Amateur Poker Association & Tour
Poker Forum => General Discussion => Topic started by: George2Loose on September 13, 2011, 17:56:48 PM
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I know this has been discussed before.
But is it time to up/vary APAT buy ins for next season.
Sky have just announced their new tour which varies it"s buy ins and looks very exciting and is aimed at a similar market
Is APAT being left behind?
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I know this has been discussed before.
But is it time to up/vary APAT buy ins for next season.
Sky have just announced their new tour which varies it"s buy ins and looks very exciting and is aimed at a similar market
Is APAT being left behind?
APAT have a winning formula, I can"t see any reason to change it. I see them as leading the way not getting left behind.
As George says, there are other options and if people want higher buy-ins they know where to find them.
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I think the APAT WCOAP Main Event selling out as it did at £100+ (not just this but previous years) shows that there"s demand and that APAT players can and are prepared to pay a little more. I"m not saying increase buyin"s for all events but I like Georges idea of some varied buy ins next season.
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I think the APAT WCOAP Main Event selling out as it did at £100+ (not just this but previous years) shows that there"s demand and that APAT players can and are prepared to pay a little more. I"m not saying increase buyin"s for all events but I like Georges idea of some varied buy ins next season.
You got more chips in the WCOAP didn"t you?
I would have thought the fact that it"s taking longer for tournaments to sell out is probably a good sign that they shouldn"t be tinkered with excessively. Despite the number of regulars and veterans in APAT there are still plenty of "new" people coming through; if there was more emphasis on more expensive tournaments I think this would put a lot of new players off.
A standard national buy in, and a premium event seems a good plan, I don"t see any need to change it.
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You got more chips in the WCOAP didn"t you?
Temporarily :( ....
Take your point though for the UK based events.. however I have heard on more than one occasion that "£75 buyin isn"t worth going abroard to play in" etc.
Personally I treat the abroad trips as a mini holiday with the added bonus of an APAT event to play and socialise at. I wonder if the abroard trips would get more interest though and UK based players playing if the buy in and prize fund increased a little. When you"re paying a few hundred quid for flights and hotel, adding an extra £25+ onto the buyin really isnt going to make a huge difference.
Just my twopenneth x
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Agree with john here.
Also Phil,you say that, but by the same token, is an extra 25 notes gonna make the trip any more artractive to the people who see no value in 75 quid?
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I like the idea of increasing the buy in. Travelling from Scotland for APAT events is not cheap (or easy) cheap flights may be readily available down south but up here its not the case. I cant even get to Cork because of lack of fights. sorry side rant must stay on point. Another £25 is nothing when my flights and hotel(has to be 2 nights) are already going to be over £200.
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Higher buy-ins would be good - I would always add give people more scope to qualify for them.
Alternative - have some re-buy events with existing buy-ins - people can then choose to attach or defend - whilst the pot gets pumped up.
Travel and hotel costs dwarf the buy-in - so incentive is to play local events with higher buy-ins.
L
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Higher buy-ins would be good - I would always add give people more scope to qualify for them.
Alternative - have some re-buy events with existing buy-ins - people can then choose to attach or defend - whilst the pot gets pumped up.
Travel and hotel costs dwarf the buy-in - so incentive is to play local events with higher buy-ins.
Higher buy-ins would be bad. I would always make these tournaments cheap enough to allow for new casual players to take part at a reasonable cost.
Re-buys....horrible idea favouring those with deeper pockets (see my first point above).
Yes, travel and hotels can overshadow the buy-ins...but now you want to increase the total and make it even worse for those of us who choose to travel?
If I wanted to play a higher buy-in comp with a worse structure and no social element, I could...but why would I?
If you cast your mind back to last year, we had a £250 comp on offer within APAT....didn"t take off now did it? I think that proves that the demand for higher buy-ins isn"t there even if a tiny minority might favour them. (Sorry Des).
Oh cr*p, I think I just agreed with Jon!
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If you cast your mind back to last year, we had a £250 comp on offer within APAT....didn"t take off now did it? I think that proves that the demand for higher buy-ins isn"t there even if a tiny minority might favour them. (Sorry Des).
I don"t think anyones talking about a £175 increase Paulie, I definitely wouldnt pay £250 and I"m personally not a fan of the re-buy idea either. However if I"m paying for flights and hotel for several nights £25+ish aint gonna make any difference at all.. its only the cost of a round with Ger anyway ;)
200 runners extra £5000+ in the pot might be some incentive for more players to get involved on the abroad trips. How many made the trip to Venice (sorry Vienna) last time? A dozen of us? Just being devils advocate as I"d go anyways regardless x
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I agree that £25 wouldn"t put me off (it might some) but an extra £75 would. I guess it depends on what level the people in favour of increasing the buy-ins are thinking of.
Let us also not forget that by increasing the buy-in we"d also (probably) increase the vig...which would have to be covered by sponsors (who are getting harder to find).
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Leave it as it is. I see George is in every UKIPT event so can understand that £75 is getting a bit small fry for him. Maybe he has outgrown APAT and let"s face it some will always break out from our ranks and better themselves in tougher pricier fields and there"s nothing wrong with that. We all know George will make it.
