Amateur Poker Association & Tour
Poker Forum => Strategy => Topic started by: Sillbags on June 04, 2011, 17:57:57 PM
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We had only played 1 or 2 orbits and Dan had been pretty active opening pots as expected. Stacks were 9k effective (think Dan had me covered by 2k). Blinds 25/50, Folds to Dan on the button and he makes it 125, SB 3bets to 450 (1st 3bet from this guy). I have jc jd in the BB and briefly consider a 4bet to iso the SB, whom I have position on, but don"t want to face a 5bet from either player so I elect to flat for pot control. Back to Dan, who now 4bets to 1200. SB folds. I flat the 1200 (not loving this situation tbh). Flop 9d 8s 4c, I check-call Dan"s c-bet of 1650. Turn 9h. I check and Dan fires 3300 and I tank fold :-\ Didn"t think that there were many, if any bluffs in his range at this point as he has now committed over half his stack and I was likely facing a river shove, and lets not forget he did 4bet pre. I am only really beating 10"s at this point, but didn"t think he would 4bet pre with 10"s. What do you guys think?
oh, and I might have got the rag card slightly wrong, but doesn"t change anything ;)
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4-2o FTW - wp Dan
tough one this
flatting a 3 bet with the original raiser to act (who has position on you) seems wrong but the cheap option
folding seems wrong (you have JJ)- but at this early stage, it may be the most conservative play.
4 betting seems best given Dan"s image, but 4 bet folding seems so spewy.
I think I flat the SBs 3 bet but fold to Dan"s 4 bet pre (he does get dealt good hands as well - you know)
As played, I do what you do because I don"t want to go broke with a pair
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If I"m remembering the right hand, it was me in the SB that 3-bet... I had AK, and with the flat from the BB and the 4-bet from Dan, I figured AK was in bad shape. I suspect JJ was also in bad shape.
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That must have been a different hand Steve, this was just button vs blinds, you had already passed. I was the guy who got gifted 12k when a woman 3bet shoved for 60bb with :as: qh ;D
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That must have been a different hand Steve, this was just button vs blinds, you had already passed. I was the guy who got gifted 12k when a woman 3bet shoved for 60bb with :as: qh ;D
Don"t know whose jaw dropped open the most on our table at that point ;D
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To be honest Dan put most people in a tricky spot early in Cardiff and it had feck all to do with poker.
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That must have been a different hand Steve, this was just button vs blinds, you had already passed. I was the guy who got gifted 12k when a woman 3bet shoved for 60bb with :as: qh ;D
ahh mistaken identity.
And that AQ shove was the most strange and surreal moment of the whole weekend.
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there was a collective look of disbelief from everyone at the table.
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i actually dont think folding JJ pre to the 3bet is that bad of a decision tbh i know its jacks but i mean its going to be thin whether you are going to show that much of a profit, and at this stage of the tournament its a bit thin its worthwhile. As for the 4bet i dont think would ever flat, i would shove if i think Dan is capable of being light here which from personal experience i know he is (lol) I think your underestimating how how it is going to be to play JJ oop vs a competent (plz dont show dan this comment ) good aggro player. Your going to be facing an overcard so often and playing the guessing game oop (not a good time) Once you get this flop how you dont check shove is beyond me if your not going with it on this flop then for the love of god dont flat the 4ball pre! It gets worse too, the turn is pretty much a nut card minus a jack and you check fold?!?! If you thought your hand is good on the flop its still good! but see below !
****** Now this check fold can either be really good or really bad, it totally depends what level you think dan is on and even more importantly what level you think he thinks your on. If he gives you a ton of credit for being able to read hands well and make good call downs then the check fold is ok, if neither of these are true you should get it in because hes going to piling on the pressure (no1 really wants to travel all this way and bust first hand right?) *****
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Interesting points Ben, although I"m not sure I like folding to the 3bet pre vs a likely button steal and a possible light 3bet. Having said that, my other options don"t seem vary appealing either; how about if I were to cold 4bet small to say 1075? Obv folding to a 5bet would be turning effectively turning my hand into a bluff, I think I"m ahead of their ranges at this point, but pretty crushed by a 5bet vs my cold 4betting range. I guess what I"m saying is, is it ever ok to 4bet for value intending to fold to a 5bet?
As played shoving 200bbs pre over a 4bet with JJ seems a little spewy to me, so I guess folding to the 4bet is best.
I"m pretty sure that dan just took me as a random, as we"d never played before, which imo makes the turn more tricky as he would never expect a random to fold an overpair at this point. He"s obv cbetting the flop 100% of the time imo, so would he really fire 2nd and likely 3rd barrel with bluffs that he could 4bet pre with, like AK after me calling on the flop and the turn really changing nothing. Like you said, the turn is a great card for my hand, and dan must know this is likely a great card for my range, so would expect him to shut down with hands like AK as firing a 2nd barrel would be such a large % of his stack, and would prob be committed to follow through on the river.
