Amateur Poker Association & Tour
Poker Forum => Strategy => Topic started by: Santino67 on September 08, 2011, 09:47:49 AM
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What To Do?
You"re in a MTT with around your 2k starting stack, not much happening so far.....then a new player joins the table with over 6k halfway through level 2 and starts open raising or 3 betting every hand, initially taking down pots uncontested, but eventually running into opponents without slowing down.
You watch him/her through next 10 minutes 3/4/5 betting and happy to shove/call all ins with hands like J/5 v A/K and Q/Q (binks a straight), Q/7 v 7/7 (Binks a bigger F/H) and Q/3 suited v 10/10 (Binks a flush). By middle of level 4 he"s up to 20k chips while you haven"t really been involved due to cards and situation. You pick up A/Q suited and open raise to 280 with villain re-popping to 750..........what do you do?
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fold
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shove
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shove
no expert , but +1
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fold
You"re obviously a really good and experienced player George so I"d love to hear your reasoning here.
I obv went for the shove, my reasoning is that this guy"s range is any 2, it"s a great spot for me to double up as he"s a definite caller to my shove and pretty sure I"m a favourite (possibly even dominating). In addition if I fold I"ll then be sitting either waiting for bigger than AQ to try again or hoping that this guy or myself move table before blinds start chewing my chips up. I"d definitely have folded if I didn"t have the information about him, or if he"d been making these moves in occasional different spots and not facing many showdowns, but it was literally every hand.
Cheers
Grant
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Interested to hear George"s reason for folding here.
My reason for shove..... assuming the BB is 100, and you"re still around your 2k stack, raise/folding from a stack of 20x is usually pretty poor.... and against a maniac who"s range is ATC, is way too weak and spewy.
Assuming his range is as tight as 50% of starting hands.... you are a 62/38 favourite if he calls and gets to showdown. I would never pass up this edge in this spot.
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Couldn"t get my ch?ps ?n fast enough.
Obv?ously a lucky bully ...............Get em IN
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Interested to hear George"s reason for folding here.
My reason for shove..... assuming the BB is 100, and you"re still around your 2k stack, raise/folding from a stack of 20x is usually pretty poor.... and against a maniac who"s range is ATC, is way too weak and spewy.
Assuming his range is as tight as 50% of starting hands.... you are a 62/38 favourite if he calls and gets to showdown. I would never pass up this edge in this spot.
+1 and yeah I was on just about 2k with blinds 50/100. Thought about waiting for a better spot but would be too reliant on either of us moving table or me picking up a better hand. This has to be the single most relentless player I"ve ever faced, possibly even alcohol fuelled I"d argue. There was just no reasoning or thought process involved in any individual hand he played, just insta raise, insta shove & insta call. And yeah he donked me with J6os, but I"m still keen to know thoughts from other players. Wondering if call/stop n go would be an option worth considering as well.
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Versus villains range as described, never folding. If as I suspect you found the top of his range UL GG Sigh!
Still the correct play versus his range.
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fold
Too often I see you making one word replies George and tbh, it"s disappointing from a player of your calibre. You have so much more you can offer. :(
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Versus villains range as described, never folding. If as I suspect you found the top of his range UL GG Sigh!
Still the correct play versus his range.
Cheers for the reply....
And yeah he donked me with J6os, but I"m still keen to know thoughts from other players. Wondering if call/stop n go would be an option worth considering as well.
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shove
every time.... range is so wide your never folding AQ
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This has to be the single most relentless player I"ve ever faced, possibly even alcohol fuelled I"d argue. There was just no reasoning or thought process involved in any individual hand he played, just insta raise, insta shove & insta call.
Aye one of my better nights........
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This has to be the single most relentless player I"ve ever faced, possibly even alcohol fuelled I"d argue. There was just no reasoning or thought process involved in any individual hand he played, just insta raise, insta shove & insta call.
Aye one of my better nights........
:D :D :D
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Next situation............
