PLO Hand vs reg

[hi_am_chris]

This hand kinda annoyed me at the time, i really can"t decide whether i shud just sigh/call it off or fold on the river once villain 2 folds.

A bit of history, i have 690 hands on Panda and he is playing 35/11. Would say he is definitely not one of the worst players in the plo games on Party (didn"t have a hud on during this hand).

There was a hand played on a different table earlier in the session where he trippled barrelled into my set on a draw heavy flop. I can"t decide whether he is bluff shoving the river or betting his two pair for value.

I guess i can raise the flop but i have a pretty crappy fd.

http://www.holdemmanager.net
PL Omaha $0.10(BB) Replayer Game#12211830572

sibesc10 ($3.76)
Qbeer79 ($34.33)
Aromator ($21.66)
PLO_Panda ($7.61)
ppOlof ($13.30)
chrishiam ($14.12)

sibesc10 posts (SB) $0.05
Qbeer79 posts (BB) $0.10

Dealt to chrishiam        
fold,
PLO_Panda raises to $0.35
fold,
chrishiam calls $0.35
sibesc10 calls $0.30
fold,
FLOP ($1.15)      
sibesc10 checks
PLO_Panda bets $1.10
chrishiam calls $1.10
sibesc10 folds
TURN ($3.35)        
PLO_Panda bets $2.39
chrishiam calls $2.39
RIVER ($8.13)          
PLO_Panda bets $3.77 (AI)
chrishiam calls $3.77
chrishiam shows        
(Pre 52%, Flop 61.8%, Turn 67.5%)

PLO_Panda shows        
(Pre 48%, Flop 38.2%, Turn 32.5%)

chrishiam wins $14.89

Main Hand

http://www.holdemmanager.net
PL Omaha $0.10(BB) Replayer Game#12212762461

chrishiam ($21.50)
PLO_Panda ($10.43)
Radamessi ($23.52)
MollyMoo77 ($12.40)
FishFight ($22.19)

chrishiam posts (SB) $0.05
PLO_Panda posts (BB) $0.10

Dealt to chrishiam        
Radamessi calls $0.10
fold,
FishFight calls $0.10
chrishiam calls $0.05
PLO_Panda checks
FLOP ($0.40)  Td    
chrishiam checks
PLO_Panda bets $0.38
Radamessi calls $0.38
FishFight folds
chrishiam calls $0.38
TURN ($1.54)  Td      
chrishiam checks
PLO_Panda bets $1.47
Radamessi calls $1.47
chrishiam calls $1.47
RIVER ($5.95)  Td        
chrishiam checks
PLO_Panda bets $5.66
Radamessi folds
chrishiam ...

[Paulie_D]

Fold pre

[hi_am_chris]

as played

[Paulie_D]

as played

Fold.

A lousy two pair isn"t going to take this down I feel.

[AAroddersAA]

First of all the HUD should be turned on. I have no idea why people turn these off.

Based on what we have here which is not a lot I am viewing my opponent as capable. I do like the way he played the pervious hand a lot more than I like how you played it tbh. The only thing I would say is that he should have check called the river if he is happy to put all his money in as it is very unlikely anything he beats folds. You need to be getting it in on the flop or at least the turn btw.

Anyway the hand in question. I probably won"t fold that preflop. The 3 is a bad card but for we have a hand with some potential. I am happy to call.

The flop is not bad for us as we have a draw to the nuts and blockers for the flush draw which might even be good if it hit"s. His bet can mean a lot of things here. A full pot bet usually means a strong hand. I think he has at least two pair, maybe even a set. But he can also have the NFD or some kind of str8 draw. I don"t really like the caller, who I think could be drawing and the NFD is a decent part of his range as you are partly blocking the staright draw, but probably peel one off to try and make the nuts as the BB has shown his potential to be slightly spewy in the previous hand. This could be bad though.

The turn is really no help at all although does give us a little full house draw. Can"t see how two pair is good unless they are both drawing of course, which is not impossible. He bets big again. I definitely think he has a big hand here, bets this big OTT are usually strong. I think the caller is drawing and could be blocking you draw and have the NFD as well. You are in bad shape here again their ranges. I would be folding the turn. I don"t think you are ever getting much off the other big stack the way this has played out. He will fold if he misses and is likely to have you crushed if he hits.

You miss everything on the river. His bet may be over valuing a hand like a better two pair but you can really only beat a bluff and this does not look like a bluff. NO draws have hit but he has shown strength since the flop I would just believe him and fold.

Does this make sense? Paulie, are you able to post your logic up mate? Your PLO game is good so would like to see your thought patterns on each street.

[Paulie_D]

In the first hand, as I said, I fold pre..in fact I fold both pre but that"s neither here nor there in this case.