Fwiw, I like check shoving the turn, but would be lying if I said that the fear of busting that early didnt at least contribute a small part towards my decision making :-[
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I"d probably cold 4 given positions at the table or fold if I wasn"t comfortable, our relative position in the hand is terrible to just flat the 3 bet and I think this is the worst option pre. His 4 bet sizing is quite curious with the 3 bettor left to act but don"t know Dan well enough to know whether he has weak hands in his 4 betting range. Once I call the 4 bet and the flop I aren"t folding.
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Probably playing 6-3 o/s which I believe is one of his favourite hands
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I dont think anyone is really restealing at 25/50, you obviously get a few but you said the Sb was quite tight and hadn"t seen him 3bet once, He may only be 3betting JJ+ +AK +AQ [maybe not aq and jj]. Youv"e got 200bb"s i think i fold pre and fold to 4bet as playe, even if it is that fish.
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I"d probably cold 4 given positions at the table or fold if I wasn"t comfortable, our relative position in the hand is terrible to just flat the 3 bet and I think this is the worst option pre. His 4 bet sizing is quite curious with the 3 bettor left to act but don"t know Dan well enough to know whether he has weak hands in his 4 betting range. Once I call the 4 bet and the flop I aren"t folding.
Scrap what I said, thought we were only 60bb deep, fold pre is best
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the Sb was quite tight and hadn"t seen him 3bet once, He may only be 3betting JJ+ +AK +AQ [maybe not aq and jj].
It was Steve Redfern in the SB, 3 betting Dan"s button raise. I"d say both of there ranges include a lot lower hands than "JJ+ +AK +AQ". Although the original poster may not know them!
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And it has only been 2 orbits, so you cant say that the SB has been tight when he has only been delt 10 hands. You also say that people are not going to be re-stealing light early on. This is BS because its early on when you need to firure who will fold to 3 bets etc, so you can pick on these people during the middle stadges.
Good agressive players will play agressive from the start (even more so if they know that there table will be one of the first to break) if they get it wrong or make a mistake, it may only cost them 20% of stack as opposed to 100% on a later level.
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I would prob have 4 bet pre flop (or maybe fold, never flat) against Dan or player like dan. And if 5 bet then would have tanked and tried to get read and go with gut whether to jam or fold.
And if decide to check call on flop you bleeding chips , an aggro player is likely not to fire again.
I discussed this with Dan and said that is what i would do before he told me his hand which i wont say on here but sure if he wants you to know he will post. But to be fair it is irrelavant because next time sure it would be different hands.
Anyway tough decision, which we all love in poker , well the sickos do.
Great when you get em right but horrible when wrong.
I still get **** for folding QQ pre to dave rudders before i knew who he was lol .
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the Sb was quite tight and hadn"t seen him 3bet once, He may only be 3betting JJ+ +AK +AQ [maybe not aq and jj].
It was Steve Redfern in the SB, 3 betting Dan"s button raise. I"d say both of there ranges include a lot lower hands than "JJ+ +AK +AQ". Although the original poster may not know them!
The guy to Dan"s left was SB, I was BB
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-fFw4RS32NSs/TeEC0kMbzeI/AAAAAAAAqbE/K5atLmdTrEs/IMG_7244.JPG)
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the Sb was quite tight and hadn"t seen him 3bet once, He may only be 3betting JJ+ +AK +AQ [maybe not aq and jj].
It was Steve Redfern in the SB, 3 betting Dan"s button raise. I"d say both of there ranges include a lot lower hands than "JJ+ +AK +AQ". Although the original poster may not know them!
It wasn"t me on this occasion, although I do seem to remember a few 3-bets from the blinds in both directions between myself and Dan. Was fun.
In the hand in question, I hate the call out of position. Furthermore, once you have called, check/folding on a 9 hi board is just weak. When you called, what sort of flop were you hoping for (other than JJx obviously)? With the 3 and 4 bets, I"m not sure that you were really getting the right odds to call and set-mine... and you had to know that Dan would be c-betting 100%. You check/call the flop c-bet, and I guess at this point you"re hoping for a cheap showdown - hence giving up when he c-bets the turn..... In this spot, oop with a medium strength hand, against an aggro player, you"re preflop action determines the entire course of the hand - your preflop flat call was weak, and you ending up losing a lump of chips unnecessarily. Shove or fold pre (fold>>>shove in this particular situation imo)
If I was in that spot, I may be tempted to play back at Dan"s aggro image and shove pre..... however I would then be thinking that he knows he has that image, and could be setting up to call a shove here. but then I might think that he thinks that I think he is playing his aggro image...... oh feck it, just fold pre..... there are much better spots than this to get involved, and with 200x there"s plenty of time.