Agaian, keen to know your thinking, FYI - Spicall has been caught in a couple of pots against preflop raisers so got short stacked, hazydays has been a bit of a calling station since i sat at table about half hour ago.
Seat 1: Mentalisti (9420)
Seat 2: lamelona (14525)
Seat 3: clubbersuk (2550)
Seat 4: spicaIII (1610)
Seat 5: hazydays01 (4220)
Seat 6: teruka23 (5380)
Seat 7: Santino1967 (9335)
Seat 8: TUZANJON (2500)
Seat 10: Endeavoor (3780)
teruka23 posts small blind (100)
Santino1967 posts big blind (200)
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Dealing pocket cards
Dealing to Santino1967: [Qd, Ac]
TUZANJON folds
Endeavoor folds
Mentalisti folds
lamelona folds
clubbersuk folds
spicaIII raises 600 to 600
hazydays01 calls 600
teruka23 folds
Santino1967.....................? ? ?
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Probably a level from George.
I"d struggle to fold AQ vs a nit with 20 bigs so raise folding a hand this strong vs a maniac would be bad
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Sit 2 is 20 bigs effective or less with dead money, easy 3b/call or jam
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Sit 2 is 20 bigs effective or less with dead money, easy 3b/call or jam
Which option do you chose Dean?
1/ Call and see flop OOP?
2/ 3b fully commits short stack if they go in (high probability with pot size) and may get calling station pot stuck?
3/ Jam, hope to isolate short stack and risk possibly committing calling station?
What"s your thinking?
Cheers
Grant
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Don"t call or fold. Best bet is probably a jam, a standard 3 bet will allow the coldcaller to flat your 3bet too often, especially if the shorty jams, which probably overcomplicates.
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Next situation............
Agaian, keen to know your thinking, FYI - Spicall has been caught in a couple of pots against preflop raisers so got short stacked, hazydays has been a bit of a calling station since i sat at table about half hour ago.
Seat 1: Mentalisti (9420)
Seat 2: lamelona (14525)
Seat 3: clubbersuk (2550)
Seat 4: spicaIII (1610)
Seat 5: hazydays01 (4220)
Seat 6: teruka23 (5380)
Seat 7: Santino1967 (9335)
Seat 8: TUZANJON (2500)
Seat 10: Endeavoor (3780)
teruka23 posts small blind (100)
Santino1967 posts big blind (200)
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Dealing pocket cards
Dealing to Santino1967: [Qd, Ac]
TUZANJON folds
Endeavoor folds
Mentalisti folds
lamelona folds
clubbersuk folds
spicaIII raises 600 to 600
hazydays01 calls 600
teruka23 folds
Santino1967.....................? ? ?
Don"t call or fold. Best bet is probably a jam, a standard 3 bet will allow the coldcaller to flat your 3bet too often, especially if the shorty jams, which probably overcomplicates.
Cheers Dean
anyone else any opinions please?
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Same situation for me recently had ad qd raised by me then he shoves, so do i.
he has 8c 9s . Thought chi ching then flop 8d 8s 9c, just to rub it in tc - jd. Game over - run it in my head so many times and always do the same!
Its that 40% luck again!
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Probably a level from George.
I"d struggle to fold AQ vs a nit with 20 bigs so raise folding a hand this strong vs a maniac would be bad
Yeh sorry guys. Just me being a dousche. Think u know u played this correctly grant. Just one of those things. Fwiw tho aq is probably one of the biggest trap hands in hold em. I know from a lot of painful experience!
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Probably a level from George.
I"d struggle to fold AQ vs a nit with 20 bigs so raise folding a hand this strong vs a maniac would be bad
Yeh sorry guys. Just me being a dousche. Think u know u played this correctly grant. Just one of those things. Fwiw tho aq is probably one of the biggest trap hands in hold em. I know from a lot of painful experience!
Cheers George, good luck in Dublin mate, sure you"ll have your A game with you 8)
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Next situation............