In the first hand, I"m never getting away from the flopped set...so on to the main hand.

We flop really well for our hand and I would have led out here...but we didn"t.

After that, I would have re-popped the flop bet..we are monster here (draw-wise)...but again we didn"t.

After that, it keeps getting worse, the turn and river do us no favours...and the fact remains he had basically potted every street.

The AVERAGE winning hand is PLO is trips/set and we have a crappy two pair.

Our hand is basically a bluff catcher...and he doesn"t have to have much to beat us.

As played, I fold the river but I re-iterate, I would be looking to pressure here on the flop and/or turn due to our outs but we didn"t and that"s where we are.

[hi_am_chris]

Just bout to read your comments rodders, with regards to the first hand I know it"s a fold (it was a pretty horrible call), can"t really defend it, tbh still happy calling the flop but agree if I don"t get it in on the flop it should have gone in on the turn. The second hand yes it"s a bluff catcher but all the draws did miss and the reason I post the first hand is that he"s prepared to triple barrell a big draw.

I can post hands I played well but I don"t learn anything from them. Is my low fd enuff to go with the straight draw to get aggressive on the flop? Just worried of I get aggressive on the flop I could play too big a pot wen I"m going to make too many second best hands.

[AAroddersAA]

Just bout to read your comments rodders, with regards to the first hand I know it"s a fold (it was a pretty horrible call), can"t really defend it, tbh still happy calling the flop but agree if I don"t get it in on the flop it should have gone in on the turn. The second hand yes it"s a bluff catcher but all the draws did miss and the reason I post the first hand is that he"s prepared to triple barrell a big draw.

I can post hands I played well but I don"t learn anything from them. Is my low fd enuff to go with the straight draw to get aggressive on the flop? Just worried of I get aggressive on the flop I could play too big a pot wen I"m going to make too many second best hands.

Chris, I agree with that entirely mate. There is no point at all in posting hands you play well, the whole point is to discuss the parts where you think you might have gone wrong and you also get an idea into how people think in those spots. You sometimes need to have a thick skin as you will get torn to pieces sometimes but that is what you want.

fwiw I don"t think the flush draw is enough to go with it and get it in on the flop because of the caller and the high likelihood he has a better flush draw but I may be wrong on this. If we were playing one opponent I would be more inclined to do just that. He also has a big stack and we are dealing with reverse implied odds here imo.

[Marty719]

Hand 1:  Been said before but def fold pre.  We r oop w/ a non-nut suit and a pair that makes bad sets.  As played, just put it in ott, as there are bad rivers which will prevent us getting max value, and with villains spr, he is priced in with his entire range.

Hand 2:  We can complete pre without a problem, but obv folding to a raise.  As long as we are aware of our hands vulnerabilities and act/react accordingly, then we can certainly play this profitably.  Would be more likely to donk flop HU, but multi-way I think c/c is a better line, as there are a lot of dominating draws which our hand plays badly against.  Turn is a fold tho imo.  PLO_Panda"s range is super-strong when he leads full pot into 2 players ott when both have called flop.  We have to assume Radamessi raises the top of his value range for protection (and value obv) on the flop or turn, so a large part of his range will be dominating draws.  Add to this the fact that we only have 3 clean outs to the nuts and it looks even less appealing.

Edit: Just read over some of the other responses.  I disagree w/ Paulie that we shud be raising flop.  Our hand plays badly vs 2 opponents, and we are 200x deep.  Raising flop would be spew.

[dwh103]

Fold, pre, flop, turn and river (and fold pre in hand 1 ofc). You could argue you could call one off on the flop given you"re closing the action, but with just 3 clean outs OOP I wouldn"t bother.

Completing pre is a massive leak, simply for the reverse-implied odds. You will not show a profit long term trying to play a non-nutty hand out of position, even in small stakes PLO.

Whilst Panda has shown aggro tendencies, the previous example shows him barreling 2 pair + FD which turns 3 pair + FD. His river barrel sucks but if you have to include similar hand strength in Hand 2 then you"re in rubbish shape against his donking-into-3 players range. No evidence to suggest he"s randomly spewing with worse.

[hi_am_chris]

Cheers for the replys, forgot to mention yest to rodders that i didn"t have a hud up because i have been having trouble getting it to work perfectly on the Party Poker network, wasn"t by choice

[I Q8Holds I]

FoldPre. If you think he is aggro enough and he will barrell turn with draw 2pr you can call turn. If hes a rock the turn is a fold as your not getting price to hit house and have no implied odds. But if he is a "good player" he is never value betting 2pr on the river.


Hand 2 Check raise or fold flop you dont have enough equity to take on what there hand ranges should be 3 handed. Where as your equity increases alot when HU.