Amateur Poker Association & Tour
Poker Forum => General Discussion => Topic started by: WarBwastardo on March 28, 2011, 21:51:50 PM
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What has been the overall impression of the new structure? It seemed like final table has fairly deep stacks in relation to the blinds but quite a late finish for a 150 runner tourny..11:30ish? Any maths boffins want to take a stab at estimating how late a 200 runner event would finish?
I"m going out to buy some noodles, I want this discussed in depth before I return. Say fifteen minutes. Maybe 20 as I don"t know where my shoes are.
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(http://www.math.vanderbilt.edu/~schectex/courses/cubic/cubic.gif)
where x = number of hours - should finish about 3pm day 2 8)
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i liked it.
but then i wasnt playing :)
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to be fair this equation doesn"t make sense to me ??? ;D
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It worked v well. 2 early additional levels popular. We hit a final a while earlier than normal then had loads of play with the money at stake. No matter the bigger the antes the play tightened a lot end of day 1 but strategies definitely had to change at other points. We"ve never had an apat final under any structure go beyond 20-40k blinds. A 200 runner event wouldn"t end much later
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I can"t comment on how late a 200 runner would finish but I"m willing to believe Tighty.
For me, it pushed me to play a more aggressive game than I would normally, definitely outside of my normal comfort zone. I"m not criticising it...it opened my eyes to a different style and had me thinking a lot more.
Frankly, having to think more about opening my range and seeing if others were doing the same (lots weren"t) drained me both mentally and physically....I was wrung out good and proper at the end of Day 1.
Overall, I like it.
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probably the most absorbing final table I can remember.
Structure was a surefire winner. I would normally worry about too late a finish, but the bigger antes would help hurry things along a bit.
What are the plans for DTD and the bigger stacks? Is it 2 day 1s or a proper 3 dayer??
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Is it 2 day 1s or a proper 3 dayer??
Two "Day 1"s and a Day 2
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Is it 2 day 1s or a proper 3 dayer??
Two "Day 1"s and a Day 2
In that case, will be interesting to see what time this one finishes with 400 runners and 15K stacks. Count me in!!
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Structure was excellent. Gave loads more room for a play. Long may it last
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At dtd we will be playing later on the first days. This weekends dtd deepstack is 15000 for the first time, c300 runners and two days. I am updating it and looking for timing clues!
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What has been the overall impression of the new structure? It seemed like final table has fairly deep stacks in relation to the blinds but quite a late finish for a 150 runner tourny..11:30ish? Any maths boffins want to take a stab at estimating how late a 200 runner event would finish?
I"m going out to buy some noodles, I want this discussed in depth before I return. Say fifteen minutes. Maybe 20 as I don"t know where my shoes are.
23 20000 / 40000 4000
24 25000 / 50000 4000
25 30000 / 60000 5000
Depending on the level where the finish occurred there was somewhere between 25 and 39 BBs in play. An additional 60 runners (allowing for more alternates) would add 10-15 BBs to the total. Would say this is equivalent to 1-2 levels of play before bringing the total BBs in play to the same kind of figure.
Just because I"m bored - if we assume that we double the number of runners (or starting stacks FWIW, and then assume the BB would be double also when the final hand is dealt) then this would only add 3 levels before the tournament reaches the same depth level.
So number of players or total chips in play actually has little effect on finish time.
I liked the structure and didn"t feel there were as many choke points as before - generally felt looser. I think Tighty stole it from me though after a post I made on the S5 discussion - can I claim commission? ;)
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New ante structure was perfect. I had been banging on about our antes for around 1 year now, always knew it would work.
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I thought the new structure was perfect :D
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What antes?
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I thought the structure was fine with loads of opportunity to play poker (see some flops) in the early levels.
I tweeted this after losing a flip and doubling a short stack @ 12.27 am
Down to 15k, av is 40k blinds will be 600/1200 v soon.