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the guy to dans left was Moi and yes that day I did play fairly tight (tho did chuck in a few uncalled bluffs) especially on the first 3-4 levels . It was my first APAT tournament and was trying to get a feel for the table which from the info I got from Mr Shallis and Roderick was a fairly tough table.
I had a fairly good grasp on Dans style of play as well as the guy in the pink shirt but was just trying to play patient and use my tight image to steal a few pots every now and then.
BTW if i recall correctly I had AQ suited on the had in question and the flop missed the suits , but do recall thinking that against one player I may still be ahead but with a potential of 2 people I really lhad to think at least one of them had a PP or AK/AQ or AJ
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the Sb was quite tight and hadn"t seen him 3bet once, He may only be 3betting JJ+ +AK +AQ [maybe not aq and jj].
It was Steve Redfern in the SB, 3 betting Dan"s button raise. I"d say both of there ranges include a lot lower hands than "JJ+ +AK +AQ". Although the original poster may not know them!
It wasn"t me on this occasion, although I do seem to remember a few 3-bets from the blinds in both directions between myself and Dan. Was fun.
Ahh, it"s when you said "it was me in the SB that 3-bet" i got confused!
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and could be setting up to call a shove here. but then I might think that he thinks that I think he is playing his aggro image......
Yes, but what were you ..................thinking
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and could be setting up to call a shove here. but then I might think that he thinks that I think he is playing his aggro image......
Yes, but what were you ..................thinking
That"s over-rated Foggy :)
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I can count to Potatoe
the Sb was quite tight and hadn"t seen him 3bet once, He may only be 3betting JJ+ +AK +AQ [maybe not aq and jj].
It was Steve Redfern in the SB, 3 betting Dan"s button raise. I"d say both of there ranges include a lot lower hands than "JJ+ +AK +AQ". Although the original poster may not know them!
It wasn"t me on this occasion, although I do seem to remember a few 3-bets from the blinds in both directions between myself and Dan. Was fun.
In the hand in question, I hate the call out of position. Furthermore, once you have called, check/folding on a 9 hi board is just weak. When you called, what sort of flop were you hoping for (other than JJx obviously)? With the 3 and 4 bets, I"m not sure that you were really getting the right odds to call and set-mine... and you had to know that Dan would be c-betting 100%. You check/call the flop c-bet, and I guess at this point you"re hoping for a cheap showdown - hence giving up when he c-bets the turn..... In this spot, oop with a medium strength hand, against an aggro player, you"re preflop action determines the entire course of the hand - your preflop flat call was weak, and you ending up losing a lump of chips unnecessarily. Shove or fold pre (fold>>>shove in this particular situation imo)
If I was in that spot, I may be tempted to play back at Dan"s aggro image and shove pre..... however I would then be thinking that he knows he has that image, and could be setting up to call a shove here. but then I might think that he thinks that I think he is playing his aggro image...... oh feck it, just fold pre..... there are much better spots than this to get involved, and with 200x there"s plenty of time.
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PS. JJ here vs me is as good as being dealt Quads Pre. That is all.
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PS. JJ here vs me is as good as being dealt Quads Pre. That is all.
LOL. Best reply ever. Cheers Dan. Made my day. ;D
So, was it 6-3 off, or were they suited?
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I still get **** for folding QQ pre to dave rudders before i knew who he was lol .
It"s alright i folded kd qd on a
kh 5s :2d: td 9d
i bet 1/3rd on turn
1/2 on river and got re raised by a compitent but rocky player only to be shown ad qh forgot to think about starting hands im only losing to ad1 jd but still might of found a fold,people almost fell out of there chairs when i showed my hand rofl
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sorry for hijack hehe ;) pretty sure dan was ahead of jj no matter what he says and its still hard spot as played
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sorry for hijack hehe ;) pretty sure dan was ahead of jj no matter what he says and its still hard spot as played
Having seen some of the significant laydowns Dan made that day, I"m 100% positive he was ahead of JJ in this spot
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sorry for hijack hehe ;) pretty sure dan was ahead of jj no matter what he says and its still hard spot as played
Having seen some of the significant laydowns Dan made that day, I"m 100% positive he was ahead of JJ in this spot
I will take that bet !
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sorry for hijack hehe ;) pretty sure dan was ahead of jj no matter what he says and its still hard spot as played
Having seen some of the significant laydowns Dan made that day, I"m 100% positive he was ahead of JJ in this spot
I will take that bet !
LOL. Given Scouse knows what Dan had, i"ll take that bet too. :)
There"s a big difference to making big laydowns and preying on perceived weakness which is what i think he did.
The way i see it is he bet out, your 3-bet could well be light, especially as he"s on the button. The other guy then just flats. If he now 4-bets it looks very strong. Doesn"t necessarily have to be but he can pick up a very nice pot.