Author Topic: The Mental Game of Poker  (Read 4160 times)

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VBlue

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The Mental Game of Poker
« on: November 08, 2012, 14:09:18 PM »
I am re-reading The Mental Game of Poker and setting aside a couple fo hours each week to making notes and looking to apply the new knowledge to my game.

If anyone is up for joining this thread, I"ll keep it going as long as there is interest. I will post the notes I have taken for discussion and every week I hope to move it on a step.

We"ll have the whole thing cracked in no time.

AAroddersAA

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Re: The Mental Game of Poker
« Reply #1 on: November 08, 2012, 19:40:13 PM »
I will certainly be following this, good thread.

Maybe I actually need to get around to reading the book but I pretty much agree with almost all of that you said above. What do you do about it though? Or do I really need to read the book?

I would say though things like tilt most definitely do happen for totally illogical reasons. What reason do you think it happens for?

Keep up the good work on these threads.
-----------------------------

Still trying to think of something amusing to write in this bit.

VBlue

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Re: The Mental Game of Poker
« Reply #2 on: November 08, 2012, 22:26:59 PM »
All in good time Rodders.

I aim to use this thread and an identical posting on another forum to work through my own Mental Game along with anyone else who wishes to join me.

It would be great if you would continue to follow and we can add a few more interested parties.

I would take it as read that if Jared says tilt happens for predictable reasons, then it does.  We will come on to why as we work through the book.

Swinebag

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Re: The Mental Game of Poker
« Reply #3 on: November 09, 2012, 00:10:41 AM »


Is anyone concerned that this is just plagiarism and I could be over-stepping the mark reproducing so much of the book material?



I was going to post that this seemed pretty blatant plagiarism, but you have pre-empted the question.

Not sure how the mods/Des will feel about this.

Back to the topic: I started reading the book in January but have not finished it. I agree that mental game is pretty important, but I felt that this book tries to overcomplicate things. If people do have mental game frailties it seemed that the style of the book would go over the heads of the exact people that are targeted by the book. I don"t mean to connect intelligence with mental game frailties (though I think that is what it may sound like). It is just that the sort of person who is a mental game fish is simply not going to bother reading this book. They may recognise a bit of themselves in the book but the cures that are pretty straightforward IMO go into so much detail that you develop more mental game frailties trying to break them down. In short, I felt the book rambled on a bit ( a bit like this post LOL!)

I feel I have a pretty decent mental game. I would list it as one of my strengths (I nearly aced the mental game fish test). One thing that I do consider a weakness is how poorly I tend to play after a decent win. I have thought about this a lot and feel that the deep root to the problem is a brief hatred of money that I have after a win. It may be down to guilt or a feeling that I am playing with other people"s money so I don"t need to focus as much. It only lasts a few days now and I am able to assess when I am playing my best game (Whatever that is) and can separate results from this assessment. I still think I will drift but by acknowledging it, I feel I am on the road to recovery ;D
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VBlue

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Re: The Mental Game of Poker
« Reply #4 on: November 09, 2012, 09:28:02 AM »
On reflection I have removed the posts as it is clearly just plagiarism and making Jared"s content available in this way is probably ill advised.

Swinebag - the first point you make I disagree with.  I cannot see that anyone who would find the content of the book to high-brow would pay so much for a learning text in the first place.  It is very well-written, easy to follow, and full of practical advice.  If you think it is over-complicating things I believe you have misunderstood, or perhaps you feel the scale of the work involved is too much to bother with - which is completely fine if you have no desire to put the work in.

I don"t see anywhere where Jared rambles on and I wouldn"t have thought that your knowledge in the field is on anything even close to the scale of Jared"s so to be able to say that the cures are pretty straightforward in your opinion is a bit of a throwaway remark.

Professional sports people and teams at the very highest level, Tiger Woods is the example Jared used in how golf as a sport changed it"s view of how to be competitve (players looking at fitness and mental game to create an edge), so it stands to reason that everyone could benefit from working on their mental game.  New problems reveal themselves ongoing to, so, much like poker itself, it is never "solved".

In my opinion, you cannot assess whether you have a pretty good mental game, without actually assessing it.  Otherwise it is just as throw away as the lad who wins a £5 game in the pub declaring his status in the game.  When Jared list the main indicators of a mental game fish, it is certainly not a "test" to see if you are one or not.

It is good that you have identifed a weakness and started to unveil the underlying reason for it, something which Jared talks about a lot.  As an example, I raised two concerns with Jared which on the face of it seem obvious, but it is important to dig a little deeper:

1) I felt that I was not focusing when playing poker being too easily distracted - browsing, social networking, watching TV, talking to people in the room, etc.
2) I have had a go at making improvement in my game but lacked a consistent approach.