Aside from the fact I enjoy the social aspect, I play APAT because it offers a great structure at an affordable price, and when there"s two of us to buy in it"s already not cheap. I/we would have to be much more choosy if it got more expensive to enter, and APAT visits would no longer be blacked out on my calendar. There"s plenty of £100/£150 events around - especially in the midlands, so if APAT became that price too then they just become like the rest.
A similar arguement gets thrown about from time to time about the world series ME. It"s been $10,000 for donkeys. Granted they introduced some high roller events to satisfy the pro"s but lets face it we tried that too for a season with the £250 series and it wasn"t exactly a roaring success.
Don"t fix what aint broke.
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I can understand the logic of varied buy-ins, but would hate the thought of a higher standard buy in for APAT games.
£75 is just about perfect for a irregular amateur players buyin (by amateur, I"m meaning social/occasional) which is the mass market within Poker, and the area to be tapped into mostly for APAT going forward, I would think.
That said, to accomodate the varied buy in option for the players seeking more value and prize money, without losing the social atompshere that APAT offers, I"d suggest the "abroad" trips have the higher buy in.
If your going to pay out for hotels, travel over a weekend (accepting others do already for UK venues aswell ("....all of the people, all of the time" etc)) then an extra £50-100 for the Buyin isn"t really an issue - one could argue.
:-\
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Leave it as it is. I see George is in every UKIPT event so can understand that £75 is getting a bit small fry for him. Maybe he has outgrown APAT and let"s face it some will always break out from our ranks and better themselves in tougher pricier fields and there"s nothing wrong with that. We all know George will make it.
Aside from the fact I enjoy the social aspect, I play APAT because it offers a great structure at an affordable price, and when there"s two of us to buy in it"s already not cheap. I/we would have to be much more choosy if it got more expensive to enter, and APAT visits would no longer be blacked out on my calendar. There"s plenty of £100/£150 events around - especially in the midlands, so if APAT became that price too then they just become like the rest.
A similar arguement gets thrown about from time to time about the world series ME. It"s been $10,000 for donkeys. Granted they introduced some high roller events to satisfy the pro"s but lets face it we tried that too for a season with the £250 series and it wasn"t exactly a roaring success.
Don"t fix what aint broke.
Re the buy in. Nothing to do with my personal motivation of wanting the tour to get any more expensive. Just opening up the debate. Sky have aimed for a similar market as APAT I believe and have upped the ante so to speak. Just wondering whether APAT would look to follow suit
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Yeah there are people who"ve been playing APATs for years, and have improved their game massively.... and are now paying £200/£300+ for their usual tourneys and I can understand why that might make the £75 APAT nationals seem a little small fry.
However, on the flip side, in my opinion, APAT is about bringing new players into the UK poker market, and keeping it affordable is essential to achieve this. As players develop, other tours may become more relevant for them - but that is not a reason for APAT to change.
If we adjust the APAT tour to fit with the it"s current players as they develop and improve, how will the tour achieve it"s aim of bringing in new blood?
Leave it as it is, and for those that want to spend more to justify travel expense etc, there are other more appropriate tours around. APAT does a marvellous job, and there is still a market gap for it to fill.
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Higher buy-ins would be good - I would always add give people more scope to qualify for them.
Alternative - have some re-buy events with existing buy-ins - people can then choose to attach or defend - whilst the pot gets pumped up.
Travel and hotel costs dwarf the buy-in - so incentive is to play local events with higher buy-ins.
Higher buy-ins would be bad. I would always make these tournaments cheap enough to allow for new casual players to take part at a reasonable cost.
Re-buys....horrible idea favouring those with deeper pockets (see my first point above).
Yes, travel and hotels can overshadow the buy-ins...but now you want to increase the total and make it even worse for those of us who choose to travel?
If I wanted to play a higher buy-in comp with a worse structure and no social element, I could...but why would I?
If you cast your mind back to last year, we had a £250 comp on offer within APAT....didn"t take off now did it? I think that proves that the demand for higher buy-ins isn"t there even if a tiny minority might favour them. (Sorry Des).
Oh cr*p, I think I just agreed with Jon!
I don"t think it a binary option between £75 and £250 buy-ins.
The Pro-League did not work - it was a side event to the main tour - if there was a higher buy-in main tour event - say £150 - I am pretty sure that it would sell out.
What is the down side - not everyone could afford to buy in directly - make sure there are more qualifying events.
What"s the upside - you might strengthen the APAT tour by having a variance of events that might draw a wider array of amateur players. I would guess that most people who play £150-£300 buy events and not professional players - I could be wrong.
Why would the higher buy-in event have a worse structure - it can have exactly the same structure - or whatever structure APAT choose to give it.
Re-buys - not a big deal - it would interesting - some variance in the tour - it could be limited to one re-buy/add on as required. It takes away the KK vs AA exit early on ...
(Higher buy-ins for abroad - great idea)
L
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"If we adjust the APAT tour to fit with the it"s current players as they develop and improve, how will the tour achieve it"s aim of bringing in new blood?"
Is that the APAT's (only) aim?
I"d say a varierty of events would allow all amateurs a chance to develop and progress - or stay within a wider and wider APAT tour.