We started at 2.30pm so I have to say I feel I had a decent bang for my buck if it was 10 hours later (ignoring breaks) before I"m in shove/fold mode.
I also thought that the final table started and ended at a sociable hour.
ps. Update thread is locked so;
Wanted to thank all concerned for organising the event and a great job with the updating/commentating I appreciate how tough that is.
Also congratulations to those who made the final table well done all.
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I had already commented on this on the update thread...
"Ref. the new structure.
Don"t know what everyone else thought, but for me (and I think I speak for Paul McGuinness) I thought it was way too fast."
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Thought the new structure was ok, as said you had to change the way you play a bit
apat wanted to get down to the money on the 1st day but I don"t see how this is gonna happen as with a late finish there were still 20 left
Only gripe is that coming back for day 2 and all the cost that may entail and not cash is a bit much
As said at the time any alternates payments would have been a bonus for the 5 who were unlucky to go out before the money, I know its not much but if you have to get a hotel etc it helps a bit !!
Other than that little gripe , coventry was a good weekend
well done again to all at apat and the casino/888 etc
on to the next one ;) ;) ;)
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Thought the new structure was ok, as said you had to change the way you play a bit
apat wanted to get down to the money on the 1st day but I don"t see how this is gonna happen as with a late finish there were still 20 left
Only gripe is that coming back for day 2 and all the cost that may entail and not cash is a bit much
As said at the time any alternates payments would have been a bonus for the 5 who were unlucky to go out before the money, I know its not much but if you have to get a hotel etc it helps a bit !!
Other than that little gripe , coventry was a good weekend
well done again to all at apat and the casino/888 etc
on to the next one ;) ;) ;)
+1
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....
As said at the time any alternates payments would have been a bonus for the 5 who were unlucky to go out before the money, I know its not much but if you have to get a hotel etc it helps a bit !!
+1
-1
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Its very hard to get a great structure and get everyone on day2 paid. From the sounds of things, this season is close to pefect. Theres always going to be disagreements about certain aspects, but good job APAT for bringing the structure and payouts to a very high level.
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... you would have got there with 40 min levels ...
I await being shoed to death for making such a comment ...
L
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... you would have got there with 40 min levels ...
I await being shoed to death for making such a comment ...
L
This would create the time to play an extra level, and we would get to each level a little bit earlier, but we wouldn"t get anymore hands played in the time.
Is this statement correct ? I think it is, so how much difference would it make to getting to the money ?
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Structure was absolutely fine though the card-dead runs can be a little painful. That"s live poker though!
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... you would have got there with 40 min levels ...
I await being shoed to death for making such a comment ...
L
This would create the time to play an extra level, and we would get to each level a little bit earlier, but we wouldn"t get anymore hands played in the time.
Is this statement correct ? I think it is, so how much difference would it make to getting to the money ?
Perhaps with the blinds going up that one level extra on day 1 you"d have lost a lot of shorties on Saturday night instead of beginning of Sunday? Not sure if that"s correct either.
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... you would have got there with 40 min levels ...
I await being shoed to death for making such a comment ...
L
This would create the time to play an extra level, and we would get to each level a little bit earlier, but we wouldn"t get anymore hands played in the time.
Is this statement correct ? I think it is, so how much difference would it make to getting to the money ?
I think you need to have the scope to play until the money is reached ... if that is not possible then there will always be people staying alive for day 2 to shove J9s into KK etc ...
It"s the blinds relative to chips that matters not the number of hands played in a day ... (but speedier play would be good too).
L
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I felt comfortable that IF we could have played another level (and that"s a big if) then we would have reached the money BUT there were a number of additional reasons why we couldn"t play to the money at Coventry including dealer rostering and availability PLUS the clocks going forward.
However, and I realise that I may be in the minority, but I enter knowing that playing to the money is an AIM, not a target and plan my time and hotels accordingly.
Yes, it"s a pain to make Day 2 and not cash...I did (and didn"t if you see what I mean). No hard feelings on my part.