Jared asked:

1) What are your overall goals with poker?
2) What"s the reason your motivated by these poker goals? (Basically the why you want to achieve them.)
3) Why are you motivated to develop a consistent approach to learning?
4) Why are you motivated to eliminate distractions while playing?
5) What do you want to get out of poker, and from doing this extra work to improve?

I then replied with some goals, but what Jared picked up on as being most useful was that I had uncovered a desire to be productive with my time and feel satisfied that I"ve used it productively and to have accomplishments in poker that are entirely in my control.

You may not see the significance of undertstanding that, but to me it has had an effect and helps me to review those senitments before each session.

Jared"s advice:

Pulling these out aren"t going to blow your mind, but when it comes to eliminating distractions they"re critical. Now when you notice your mind drifting, Inject Goals, like you would Inject Logic, as a means of regaining control of your state of mind.

To close this post - the Mental Game field is largely misunderstood and players have traditionally followed some fairly poor available advice.  There is quite probably nobody better qualified due to the training and hours Jared has put in to this field.  To create a unique edge in the game, mental game becomes an essential element of the most successful players and is as much of a game as the game of poker itself.

Jon MW

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Re: The Mental Game of Poker
« Reply #5 on: November 09, 2012, 09:59:58 AM »

... but I felt that this book tries to overcomplicate things. If people do have mental game frailties it seemed that the style of the book would go over the heads of the exact people that are targeted by the book. I don"t mean to connect intelligence with mental game frailties (though I think that is what it may sound like). It is just that the sort of person who is a mental game fish is simply not going to bother reading this book. They may recognise a bit of themselves in the book but the cures that are pretty straightforward IMO go into so much detail that you develop more mental game frailties trying to break them down. In short, I felt the book rambled on a bit ( a bit like this post LOL!)
...


I tend to agree with this - I think you might be over-selling it a bit VBlue from what I"ve read so far

don"t go on tilt
don"t get distracted
set and monitor goals

covers about 90% of the content in <1% of the space

I use mental game processes in various things like poker, chess and swimming so I think it"s important but I think you should be careful about falling for the hype around it. However good you get at this side of things it"s never going to make up for deficiencies in maths and people reading skills for example.
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VBlue

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Re: The Mental Game of Poker
« Reply #6 on: November 09, 2012, 10:58:11 AM »
Again, I refer back to other sports Jon.  I honestly believe that much of the resistance or negativity comes from a lack of understanding.  I don"t believe Jared is hype at all.  In fact, he has proven results and some excellent testimonials from some very succesful players who believe his work to be integral to their successes.

Don"t go on tilt.  If it was really as easy as just saying that why would anyone ever tilt?  Just tell yourself not to and don"t do it - problem solved?  I don"t think so.

Jared does not say anywhere that mental game makes up for any deficiencies elsewhere.  He treats mental game as a separate area that allows players to create an edge in a game where edges have become very thin.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2012, 11:29:42 AM by VBlue »

Chipaccrual

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Re: The Mental Game of Poker
« Reply #7 on: November 09, 2012, 11:54:21 AM »
This thread is just mental.   ;D

Have just downloaded a copy onto my generic e-reader device.  Off on holiday next week, so should make for a good read, will offer feedback on my return.

Des

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Re: The Mental Game of Poker
« Reply #8 on: November 09, 2012, 13:55:29 PM »

This thread is just mental.   ;D

Have just downloaded a copy onto my generic e-reader device.  Off on holiday next week, so should make for a good read, will offer feedback on my return.


Gee man, take a proper break will you!
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Chipaccrual

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Re: The Mental Game of Poker
« Reply #9 on: November 09, 2012, 14:12:38 PM »


This thread is just mental.   ;D

Have just downloaded a copy onto my generic e-reader device.  Off on holiday next week, so should make for a good read, will offer feedback on my return.


Gee man, take a proper break will you!


LOL, if I did seven days of nothing, it would be more like rehab than a holiday.   ;D

VBlue

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Re: The Mental Game of Poker
« Reply #10 on: November 15, 2012, 09:29:55 AM »
I played a few MTTs last night - a freeroll I qualify for with an iPops Main Event seat for 1st and other iPops events for 2nd-4th.  I also played a small $1k GP I won a couple of weeks ago and have other cashes in and the daily $3k GP and $5k GP.