L
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i agree that APATs place in the market is for aspiring amateurs looking for a good game at competative prices however things have changed. the worlds at nottingham were a great success but for the rest of the year there are no events left for those APAT regulars looking for a good game which kind of also ties in with the other thread about easy travel access to venues. i personally bookeded leave in advance on all APAT weekends - unfortunately Cork not easily accessable; Luton not possible unless u are part of a forum; vegas- bit far; london in december 250 pound buy-in; jan prague................
SO where has the cheap buyin game for the APAT regular gone?????????????/
Yeah there are people who"ve been playing APATs for years, and have improved their game massively.... and are now paying £200/£300+ for their usual tourneys and I can understand why that might make the £75 APAT nationals seem a little small fry.
However, on the flip side, in my opinion, APAT is about bringing new players into the UK poker market, and keeping it affordable is essential to achieve this. As players develop, other tours may become more relevant for them - but that is not a reason for APAT to change.
If we adjust the APAT tour to fit with the it"s current players as they develop and improve, how will the tour achieve it"s aim of bringing in new blood?
Leave it as it is, and for those that want to spend more to justify travel expense etc, there are other more appropriate tours around. APAT does a marvellous job, and there is still a market gap for it to fill.
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I don"t get the idea of making it cheap on the mainland and more expensive when we go abroad. Seems a bit unfair on the locals abroad (i.e. Estonians, Austrians, Scottish) and might be a good way of ensuring that they stay away too!
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Sky have aimed for a similar market as APAT I believe and have upped the ante so to speak. Just wondering whether APAT would look to follow suit
I get what you are saying George but my question is "What factors do you consider that would make it necessary (or desirable) for APAT to follow Sky"
Is APAT losing ground to Sky...and if so, in what areas?
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I may be wrong but i thought for the sky live tour there was no direct buy in.You had to qualify online by playing the sats,,so in fact nobody would be laying out the full price for a seat.
If that is still the case it isn"t really comparable with apat events
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What is the down side - not everyone could afford to buy in directly - make sure there are more qualifying events.
The downside is that you drive away the people who can"t buy in at the higher level and can"t bink a seat.
The "qualifiers" aren"t really qualifiers, they are satellites to enable people to win a seat without spending the whole amount....that"s a whole different animal.
One doesn"t qualify to play an APAT...one buys in or wins a seat.
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i agree that APATs place in the market is for aspiring amateurs looking for a good game at competative prices however things have changed. the worlds at nottingham were a great success but for the rest of the year there are no events left for those APAT regulars looking for a good game which kind of also ties in with the other thread about easy travel access to venues. i personally bookeded leave in advance on all APAT weekends - unfortunately Cork not easily accessable; Luton not possible unless u are part of a forum; vegas- bit far; london in december 250 pound buy-in; jan prague................
SO where has the cheap buyin game for the APAT regular gone?
Perhaps I"m missing your point but I"m not sure what you"re asking here...if you mean that for the rest of the season there are no "cheap" events then that"s probably true....but that means you had the cheap events earlier in the year ....but that"s not the discussion we"re having.
Oh...and it"s not Prague. [:)]
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If you have higher buy ins for the foreign tournaments you might gain a few people attracted by the higher prize fund - but then you"d lose one or two people who couldn"t justify spending out money on travel, accommodation and the (higher) tournament fee.
The overseas APAT's are primarily full of local players, I don"t see why the effect it has on a tiny minority of the field should affect the buy in for them.
NB. putting the buy in up and increasing the satellites won"t balance out, if people are used to buying in direct they won"t switch to trying to win a satellite - they just won"t play. It would definitely put off players new to APAT if there was that perceived extra barrier on top of the higher buy in.
Putting the buy in up to £150 would completely change the tour, it would just be the same (albeit better structure) as so much else available.
Putting the buy in up to £100 wouldn"t have to change the demographics of who enters (and reduce the demand significantly) - but it probably would. Paying a £100 to enter a single tournament is a psychological hurdle that a lot of players (particularly those who haven"t played live before) won"t cross.
If the economy was booming and everybody was awash with cash then the demand might hold up, but as it is then moving it to £100 or above will change the nature of the tournaments.
And once you start looking at changes below £100 then it"s barely going to make a difference. Face it you"re never going to make a living from playing APAT tournaments, good players will get the occasional free good weekend, and the rest of us will just have to put up with the good weekends. That"s worked well so far, why risk it?
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OK one point at a time:
1) I"m not putting a case forward either way. My aim was never to argue one way or the other- simply to put forward the debate.
2) I made a point to say vary the buy in. Not up them all. I"m just saying if APAT tried a couple more marquee events.
3) In any industry surely each tour aims to supercede the rest. I admit APAT had a niche market but it doesn"t hurt to try and stay ahead of the competition esp. if APAT want to continue to attract the best sponsorship package for the tour
4) If it ain"t broken don"t fix it!!! Sorry to single you out Andy but this phrase is the most frustrating of the lot. Where would we be if we had that attitude? Fixed payouts, no antes and no 150/300 level!!!
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OK one point at a time:
1) I"m not putting a case forward either way. My aim was never to argue one way or the other- simply to put forward the debate.
