just shove and then you don"t have to do anymore thinking until the next hand or if you bust out, the next tournament. It"s easier this way. Too much thinking can be counter-productive. I like to ration out my thinking elsewise my eyes glaze over and I feel a bit queasy.
Just as an aside from this..can I just ask why t"internet players raise such obscure amounts? 1465 for example..is there a purpose to this? Why not just make it 1400 or 1500 or if you"re feeling crazy 1450. I"ve never understood the reasoning behind these kind of bets.
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Regarding the hand i"m with others. Definitely shoving once he re-raises the flop. Plenty in the pot and no need to get fancy here. If he has you beat so be it but i"m not letting him hit his draw without paying if he hasn"t already got me beat.
Just as an aside from this..can I just ask why t"internet players raise such obscure amounts? 1465 for example..is there a purpose to this? Why not just make it 1400 or 1500 or if you"re feeling crazy 1450. I"ve never understood the reasoning behind these kind of bets.
According to Jennifear, top online player (and poker coach) .....
"Your opponent is trying to make his bet "look" big, because the stack will look large. Don't be fooled. He doesn't have much. Someone with AA preflop, or the nuts, will try to not look deceptive in any way."
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Dont know why the obscure amounts. It probably is to do with the "stack size" looking bigger then it actually is on the felt. But then again, it defeats the object because I do it with all hands out of habit now - including the AA above. You"ll be pleased to know I rarely pick obscure amounts in live play for fear of being whacked!
It was originally picked up from watching Jason Somerville play online. Thought it might make my results close to his! (not worked yet)
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Hi, just want some views on this hand. Its not a badbeat story...
final table of divi 2 league game last night. blinds 300/600 (60). I"m around 3rd in chips with 21000.
Hand 1 - for info only. I pick up KK UTG+1. Raise to 1465. called by the BB. Checked to me on flop, cbet 1/2 pot on a J high dry board - take it down.
Next hand straight after. Pick up AA UTG. Raise to 1465. Called on the button by big stack with around 36000. (who obv isnt the player in the above hand)
Pot is around 5200 ca. Flop comes Q-9-2 rainbow. Cbet 1/2 pot again around 2500 leaving ca 16000 behind. Button is only player in hand - raises me to 5900 ca. I tank for 5 secs or so and call. Turn comes a King. I half pot bet again - roughly 7-8000, leaving the same amount behind. Button raises all in and I call off the last 7-8000.
This isn"t a post about reads. Btn showed J10 for turned straight. I guess my question is what people think about the flop play. I"m inclined to think that if I"d shoved the flop over his reraise (4bet or whatever you call it) he may have just folded. A quick calculation indicates to me he would have had pot odds of about 2-1 to call which are compelling from his point of view. However, pot odds aren"t everything - he may have folded given his commanding chip lead.
What do peole think?
Sorry its late about the post but i had to say something as its about my team mate and i actually watched the hand. Imho as the guy called the raise (and had the chip lead) i would of been wary of the call. I would of checked or continued betted (which is ok) but as he re raised i would of definitely thinked of either flat calling or even folding. You all might be very surprised at this but remember you were third in chips and still in the points AND the money. A lot of people would think that this is weak play but to me i think that too many people get married to big pocket pairs. REMEMBER, its only a pair. If you get married to queens it usually ends in divorce lol, kings, an ace pops up and aces, you lose to trips or in your case a str8. If chip leader called your raise of 1465 then he/she must of had a biggish starting hand, so when two connecting cards like a q and 9 show, you have to fear the worst, so in hindsight i would err to checking the flop as i knew i would still be ahead (hopefully) and because i was out of position, i could get off the hand as cheaply as possible if the big bet happens which it did. AA is a bad hand for the devilfish too so dont think its invincible and hope this helps :) oh yes, ........ merry xmas c",)