Agaian, keen to know your thinking, FYI - Spicall has been caught in a couple of pots against preflop raisers so got short stacked, hazydays has been a bit of a calling station since i sat at table about half hour ago.
Seat 1: Mentalisti (9420)
Seat 2: lamelona (14525)
Seat 3: clubbersuk (2550)
Seat 4: spicaIII (1610)
Seat 5: hazydays01 (4220)
Seat 6: teruka23 (5380)
Seat 7: Santino1967 (9335)
Seat 8: TUZANJON (2500)
Seat 10: Endeavoor (3780)
teruka23 posts small blind (100)
Santino1967 posts big blind (200)
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Dealing pocket cards
Dealing to Santino1967: [Qd, Ac]
TUZANJON folds
Endeavoor folds
Mentalisti folds
lamelona folds
clubbersuk folds
spicaIII raises 600 to 600
hazydays01 calls 600
teruka23 folds
Santino1967.....................? ? ?
2nd spot result.........any opinions anyone, personally I believe it"s a really really bad call from hazydays but again keen to know your thoughts in same spot.
Santino1967 raises 9135 to 9335 [all in]
spicaIII calls 1010 [all in]
hazydays01 calls 3620 [all in]
--- Dealing flop [2s, 6h, 8h]
--- Dealing turn [Ts]
--- Dealing river [6d]
---
Summary:
Main pot: 4930 won by hazydays01 (4930)
Side pot 1: 5220 won by hazydays01 (5220)
Rake taken: $0
Seat 1: Mentalisti (9420)
Seat 2: lamelona (14525)
Seat 3: clubbersuk (2550)
Seat 4: spicaIII (0), net: -1610, [Jd, Ks] (PAIR SIX)
Seat 5: hazydays01 (10150), net: +5930, [Th, Ah] (TWO_PAIR TEN, SIX)
Seat 6: teruka23 (5280), net: -100
Seat 7: Santino1967 (5115), net: -4220, [Qd, Ac] (PAIR SIX)
Seat 8: TUZANJON (2500)
Seat 10: Endeavoor (3780)
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I wouldn"t worry too much what random muppets do. This really is a standard spot for you but you can"t win them all.
The biggest mistake you can make is using the result to justify folding or calling pre
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I wouldn"t worry too much what random muppets do. This really is a standard spot for you but you can"t win them all.
The biggest mistake you can make is using the result to justify folding or calling pre
Yeah Dean, only wondering if flatting pre would let me get away minimising my loss when I miss my AQ, especially when those 2 hearts hit flop>>>>Would anyone else consider the flat call pre OOP and re-assess on flop or has my play been pretty much standard?
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I wouldn"t worry too much what random muppets do. This really is a standard spot for you but you can"t win them all.
The biggest mistake you can make is using the result to justify folding or calling pre
Yeah Dean, only wondering if flatting pre would let me get away minimising my loss when I miss my AQ, especially when those 2 hearts hit flop>>>>Would anyone else consider the flat call pre OOP and re-assess on flop or has my play been pretty much standard?
Dean is 100% correct. This is a standard shove everytime, for reasons he mentioned. Try not to be results orientated.
First situation was also a standard shove. 62% equity way too good to turn down.
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Sorry Grant, but I hate the way you played the first hand. We have an opponent who will definitely double us up when we are really strong and we want to put everything on a gamble against him? AQ is not a huge favourite preflop against ATC.
you are a 62/38 favourite if he calls and gets to showdown. I would never pass up this edge in this spot.
Never? I would, if I was pretty certain that he will get it in when I am 90%+ fav.
As played, yeah go ahead now that we are here but we shouldn"t have got into this situation. Against this player, who raises or reraises every hand preflop and is happy to get all-in with ATC, I am raising virtually no hand, certainly not AQ, as his reraise will mean we are playing for my stack. If we limp pre and call his raise, we will get to the flop for 250/300 and can then decide how to proceed. Obviously we can"t fold on the flop repeatedly with these stack sizes, but we can this time if the flop stinks.
raise/folding from a stack of 20x is usually pretty poor.... against a maniac who"s range is ATC, is way too weak and spewy.