Of course, I binked the PLO to make up for it.
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Has there ever been a time when making day 2 meant you had cashed? I don"t get the argument about stumping up for hotels. You make those decisions weeks in advance of the event no?
Who cares about the money anyway, it"s the social side of things that matters so the more people still around for day 2 the better surely. ;)
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Has there ever been a time when making day 2 meant you had cashed? I don"t get the argument about stumping up for hotels. You make those decisions weeks in advance of the event no?
Who cares about the money anyway, it"s the social side of things that matters so the more people still around for day 2 the better surely. ;)
Regarding the first part I get what you mean but I don"t agree If I didn"t make day 2 in Coventry I was not going to stay in a hotel.
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Structure was absolutely fine though the card-dead runs can be a little painful. That"s live poker though!
+1
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Has there ever been a time when making day 2 meant you had cashed? I don"t get the argument about stumping up for hotels. You make those decisions weeks in advance of the event no?
Who cares about the money anyway, it"s the social side of things that matters so the more people still around for day 2 the better surely. ;)
Regarding the first part I get what you mean but I don"t agree If I didn"t make day 2 in Coventry I was not going to stay in a hotel.
Think we"re talking at cross purposes. I thought you were saying your hotel plans for the second night were dependent on you cashing.
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At 2.32pm -
Paul Davis shoves his 35k stack. Chipleader Michael Richards makes the call.
Paul QJ, Michael AK.
The AK is good, and Paulie D exits in 20th place.
At 2.34pm -
David Griffiths [Morgan? 30k"ish] shoves with KJ and gets a caller in Mike Wilson with pocket fives.
The fives are good, and David exits in 19th
At 2.37pm -
John Miller [28k"ish] shoves with 9 6, Tod Wood calls with A5.
Board of A 2 4 A T
And John Miller exits in 18th
At 2.39pm -
Daniel Weaver [16k"ish] is allin against Paul Williams and in good shape.
A9 v K9
But a king on the flop, means Daniel exits in 17th place.
I don"t wish to be critical of anyone"s play... but, if any of these first four out, withinh the first 10mins, on Sunday afternoon, were really bothered about returning for day 2 and not getting paid... then surely they could have found equally as good spots as these to get there chips in during the last level of day 1??
Why nurse a stack, with an M of 5 or less, into day 2 just to push it in in the first couple of hands?
This would seem to prove to me that making day 2 of a 2-day touranment was more important than actually getting into the money.
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At 2.32pm -
Paul Davis shoves his 35k stack. Chipleader Michael Richards makes the call.
Paul QJ, Michael AK.
The AK is good, and Paulie D exits in 20th place.
I don"t wish to be critical of anyone"s play... but, if any of these first four out, withinh the first 10mins, on Sunday afternoon, were really bothered about returning for day 2 and not getting paid... then surely they could have found equally as good spots as these to get there chips in during the last level of day 1??
Why nurse a stack, with an M of 5 or less, into day 2 just to push it in in the first couple of hands?
This would seem to prove to me that making day 2 of a 2-day touranment was more important than actually getting into the money.
I wasn"t and never am bothered about coming back on Day 2 and not cashing...been there done that more than once.
Could I have found a spot to shove with 63o at the final level...sure, but we were playing short handed for a while and two went out right at the end as I recall. I didn"t find a hand I felt comfortable with shoving with in the last level although I made a few raises that weren"t called.
So basically Alan is right...making Day 2 was more important than cashing but you had to make Day 2 to cash...on this occasion.
You are the only one of those 4 that I actually know, and obviously I knew that you were staying anyway... as I said the point was not critique play, purely to highlight that none of those 4 appear to be too bothered about returning for potentially zero cash.
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I think aiming to play day 1 up to the money is a good thing but it shouldn"t be the most important consideration.
If it happens that you are unable to get to the money spots at the end of day 1, then that"s just too bad. It was never a problem in the first 4 seasons.