2) I made a point to say vary the buy in. Not up them all. I"m just saying if APAT tried a couple more marquee events.
3) In any industry surely each tour aims to supercede the rest. I admit APAT had a niche market but it doesn"t hurt to try and stay ahead of the competition esp. if APAT want to continue to attract the best sponsorship package for the tour
4) If it ain"t broken don"t fix it!!! Sorry to single you out Andy but this phrase is the most frustrating of the lot. Where would we be if we had that attitude? Fixed payouts, no antes and no 150/300 level!!!
Aha...I"m loving the debate...we seem to have it every year and it always throws out some interesting points.
It seems to me that the ones who can afford the higher buy-ins are in favour of increasing them whereas poor folk like me aren"t...but perhaps that"s logical.
I like the idea of more marquee events (although the calendar is quite full)...subject to suitable sponsors...Hmmm!
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Something like a few higher buy in tournaments - but not as many as the main league. Made open to everyone, including pro"s. Maybe with some added value to whoever does best?
Even if you change the buy in to a lower amount I still think how few people showed up for the pro league would suggest that their isn"t really the demand for it.
Another marquee event would be cool though, expanding the European Championships into a week long festival like the worlds for example - I"m sure Tighty wouldn"t mind organising that for next year, it"ll stop him getting bored ;D
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Leave it as it is, and for those that want to spend more to justify travel expense etc, there are other more appropriate tours around. APAT does a marvellous job, and there is still a market gap for it to fill.
This is the key point imo, Apat found and provided for their niche by offering "affordable well structured events". Some of the problem as I see it is that the "not so affordable well structured events" market has been hit hard in the economic downturn. They have had to pare back their buy in levels from the heady heights of £1k - £5k and sit closer to Apat now at the £200 - £1k range.
A hike in entry fee may just take Apat out of the range their target audience are prepared to pay. It might be the case that a reduced entry fee will best serve Apat in attempting to maintain its mass appeal and preserve their niche identity. Sadly such a move may hurt some loyal patrons and make it less attractive to travel for multiple events per season.
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The unsuccessful Pro-League may well be the argument against all future change ...
What was the aspiration behind the APAT starting the Pro-League?
What was it looking to acheive?
Would it still like to achieve those aims?
If more marquee events sold out would that prove a different point?
L
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paulie i"ll give you some credit- i dont think you missed my point. the point wasn"t the lack of "cheap" events, the point was and still is: no accessable games for regular APAT players for the rest of the year regardless of exact location in january
i agree that APATs place in the market is for aspiring amateurs looking for a good game at competative prices however things have changed. the worlds at nottingham were a great success but for the rest of the year there are no events left for those APAT regulars looking for a good game which kind of also ties in with the other thread about easy travel access to venues. i personally bookeded leave in advance on all APAT weekends - unfortunately Cork not easily accessable; Luton not possible unless u are part of a forum; vegas- bit far; london in december 250 pound buy-in; jan prague................
SO where has the cheap buyin game for the APAT regular gone?
Perhaps I"m missing your point but I"m not sure what you"re asking here...if you mean that for the rest of the season there are no "cheap" events then that"s probably true....but that means you had the cheap events earlier in the year ....but that"s not the discussion we"re having.
Oh...and it"s not Prague. [:)]
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paulie i"ll give you some credit- i dont think you missed my point. the point wasn"t the lack of "cheap" events, the point was and still is: no accessable games for regular APAT players for the rest of the year regardless of exact location in january
OK...I honestly thought I"d missed something.
The subject you raise is, perhaps, deserving of a thread of it"s own as it"s a scheduling thing rather than dealing with the overall "cheapness" of the events.
I agree that the "overall costlier" events (if one chooses to attend) have been bunched at the end of 2011 and I"m sure that"s something Des and Richard will be looking at for next year.
However, that is not really to the point of the buy-ins centred discussion in this thread....if you see what I mean.
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2) I made a point to say vary the buy in. Not up them all. I"m just saying if APAT tried a couple more marquee events.
We already do vary the buy in. £75 standard and £100 for the worlds? However, I could be missing your point as I"m not sure what you mean by "marquee events".
4) If it ain"t broken don"t fix it!!! Sorry to single you out Andy but this phrase is the most frustrating of the lot. Where would we be if we had that attitude? Fixed payouts, no antes and no 150/300 level!!!
Apology not required! I take your point in general as yes it"s a lazy over used phrase, but I was referring directly to the buy-in. I don"t think APAT gained or lost many people from the tweaks you mention. The cost of buy-in is much more fundamental to the choice of whether to play or not. And I don"t think there"s compelling evidence to suggest APAT have got it wrong at the current level(s).
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I"d like to raise another point, which is buy-in related.
The overseas events were designed, I believe, to spread the APAT word around Europe and also provide "away days" for those fortunate enough to be able to afford to go on them.
It seems to me that the word has been spread well by all those that have travelled, (despite the Chief Scouts exploits ;)) but we don"t see any overseas players from Euroland travelling here to play in our "home"events. The Irish guys come from hither and thither whenever and wherever there is a game and, transport allowing, so do the Scots. Travel is obv. easier for the Welsh boys and girls and they also come virtually come what may. Our friends from Canada and the USA play regularly and I know that my personal friends in the Portuguese team had the time of their lives at DTD, but have no plans to travel here for single events, as the Portuguese Poker Tour provides enough events (1 per month) for them. I assume that this is also true for France, Italy and the like.