Agreed, so don"t raise.
In summary, against this player, I think we should get to the flop as cheaply as we can unless we have a genuine monster. If we hit the flop, accept the all-in as we are prob a huge favourite. We should be taking advantage of these players, not playing into their hands by giving away our edge and gambling with a hand that is slightly ahead. If we hit one of our high cards and he misses, if he then goes all-in we are a 95% favourite. As he is going to get it in irrespective, I would prefer to do it when I am going to lose 1 time out of 20, rather than 3/4 times out of 10. This is a tournament, not cash, albeit shallow-stacked. If you are happy to lose your stack 3/4 times out of 10 to a player you should be thrashing, I"m not.
The only justification for raising would be to isolate, cos you don"t really want others coming along. There is no mention in the OP of table positions, or whether any other players are still live at any stage, both of which are critical to how you should play this hand.
PS, separate to the situation with this player, I don"t like the raise size to 2.8 BB out of a stack of 20 BB.
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Glad to see the varied responses above, especially as they"re coming from different angles. Interesting comments about using result to justify the play and not being results orientated. I decided to start this thread specifically to get advice for just those reasons, having watched some tutorials about minimising your loss and analysing hands afterwards. Yeah, on both occasions I got donked by hands I was favourite against and the thought process of the other players is effectively out of my hands.....but learning from you guys is paramount to me improving as a player so many thanks for your input, keep those ideas coming 8)
I"ll also try to post hands where I got it badly badly wrong when the chips go in (regardless of the outcome :D ), again thanks for any replies in advance.
Grant
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Not that long ago I had ah :as: all in against :3s: 7s and was gubbed by 4s 5s qh, 6s, kd. After that I decided that not everbody folds because a player has played/indicated a big hand (and if that were always true it wouldnt be much of a game). IMHO sometimes that big bit of luck that is in the game is sometimes just worth a punt! It just comes round to the "when am I gonna shove!" and man up/take the chance to win.
TBH Charlie Sheen should be the spokesperson for "POKER".
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Not that long ago I had ah :as: all in against :3s: 7s and was gubbed by 4s 5s qh, 6s, kd. After that I decided that not everbody folds because a player has played/indicated a big hand (and if that were always true it wouldnt be much of a game). IMHO sometimes that big bit of luck that is in the game is sometimes just worth a punt! It just comes round to the "when am I gonna shove!" and man up/take the chance to win.
TBH Charlie Sheen should be the spokesperson for "POKER".
Absolutely agree with the "when am i gonna shove"......anywhere near 5 BB"s with antes just about any 2 cards are worth the value (hope they"re live, please let them be live :D ), but I"m mainly looking at cash and tournament situations where I may be able to learn from mistakes. Think we"ve all had the good fortune of doubling up with a crazy short stack shove and ran into QQ/AK or similar in the blinds, but those situations are generally unavoidable and play themselves out........and yeah Charlie"s the man for that particular "job" ;)
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OK gang another spot for your consideration, TBH I"d usually raise or fold pre with this kind of hand, but the SB has been raising pre + post flop, not necessarily with premium starting hands and BB Voodafe hasn"t long joined the table and hasn"t shown many cards. So what should the Fat Charlie boy do here.............
Total number of players : 8
Seat 1: gvozd13 ( $2 )
Seat 2: kruch4444 ( $4.65 )
Seat 3: SantinoAPAT ( $16.67 )
Seat 5: szoly0510 ( $10.02 )
Seat 6: rainymood ( $10 )
Seat 7: chomper29 ( $1.75 )
Seat 9: krasser17 ( $20.51 )
Seat 10: voodafe ( $11.28 )
krasser17 posts small blind [$0.05]
voodafe posts big blind [$0.10]
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to SantinoAPAT [ 8c 6c ]
gvozd13 folds
kruch4444 folds
SantinoAPAT calls [$0.10]
szoly0510 folds
rainymood folds
chomper29 folds
krasser17 calls [$0.05]
voodafe checks
** Dealing flop ** [ qc 9c 7c ]
krasser17 bets [$0.30]
voodafe calls [$0.30]
SantinoAPAT raises [$2]
krasser17 raises [$20.11 all in]
voodafe folds
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Is this turning into a bad beat thread?