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you should never just play up until the money , it should be whenever is best for the structure of the tournament, whenever the money bubble is should be irrelavant in my opinion.
If you come to apat event you should stay that night and enjoy social aspects of an apat event, if you make day 2 bonus!
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you should never just play up until the money , it should be whenever is best for the structure of the tournament, whenever the money bubble is should be irrelavant in my opinion.
If you come to apat event you should stay that night and enjoy social aspects of an apat event, if you make day 2 bonus!
Bit of a catch-all statement Steve... not everyone can afford to stay over, and would choose to drive home.... coming back for day two is additional expense, offset by getting paid.
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you should never just play up until the money , it should be whenever is best for the structure of the tournament, whenever the money bubble is should be irrelavant in my opinion.
If you come to apat event you should stay that night and enjoy social aspects of an apat event, if you make day 2 bonus!
Bit of a catch-all statement Steve... not everyone can afford to stay over, and would choose to drive home.... coming back for day two is additional expense, offset by getting paid.
Do people really leave the decision to stay in a hotel till they know if they are through to day 2?
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It"s pretty horrendous bankroll management if people are relying on cashing to pay for the hotel to stay in for day 2.
I suspect it"s a lot more likely that nearly all, if not all, of the people who decide whether or not to stay do so based on whether they fancy socialising or prefer to just go home - i.e. it"s just personal preference.
It"s a good aim to get everybody to the money on day 1, but as a group people are going to tighten up as day 2 approaches - the only way to guarantee that everybody made the money is to have open ended finish times (which isn"t possible), or to fiddle with the structure so much that it gets ruined.
It"ll be interesting to see how it plays with more runners and without the clocks going forward, but every indication is that this is the best APAT structure so far ;D
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It"s pretty horrendous bankroll management if people are relying on cashing to pay for the hotel to stay in for day 2.
Don"t think I said that. If the casino is in driving distance - say less than 80 miles - there are occasions where I will opt to drive home rather than incur hotel and all associated expense. There are others that do the same..... driving back for day two is nice when you collect some payout to pay for the petrol.
That said, I love staying over on these weekends, and of course will be doing so for Newcastle..... but generally, with huge family expense, poker is a hobby and I need to keep costs down where I can. Sure I"m not the only one.
Kind of getting away from the topic of the thread though.... haven"t played it yet, but the new structure looks bang on.
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Sleeping bag in the boot! Back seat FTW !! Or not as is usually the case!! :)
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With regards to this tournament was there more scope to play on day 1 in terms of dealers etc ...
4 out in first 9 mins of day 2 seems crazy to me.
By observation the structure works well in terms of plenty of play at the final table.
My take would be establish the latest you can play to and then play to that or play to the money - this might have been the case in Coventry.
If the structure implies playing to the money or being absurdly shortly then there will be a more natural (attacking) game towards the end of day 1.
If there were just a few players no getting paid on day 2 - I would give them a £75 prize to cover petrol/hotel/drink.
L
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It"s pretty horrendous bankroll management if people are relying on cashing to pay for the hotel to stay in for day 2.
Don"t think I said that. ..
My definition of "... can"t afford..." is to not have the money to, obviously if you want to have some new fangled definition involving whether it"s sensible to or not that"s up to you :D
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With regards to this tournament was there more scope to play on day 1 in terms of dealers etc ...
4 out in first 9 mins of day 2 seems crazy to me.
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If you had an extra 9 minutes on day 1 you wouldn"t have had 4 out even if they"d been dealt exactly the same cards, you might have got 4 out with an extra level but I doubt much more.
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Dealers were not available after 2am...it happens.
In my case, my stack was such that I was going to have to double up or better as soon as I possibly could....that means having to take some risks....I would assume that the others felt the same.
The structure demanded it...as did my stack.
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They were at the cash tables, but only 3 games going as it happens.