I uncovered a mental game mistake I made last night and believe that had I heeded some advice, or been alert enough to remember it, I could have made an OK night (from ROI point of view) into a great night from a $ point of view.

I like playing 4 tables as I want to increase volume and I managed this pretty welll all night.

It was when I got to the business end - last 27 in the $5k and took the chip lead and then hung around the top 5 spots.  It was close to midnight and 4.5 hours in to my session.  Spots started to dry up, hole cards were mainly poor, and aggression was being ramped up by others.  I lost focus, started to find some different tunes online I wanted to listen to, engaged in a little chat with a railer on Facebook, and stopped concentrating and allowed some frustration to tilt me a little - I ended up bluffing my stack off in 12th with 22 on a 567 board after villain had check-called the flop and I shoved turn.  He had a set of 6s.

I think it was at this point that I needed to do something Jared Tendler calls Injecting Goals - where I took just a minute or two to look again at my Session Goals and my Short Term & Longer Term Goals to refocus me on the game.

Very annoyed with myself as I had my eyes on a nearly $1k payday and ended up nearer $70 returned.

I think I am going to print out some reminders and stick them near my laptop so I can learn from this and try to savalage the situation in future when I feel tired, lose focus, and my concentration wanes.

VBlue

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Re: The Mental Game of Poker
« Reply #11 on: January 02, 2013, 14:49:35 PM »
To revive this thread, I am going to be working on getting through The Mental Game of Poker by the end of June 2013.  There is just so much interesting stuff to discuss and there have been some great contributions on this forum so far.

I plan to put in some time every fortnight and work my way through the eight chapters.  It is not necessary to read the book chronologically, so I will focus on my own immediate issues. 

We did talk in the other thread I started about the Process Model.  I may branch of into seperate threads if I feel a particular subject calls for it and use this one to hold the flow together.  Depends if people thinks that makes sense or whether I should keep everything here.

I have a blog to finish, called "I Wish" by the end of this week and another coaching session to catch up on.  I should be ready to sit down for a couple of hours with TMGOP book again next week.

GL in 2013 all.

VBlue

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Re: The Mental Game of Poker
« Reply #12 on: January 03, 2013, 14:14:26 PM »
Very apt post on this subject.  Just a "bonus material" type link - http://jaredtendlerpoker.com/blog/making-new-years-resolutions-stick/

VBlue

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Re: The Mental Game of Poker
« Reply #13 on: January 13, 2013, 19:38:52 PM »
OK - I"m going to have a go at getting this thread to work in the way I set out on Page 1.  The difficulty is that there is sooooo much good stuff in each chapter, on each page, that it hard to summarise, but also I do not want to just plagiarise the whole text.

The process I go through when working on things like this in my game is to read the chapter, then go back through it taking notes, and then I work from those notes working concepts into my game.  Sounds a little long-winded but it works for me.

Chapter One

Is an Introduction to Mental Game.  To sum it up in the most succinct way I can - mental game is much like your poker game.  You can work on your deficiencies if you can address what they are and get the right information.  Luckily for us, Jared Tendler & Barry Carter are the right information.  I will quote two lines from this opening chapter which illustrate this point and an other big message in the opening chapter:

"Tilt, fear, motivation, and confidence do not happen for random, illogical, or irrational reasons.  If you think that you simply lack the skill to see how it"s predictable and rational".

"Actions, thoughts, and emotions lead you to play your best or worst." - I will come on to this second message further in the next chapter where we discuss something called The Process Model.

There is a list of Mental Game fish traits - thankfully I don"t do any of these (any more).  A classic mistake would be "reading a poker book cover to cover and think you know everything in it".  A classic tilt "get frustrated when a bad player plays badly and even educate them as to why they are bad".

There is also a dispelling of myths, which I think many people will have believed at some point, such as "emotions are a problem and need to be blocked out at all times", or "you should always quit if you think you are about to tilt".

The close is a "How To Use This Book".  Of course, it takes time to achieve mental game growth so you must work systematically and methodically as I have set out to do ITT.  Look at the quick fix smaller issues first so you can make some progress quickly, then work through most cost, most frequent, and those that cause the most emotional turmoil.  The most important tip I took was to do what works; we are all different.

I"ll be back in a week or two with the first few pieces of work we can do to improve our mental game:

The Adult Learning Model - how we learn new skills to a competent level
Inchworm - an approach to improving our poker game
The Process Model - the stages we follow pre-game, in-game, and post-game

Of course, anyone who wants to follow this journey should buy the book or get the audio free from Jared"s website will the offer remains.

Please join in now with any comments, queries, or questions.