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Gee, Grant, that"s a tough one.
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Is this turning into a bad beat thread?
Not bad beats as such Dean, bad decisions maybe. Minimising losses, making the correct decisions, learning from my fellow APAT members and playing better (hopefully ;) )
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Gee, Grant, that"s a tough one.
Is that a fold then John??? :P
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You may be ahead but if I was playing this , fold for me !!
but what do I know LOL
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I"m calling......we call here right...fk the four flush with his ks qd ks
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Is this turning into a bad beat thread?
Not bad beats as such Dean, bad decisions maybe. Minimising losses, making the correct decisions, learning from my fellow APAT members and playing better (hopefully ;) )
Thing is Grant, it isn"t really a decision though is it? If you are going to limp with this sort of hand, what flop are you hoping for, and why wouldn"t you commit your chips when you hit it? You limp SCs hoping to hit big, and it couldn"t get much bigger than it did, so there is no decision.
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Looks highly likely that either he"s hit trips and he thinks he"s protecting his hand, or you"re drawing to a two-outer. I"m reluctantly calling here.
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Grant in a full handed micro stakes game more often than not u will run into a real hand, rethink your whole approach.
so basically all u have to do is just attack the weak players to make money in the micros, raise to isolate a loose passive fish, or reraise to isolate a loose aggressive maniac etc. attack players who cannot fold 2nd best hands or attack weak tight types who fold to aggression or who may check fold/give up to much.. so size up the types u are up against, get a read on them, be it that are they fish, maniacs, or calling stations etc, isolate them with position and adjust your range using hands that have big hand potential or something that can make a decent tptk etc... its important in the micros to be selective when opening a pot from earlier, but from late position u can open up to a more short handed game style.
so in summary in micro full ring game base your game around the strategy of isolating anyone who does anything that is easy to exploit, after all its cash, u are playing for the long term, sit there and get used to judging the ability of your opponents and what strength hands they are prepared to stack off with/over play etc, use position and exploit them... forget blind stealing to a certain extent unless of course they fold enough to make it profitable to steal super wide..
if u dont have a read and these guys are going berserk on any flop more-so on textures like these, then just fold.. adjust later if/when u see a showdown..
question - given the stacks sizes, how the action goes plus the flop texture, how often in your opinion will u see a worse hand?
with reads = more correct decisions long term = profit long term
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Grant in a full handed micro stakes game more often than not u will run into a real hand, rethink your whole approach.
so basically all u have to do is just attack the weak players to make money in the micros, raise to isolate a loose passive fish, or reraise to isolate a loose aggressive maniac etc. attack players who cannot fold 2nd best hands or attack weak tight types who fold to aggression or who may check fold/give up to much.. so size up the types u are up against, get a read on them, be it that are they fish, maniacs, or calling stations etc, isolate them with position and adjust your range using hands that have big hand potential or something that can make a decent tptk etc... its important in the micros to be selective when opening a pot from earlier, but from late position u can open up to a more short handed game style.
so in summary in micro full ring game base your game around the strategy of isolating anyone who does anything that is easy to exploit, after all its cash, u are playing for the long term, sit there and get used to judging the ability of your opponents and what strength hands they are prepared to stack off with/over play etc, use position and exploit them... forget blind stealing to a certain extent unless of course they fold enough to make it profitable to steal super wide..
if u dont have a read and these guys are going berserk on any flop more-so on textures like these, then just fold.. adjust later if/when u see a showdown..
question - given the stacks sizes, how the action goes plus the flop texture, how often in your opinion will u see a worse hand?
with reads = more correct decisions long term = profit long term
Absolutely agree Noble so my thinking is along the lines of 2 of the 3 players on my left I know fairly well (Szoly - fairly solid, doesn"t get too involved without cards...and Chomper - will shove his short stack with any reasonable ace or PP) and they have position on me so i fold to any pre-flop raise OOP. SB Krasser is a bit of a maniac, plays too many pots but been using his stack well to bully.