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First-would like to say as beforestructure was pretty good but as I said earlier i think any alternates money should go to the players over the usual 10% that-get paid which would have given the 5 a little cash
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Dont really agree with this, its like stealing money from the players who finish in top 10%
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Bit of a catch-all statement Steve... not everyone can afford to stay over, and would choose to drive home.... coming back for day two is additional expense, offset by getting paid.
Bit of a catch-all statement Steve... not everyone is lucky enough to live within driving distance of several of the tournaments.
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First-would like to say as beforestructure was pretty good but as I said earlier i think any alternates money should go to the players over the usual 10% that-get paid which would have given the 5 a little cash
I deliberately chose to add the prize money from the 6 alternates (£450) to the existing places paid
Why? I think its accepted and best practice in the industry, and our old method of applying an extra place for each alternate was eccentric to say the elast
I don"t anticipate the policy changing
APAT is looking to provide festival type experiences for low buy ins. With that comes festival practices, comparable and hopefully better organisational standards and not (as per playing for the win) hanging on for £75 for 21st or something
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The new payouts should stay. Playing to the money is desirable however we all know when we sign up (well you guys do anyway) that it"s a two day event and that could mean paying extra costs to play.
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First-would like to say as beforestructure was pretty good but as I said earlier i think any alternates money should go to the players over the usual 10% that-get paid which would have given the 5 a little cash
I deliberately chose to add the prize money from the 6 alternates (£450) to the existing places paid
APAT is looking to provide festival type experiences for low buy ins. With that comes festival practices, comparable and hopefully better organisational standards and not (as per playing for the win) hanging on for £75 for 21st or something
Keep the money to the top 10 per cent.
The fact that four players went out quickly on day 2 at least showed they werent trying to limp into the bottom money.
2 players went out in the final hand of day 1 and the table dynamics were completely different at end of day 1 compared to start of day 2. Day 1 end was short handed and all in shoves were generally getting through. Day 2 start was 10 handed.
I too was all in in the first few minutes of day 2, admittedly a reraise all in after the flop, but with only middle pair. £3700 for first or £176 for 15th, No brainer which place to play for.
As for booking hotels for day 2 . Lets see, slept in my car once (and ended up at the local car boot at 6am!), cadged a room once and in season 1 thanks to Lee Mulligan managed to get a bed in the transit accommodation at the local army camp!! All part of the apat experience!!
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All we can ask is that an attempt is made to play down to the money,without spoiling the tournament totally.
Personally,if shortstacked i would rather shove on day 1 with any 2 than come back knowing i have to go all in in first ten minutes with no guarantee of a cash.Not saying anyone else should have this attitude,,just me lol
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All we can ask is that an attempt is made to play down to the money,without spoiling the tournament totally.
...and that"s it.
I think that the new structure moves more towards this.
Discussion of payouts and people end of Day 1 preferences for shoving, hotel rooms etc. are irrelevant as they are the same under both structures.
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If you are worried about the expense of a hotel then do not sign up to play imo
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Dont really think thats fair to say. Some people sat into these events like i did, because im broke cant afford £50 a night in hotel. Doesnt affect the way i play though, and i think the structure was brilliant for £75 buyin tourny.
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Dont really think thats fair to say. Some people sat into these events like i did, because im broke cant afford £50 a night in hotel. Doesnt affect the way i play though, and i think the structure was brilliant for £75 buyin tourny.
But really should you be trying to qualify for an event if you can"t afford to either get to it, or stay in the region for it"s duration? The buy-in is only a part of the expense of playing poker isn"t it. If you don"t have the money to either buy-in to an event or cover the peripheral expenses then really you should be waiting for a time when you can.
In a nutshell it"s not for the tour to work it"s way round individual"s budgets, it"s for the individual to work their budgets around the expense of the tour.
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So how did we get to this? though we were discussing the structure and how much better it is.
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So how did we get to this? though we were discussing the structure and how much better it is.
Because people were suggesting adjusting the structure so everyone who makes day 2 cashes and so helping with hotel petrol expenses etc.
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So how did we get to this? though we were discussing the structure and how much better it is.