Therefore are the Euro events just for those that have the means to pay that bit extra (and I am one who has been to almost all) or would the membership not be better served by more home events to cater for the undoubted demand.
My suggestion would be that there are no more than 2 "away" events per year with the remaining calender being evenly spread throughout the year, and country, but with the proviso that all events attract the same buy in, thus keeping it affordable for all. After all, whilst £4k is a lovely reward for a weekends poker at the current buy in, would increased buy-ins and first placed prizes of £4.5/5k change anyones life?
After all, I think most of us play for the friendship, competition and enjoyment first, and that any prize is a nice bonus.
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The concept of APAT is about bringing value poker to the masses for affordable buy in - but I thought it was also about standardisation of the game.... and to achieve that, it has to gain exposure beyond the UK shores.
APAT is about bringing new players into the UK poker market
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I know this has been discussed before.
But is it time to up/vary APAT buy ins for next season.
Sky have just announced their new tour which varies it"s buy ins and looks very exciting and is aimed at a similar market
Is APAT being left behind?
Before i have even read any other posts i totally disagree!! APAT in my opinion is aimed at a specific group of players i.e. amatuers with low to mid buy in options..... they have built up a good name for themselves and kept to the original audience they wanted to stay with them!!
Affordable buy in, good structure, and most importantly friendly gaming. I actually want to raise a glass to APAT for this!! If you feel the same give me a glass raised!! ;)
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I"ll raise my glass to that!
Joining APAT was my first foray into bigger buy-in tournaments. It was never my intention to start playing them all the time but over time and meeting the people i"ve met through them they"ve become my favourite tournaments and when the schedule comes out I immediately start looking at which ones i can play.
For me APAT is all about the amateur player (hence the name!). Through APAT and through being in the BCPC i"ve been given the chance to play in both a UKIPT and a GUKPT. I couldn"t possibly afford to play in those any other way (although i did once spend my whole winnings from a tourney to play in a £500 deepstack but that was a one-off!). Therefore, playing the APAT events for me is a fantastic way to get to play in a 2 day deepstack for a reasonable buy-in.
I sometimes play other events where the buy-ins are higher but they are much more solitary affairs. Heading home from DTD having lost £100 playing in one of there events doesn"t come close to getting knocked out of an APAT event. One involves a long drive home thinking what I did wrong or what a bad beat i"ve just had. The other involves heading to the bar to see Ger, Scouse, Dan Owston, Paul McGuiness, Carl Lybert, Paul Pitchford, Jo Sharp, Debbie Kimm, Grant Speirs, JP Round, Jaxie, James Barber, the whole APAT crew, all the BCPC crew, the long suffering Mrs O etc etc etc etc etc etc and having a great night. That"s one thing the Sky Poker Tour and no other i"ve played at has got.
I"d love one day to be able to play all the time and have the dollar to afford to play the bigger events but until then i"ll keep on playing the APAT events as they"re a great way to get to play fantastically structured tourneys at a decent price, and more than that a fantastic way for amateur players to learn the game and to do so surrounded by some of the nicest people on the poker circuit, many of whom have become good friends. Had they been much more i doubt i"d have ever started playing them and that would be a big loss.
And besides, where else can you get to pay just £75 and get to play along such luminaries as Tony Trippier who won a bronze in the stud?!
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Interesting debate again
Some points
- APAT and Sky Poker Tour are not necessarily looking to do the same thing. For example the SPT has a budget of (think of a number and double it) and at the recent Grand Final had NINE staff running it. Different animals, looking to do different things
- £75 buy ins, or £100 maybe, are where it is at for APAT. All APAT events are marquee events to my mind!
- I see no merit in asking overseas players at European events to pay £150-200 say for the equivalent event that you"d get at the English Amateur in Coventry. By going to European locations we are spreading the word about APAT and looking to mirror the experience that the UK players have. Whilst we obviously hope that many UK players travel across the primary aim I think everyone can see is a growth strategy. To a venue none of the European players we introduce to APAT get sub £100 10k 45m clock freezeouts with added value. Hence these events sell out and demand is there for more.
- There were various issues around this year"s schedule. For next year expect the same mix of National Championships in the UK, and new formats, plus overseas events. I don"t see that APAT is being left behind
- All that being said APAT's scope for next year depends in large part on the sponsorship market
- For those who want higher buy ins, APAT offered them in the Pro League and is offering it again in the London Pro-Am event this December. Next year, a variety of formats should be expected again
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i agree that APATs place in the market is for aspiring amateurs looking for a good game at competative prices however things have changed. the worlds at nottingham were a great success but for the rest of the year there are no events left for those APAT regulars looking for a good game which kind of also ties in with the other thread about easy travel access to venues. i personally bookeded leave in advance on all APAT weekends - unfortunately Cork not easily accessable; Luton not possible unless u are part of a forum; vegas- bit far; london in december 250 pound buy-in; jan prague................