Had I picked up this hand in Cut Off or Button in this situation I"m raising probably (so should the same apply 2 or 3 seats to the right with the 2 tightys on my left? Dumb question probably, just shouldn"t be limping full stop i suppose). The hands I"ve actually seen that Krasser has exposed have been things like J/9, K/8, Q/10 etc and he"s been tangled up with these to turn/river/showdowns holding stuff like 2nd pair, top pair weak kicker, straight draw etc, won some and lost some. I know he"s willing to gamble with the Queen in his hand or the bigger club draw. Did I get it badly wrong...........
SantinoAPAT calls [$14.57]
** Dealing turn ** [ 8h ]
** Dealing river ** [ 5c ]
** Summary **
SantinoAPAT shows [ 8c 6c ]
krasser17 shows [ Jc Kc ]
SantinoAPAT collected [ $32.06 ]
Yeah on this occasion the poker gods shone their light on me, but tbh i was stunned when i saw what he was holding. Simply because I"d seen him raise pre with a number of weaker unsuited hands. Given my read on his range and Steve"s comment about hitting the flop big I went with the call and got it horribly wrong. There aren"t many times I play that i actually feel like a complete donk, but have to admit this was one of them (despite the end result). More experience, more learning, better reading needed...........cheers for the advice guys, all much appreciated
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Grant in a full handed micro stakes game more often than not u will run into a real hand, rethink your whole approach.
so basically all u have to do is just attack the weak players to make money in the micros, raise to isolate a loose passive fish, or reraise to isolate a loose aggressive maniac etc. attack players who cannot fold 2nd best hands or attack weak tight types who fold to aggression or who may check fold/give up to much.. so size up the types u are up against, get a read on them, be it that are they fish, maniacs, or calling stations etc, isolate them with position and adjust your range using hands that have big hand potential or something that can make a decent tptk etc... its important in the micros to be selective when opening a pot from earlier, but from late position u can open up to a more short handed game style.
so in summary in micro full ring game base your game around the strategy of isolating anyone who does anything that is easy to exploit, after all its cash, u are playing for the long term, sit there and get used to judging the ability of your opponents and what strength hands they are prepared to stack off with/over play etc, use position and exploit them... forget blind stealing to a certain extent unless of course they fold enough to make it profitable to steal super wide..
if u dont have a read and these guys are going berserk on any flop more-so on textures like these, then just fold.. adjust later if/when u see a showdown..
question - given the stacks sizes, how the action goes plus the flop texture, how often in your opinion will u see a worse hand?
with reads = more correct decisions long term = profit long term
Another nice post Noble but!
This one sentence is contradictory and imho, bad advise. Blind stealing is a major factor in your win rate and an integral part of a winning strategy. You absolutely must understand, and correctly exploit stealing opportunities.
Santino: Try seperate threads for these hands, much cleaner and easier for posters to find the hand they are following.
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forget blind stealing to a certain extent unless of course they fold enough to make it profitable to steal super wide..
This one sentence is contradictory and imho, bad advise. Blind stealing is a major factor in your win rate and an integral part of a winning strategy. You absolutely must understand, and correctly exploit stealing opportunities.
naaa , i did say to a certain extent and unless its profitable.... just trying to point out the major difference between 6max and full ring...
i should of wrote - Blind stealing is a major factor in your win rate in 6max, less so in full ring...
Santino: Try seperate threads for these hands, much cleaner and easier for posters to find the hand they are following.
or stick the whole session hh in a replayer, give the link and see if the APATers can pick up on anything u maybe missing..