Because people were suggesting adjusting the structure so everyone who makes day 2 cashes and so helping with hotel petrol expenses etc.
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I think all that people are saying is IF the money is reached at the end of day 1,those still in will have some extra cash toward the expense of staying another night,,something a lot wont need who have already gone home,,,yes,i know some will have booked the 2 nights already but would guess most will not have.
As i said earlier all we can ask is that an attempt is made to reach the money without spoiling the tournament.
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It will not happen, especially in the tournys with 200 + runners. The structure is a huge improvment on last year, and no need to spoil it just to get in the money on day 1.
Only way this can be done without spoiling the structure, is to start 1 hour early ( casinos wont have this) or take away the 1hr lunch break (players wont like this)
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It will not happen, especially in the tournys with 200 + runners. The structure is a huge improvment on last year, and no need to spoil it just to get in the money on day 1.
Only way this can be done without spoiling the structure, is to start 1 hour early ( casinos wont have this) or take away the 1hr lunch break (players wont like this)
dont remember there being many 200 plus
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I think we can lose the dinner break and just have another 15 min break instead. That will save a few minutes. With no buffet, players can just order food from the valets. Would be interesting to see how the kitchen would cope with this though.
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I think we can lose the dinner break and just have another 15 min break instead. That will save a few minutes. With no buffet, players can just order food from the valets. Would be interesting to see how the kitchen would cope with this though.
I"d rather have longer to get normal priced food then be forced to pay for casino food - especially for some of the venues where the quality isn"t that great.
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I thought the new structure was perfect :D
+1 ;)
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Think dinner should be 40 mins not a full hour. Still gives you plenty of time to find somewhere nearby and eat (not that I made dinner but had to spend 60 mins with Shelley instead of 40)
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Think dinner should be 40 mins not a full hour. Still gives you plenty of time to find somewhere nearby and eat (not that I made dinner but had to spend 60 mins with Shelley instead of 40)
Trying to have one of those no sex modern day marriages eh
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Think dinner should be 40 mins not a full hour. Still gives you plenty of time to find somewhere nearby and eat (not that I made dinner but had to spend 60 mins with Shelley instead of 40)
In the big field APAT events (200 runners), I believe that the objective is that the dinner break is 45 minutes as this enables APAT to stagger the break over a level.
Half play on for a level while the other half eats....when the 45 minutes is over, they swap.
Simples.
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It will not happen, especially in the tournys with 200 + runners. The structure is a huge improvment on last year, and no need to spoil it just to get in the money on day 1.
Only way this can be done without spoiling the structure, is to start 1 hour early ( casinos wont have this) or take away the 1hr lunch break (players wont like this)
... taking the dinner break away would reduced the chance of being poisoned by Scottish pies ...
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Think dinner should be 40 mins not a full hour. Still gives you plenty of time to find somewhere nearby and eat (not that I made dinner but had to spend 60 mins with Shelley instead of 40)
Trying to have one of those no sex modern day marriages eh
Modern? We"re married. OFC we don"t have sex.
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I think it is a much improved structure. Antes kicking in suites me as alot of players are way too tight and don"t adjust.
There is still plenty of play overall. Great tournaments for a £75 buy in, well done APAT.
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you should never just play up until the money , it should be whenever is best for the structure of the tournament, whenever the money bubble is should be irrelavant in my opinion.
If you come to apat event you should stay that night and enjoy social aspects of an apat event, if you make day 2 bonus!
Bit of a catch-all statement Steve... not everyone can afford to stay over, and would choose to drive home.... coming back for day two is additional expense, offset by getting paid.
Do people really leave the decision to stay in a hotel till they know if they are through to day 2?
Yes.
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I think it is a much improved structure. Antes kicking in suites me as alot of players are way too tight and don"t adjust.
There is still plenty of play overall. Great tournaments for a £75 buy in, well done APAT.
^^^^^^^ this^^^^^^^ antes are yummy