SO where has the cheap buyin game for the APAT regular gone?????????????/
Yeah there are people who"ve been playing APATs for years, and have improved their game massively.... and are now paying £200/£300+ for their usual tourneys and I can understand why that might make the £75 APAT nationals seem a little small fry.
However, on the flip side, in my opinion, APAT is about bringing new players into the UK poker market, and keeping it affordable is essential to achieve this. As players develop, other tours may become more relevant for them - but that is not a reason for APAT to change.
If we adjust the APAT tour to fit with the it"s current players as they develop and improve, how will the tour achieve it"s aim of bringing in new blood?
Leave it as it is, and for those that want to spend more to justify travel expense etc, there are other more appropriate tours around. APAT does a marvellous job, and there is still a market gap for it to fill.
the £75 APAT national championship has gone nowhere
It is merely the Season 5 schedule, and various planning issues around that, that meant most were in the first half of the year
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The unsuccessful Pro-League may well be the argument against all future change ...
What was the aspiration behind the APAT starting the Pro-League?
What was it looking to acheive?
Would it still like to achieve those aims?
If more marquee events sold out would that prove a different point?
L
aspiration: to grow APAT into different player bases
Yes would still like to achieve that
All APAT events are thought by Des and I to be marquee events
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My glass israised....
I was introduced to APAT and was immediately a fan. Why?
It was a chance to play a "champagne tournament at a lemonade price"
My normal game is against players who see suited cards as a good hand. With APAT the standard is good therefore the game is good. I could live with paying £100 but anything more would probably price me out.
Regarding the overseas events I think they need reconsidering. As said by someone else, locals play them because its there and don"t become regulars so should the games be focused more towards the UK? As for Las Vegas... What are APAT hoping to achieve with this? Yes, I would love to be going but i"m sure no LV locals will be rushing to the UK due to lack of games in their area!
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Regarding the overseas events I think they need reconsidering. As said by someone else, locals play them because its there and don"t become regulars so should the games be focused more towards the UK? As for Las Vegas... What are APAT hoping to achieve with this? Yes, I would love to be going but i"m sure no LV locals will be rushing to the UK due to lack of games in their area!
It is not about the Overseas players becoming regulars. We don"t expect many to be coming over to the UK for events. A few do, same for UK players going over to Europe
Same for Vegas, it"s about growing APAT's reach, membership base and long term aspirations.
The task for the organiser is to satisfy the requirements of the core UK player base, and grow the APAT concept/brand too
Over 5 seasons, we do that I think!
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Wouldnt change much except round the buy in up to £100, don"t think I would vary buyin except for main event
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Lots of good points, but don"t change it IMHO :)
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I sometimes play other events where the buy-ins are higher but they are much more solitary affairs. Heading home from DTD having lost £100 playing in one of there events doesn"t come close to getting knocked out of an APAT event. One involves a long drive home thinking what I did wrong or what a bad beat i"ve just had. The other involves heading to the bar to see Ger, Scouse, Dan Owston, Paul McGuiness, Carl Lybert, Paul Pitchford, Jo Sharp, Debbie Kimm, Grant Speirs, JP Round, Jaxie, James Barber, the whole APAT crew, all the BCPC crew, the long suffering Mrs O etc etc etc etc etc etc and having a great night.
You left out Surinder Sunar. ;D
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I sometimes play other events where the buy-ins are higher but they are much more solitary affairs. Heading home from DTD having lost £100 playing in one of there events doesn"t come close to getting knocked out of an APAT event. One involves a long drive home thinking what I did wrong or what a bad beat i"ve just had. The other involves heading to the bar to see Ger, Scouse, Dan Owston, Paul McGuiness, Carl Lybert, Paul Pitchford, Jo Sharp, Debbie Kimm, Grant Speirs, JP Round, Jaxie, James Barber, the whole APAT crew, all the BCPC crew, the long suffering Mrs O etc etc etc etc etc etc and having a great night.
And wheres the Stockton Massive?? :"(
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And wheres the Stockton Massive?? :"(
Still in the tournament maybe ;D
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Still in the tournament maybe ;D
... everyone"s a comedian.... :D
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I sometimes play other events where the buy-ins are higher but they are much more solitary affairs. Heading home from DTD having lost £100 playing in one of there events doesn"t come close to getting knocked out of an APAT event. One involves a long drive home thinking what I did wrong or what a bad beat i"ve just had. The other involves heading to the bar to see Ger, Scouse, Dan Owston, Paul McGuiness, Carl Lybert, Paul Pitchford, Jo Sharp, Debbie Kimm, Grant Speirs, JP Round, Jaxie, James Barber, the whole APAT crew, all the BCPC crew, the long suffering Mrs O etc etc etc etc etc etc and having a great night.
You left out Surinder Sunar. ;D
Who"s he?! :)
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It"s a great debate and that"s one of the reasons I love APAT best of all! You talk and we listen...and then we tell you why we"re doing it our way! :D Joking of course, this level of feedback is great and APAT was built on putting together an excellent tour, then taking your feedback on board to make it even better.
The debate centres on the following (I may miss stuff here) and my thoughts are as follows:-
- The £75 buy in.
I like this price point and am proud that APAT offers its members a poker experience better than they might receive at events at many multiples of our buy in, while still being the entry point in the market. We could up the average National price point to £100, but then we wouldn"t be offering the entry level multi table, multi day tournament - and that is part of what APAT is about. We"ve certainly offered events at higher price points to try and keep something in the schedule for those whose game has grown beyond APAT. We have done so to be inclusive for members, as opposed to looking to challenge DTD, the UKIPT or GUKPT.
- Sky Tour.
Love this to pieces. Remember it was Tighty and I who set that up and it is a compliment to APAT that established brands like Sky and Virgin in the past, have copied the APAT model - it means far more choice for you guys (although not at a cost to your participation in APAT events we would hope). The challenge for APAT is to stay ahead of the pack, and we have a good record of innovating and doing this. I"m looking forward to next season"s schedule discussions already, because there is at least one initiative on the table that will be a real WOW :)
- Away events.
As Tighty wrote, this is all about stretching the brand. This is important for strategic / commercial reasons and there will always be one or two of these events in the schedule. To see any UK or Irish APAT members travel to them is great, but its not really what they are about. Lots will tell you they are great weekends away however! Personally I wouldn"t like to see them have a different buy in to the other National events in our schedule despite the good points made.
- Schedule
As Tighty also wrote, we had some odd scheduling difficulties in pulling Season 5 together and have ended up with a rather lop sided second half. This is something we are going to review and I"ve already suggested to Tighty that we review the Pro-Am tournament versus an Amateur National, and the Czech Republic as the location of the Europeans versus a UK venue. We don"t like to change things, but you guys are talking and it is our job to listen. I"ve also asked Tighty to look at how exciting we could make a three day European festival, with two day 1"s and a side event on the Friday, Saturday and Sunday - a mini WCOAP if you like. Not saying that the above changes will definitely happen, but they are being looked at.
- Buy In format.
You will always be able to buy in directly with APAT. This is an advantage we offer over some of the other competing poker tours. It"s important to support our sponsor, but at the end of the day APAT's core focus is our live product and we will not make you satellite in if you do not want to. You may need to set up an account with our sponsor, but you will be able to buy in direct. That"s important.
- "It was a chance to play a "champagne tournament at a lemonade price""
Thank you Colin McCarty, because that"s as good a definition of what APAT offers as I"ve seen for a long time. ;)
Whatever the other tours offer, I don"t believe anybody will consistently give you the community driven, registration free, high quality format, added value tournaments that APAT do.
Thanks for your support and keep the feedback coming!
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Top post!
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I sometimes play other events where the buy-ins are higher but they are much more solitary affairs. Heading home from DTD having lost £100 playing in one of there events doesn"t come close to getting knocked out of an APAT event. One involves a long drive home thinking what I did wrong or what a bad beat i"ve just had. The other involves heading to the bar to see Ger, Scouse, Dan Owston, Paul McGuiness, Carl Lybert, Paul Pitchford, Jo Sharp, Debbie Kimm, Grant Speirs, JP Round, Jaxie, James Barber, the whole APAT crew, all the BCPC crew, the long suffering Mrs O etc etc etc etc etc etc and having a great night.
And wheres the Stockton Massive?? :"(
Knew as soon as i started typing the list i"d get someone complaining they weren"t on it. Sorry Phil to reduce you to an etc!
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i think Des sugestion of three day European festival in Amsterdam, with two day 1"s and a side event on the Friday, Saturday and Sunday - a mini WCOAP sounds great
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i think Des sugestion of three day European festival in Amsterdam, with two day 1"s and a side event on the Friday, Saturday and Sunday - a mini WCOAP sounds great
I"d be up for it but I understand that the poker/gambling scene in the Netherlands is government owned and, hence, crappy...but I"d be happy to do some research if you have any suggestions for venues.
EDIT: Looks like the main option is Holland Casino - Amsterdam...but the site is in Dutch. Looks like they do hold poker tournaments (although there is no mention of size/capacity).
Now the other criteria come into play.
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Lets slow down please. Particularly in suggesting another European venue for this event. Let"s hear what people think first.
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i think Des sugestion of three day European festival in Amsterdam, with two day 1"s and a side event on the Friday, Saturday and Sunday - a mini WCOAP sounds great
I"d be up for it but I understand that the poker/gambling scene in the Netherlands is government owned and, hence, crappy...but I"d be happy to do some research if you have any suggestions for venues.
who said anything about poker ;)
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Lets slow down please. Particularly in suggesting another European venue for this event. Let"s hear what people think first.
I think Amsterdam needs some serious research - checking flights, don"t thank me I will take one for the team.
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Lets slow down please. Particularly in suggesting another European venue for this event. Let"s hear what people think first.
I think Amsterdam needs some serious research - checking flights, don"t thank me I will take one for the team.
cant let you go alone on this 1 you may need some help someone needs to watch your back with all them bikes
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Lets slow down please. Particularly in suggesting another European venue for this event. Let"s hear what people think first.
Any venue which requires flights (or other such significant travel cost) will preclude a huge swathe of the APAT regulars.... whether it be eastern Europe or Amsterdam.
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EDIT: Looks like the main option is Holland Casino - Amsterdam...but the site is in Dutch. Looks like they do hold poker tournaments (although there is no mention of size/capacity).
I"ve been there, albeit a while ago. They had a dress code that precludes most of APAT, but it"s a decent size place.
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Save your time on researching Amsterdam
Been there, done that. Looking into Netherlands poker I mean
We wanted to hold a European event there in s3, spoke to Holland Casinos, its a complete non-starter due to government ownership, and rules preventing live tournaments being sponsored by anything connected with an online room
the rest of the stuff, give me a little time to see what we can do
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Save your time on researching Amsterdam -- LOL I have it to do - it is now a mission
Been there, done that. Looking into Netherlands poker I mean - You seen me play poker - nuff said
We wanted to hold a European event there in s3, spoke to Holland Casinos, its a complete non-starter due to government ownership, and rules preventing live tournaments being sponsored by anything connected with an online room Need to have a word with the adjacent establishments anyway - just for completness
the rest of the stuff, give me a little time to see what we can do - OK will extend the visit to neighbouring countires in the interests of completeness - Al you got my back ;D
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Lets slow down please. Particularly in suggesting another European venue for this event. Let"s hear what people think first.
We"re not suggesting replacing DTD...heaven forbid.
Rather adding an extended event to the calendar....but some people have already made some valid points against it already.
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Lets slow down please. Particularly in suggesting another European venue for this event. Let"s hear what people think first.
Any venue which requires flights (or other such significant travel cost) will preclude a huge swathe of the APAT regulars.... whether it be eastern Europe or Amsterdam.
We did alright in Spain, but as an ADDITION to the tour (not replacing WCOAP) it might have a great deal of appeal to our European brothers.
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Lets slow down please. Particularly in suggesting another European venue for this event. Let"s hear what people think first.
Any venue which requires flights (or other such significant travel cost) will preclude a huge swathe of the APAT regulars.... whether it be eastern Europe or Amsterdam.
We did alright in Spain, ...
How many people went to Spain?
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How many people went to Spain?
As I recall it was 25....possibly a few more.
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How many people went to Spain?
As I recall it was 25....possibly a few more.
I saw double that most of the time ;D
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Lets slow down please. Particularly in suggesting another European venue for this event. Let"s hear what people think first.
I think Amsterdam needs some serious research - checking flights, don"t thank me I will take one for the team.
As chief scout, i feel it is my duty to accompany you Ger!!
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Lets slow down please. Particularly in suggesting another European venue for this event. Let"s hear what people think first.
I think Amsterdam needs some serious research - checking flights, don"t thank me I will take one for the team.
As chief scout, i feel it is my duty to accompany you Ger!!
overnight boat from newcastle, hell yea !!
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EDIT: Looks like the main option is Holland Casino - Amsterdam...but the site is in Dutch. Looks like they do hold poker tournaments (although there is no mention of size/capacity).
I"ve been there, albeit a while ago. They had a dress code that precludes most of APAT, but it"s a decent size place.
What does that mean? If there is a requirement to wear a cowboy hat, I can only think of one player who is already prepared.
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I think Yorkshire should be your new overseas venue as since APAT has never been. I believe there is a moat that goes all around to keep rest of Briton out :D
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I think Yorkshire should be your new overseas venue as since APAT has never been. I believe there is a moat that goes all around to keep rest of Briton out :D
Briton??? :o
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I think Yorkshire should be your new overseas venue as since APAT has never been. I believe there is a moat that goes all around to keep rest of Briton out :D
I think you mis-interpreted....the moat is intended to keep you lot IN!
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i agree that APATs place in the market is for aspiring amateurs looking for a good game at competative prices however things have changed. the worlds at nottingham were a great success but for the rest of the year there are no events left for those APAT regulars looking for a good game which kind of also ties in with the other thread about easy travel access to venues. i personally bookeded leave in advance on all APAT weekends - unfortunately Cork not easily accessable; Luton not possible unless u are part of a forum; vegas- bit far; london in december 250 pound buy-in; jan prague................
SO where has the cheap buyin game for the APAT regular gone?????????????/
This subject has already been raised on the "THE OFFICIAL: APAT SEASON 6 - Discussion..." thread. ;D
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Regarding the overseas events I think they need reconsidering. As said by someone else, locals play them because its there and don"t become regulars so should the games be focused more towards the UK? As for Las Vegas... What are APAT hoping to achieve with this? Yes, I would love to be going but i"m sure no LV locals will be rushing to the UK due to lack of games in their area!
This
It"s about trying to get the medals for me as the missus gets the money anyhow
It is not about the Overseas players becoming regulars. We don"t expect many to be coming over to the UK for events. A few do, same for UK players going over to Europe
Same for Vegas, it"s about growing APAT's reach, membership base and long term aspirations.
The task for the organiser is to satisfy the requirements of the core UK player base, and grow the APAT concept/brand too
Over 5 seasons, we do that I think!
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Lets slow down please. Particularly in suggesting another European venue for this event. Let"s hear what people think first.
I think Amsterdam needs some serious research - checking flights, don"t thank me I will take one for the team.
why not have an International Waters Championship if Amsterdam is a non starter. We could all get on the boat to Holland and as long as enough people brought packs of cards we could hold our own tourney and keep going back and forwards until we have a winner.