Live DTD 6M DS Hand

[Chipaccrual]

Interesting hand from the weekend.

Blinds are 300/600/75

BB (Me) - Playing approx 85k
SB - Plaing approx 50k

Mid position raises to 1500, SB calls.

I look down at   and raise it to 5.3k (Initial raiser has done that a lot, SB has folded to pressure in some hands)

MP folds, SB calls.

Flop comes down      

SB checks, I bet out 7.4k

SB thinks for a bit, is counting chips, then raises to 23k


At this point I ask how much behind, and get told it"s another 22k roughly


This could be another simple "What would you do ?" thread, but I"m kinda guessing I know what most of the answers will be here (do let me know anyway), but I"m more interested in thoughts around should I be saying anything here ?

Can I win the hand without probably having to hit my flush ?

We are five handed at the table.  The SB lost around 20k a couple of orbits back when having a betting battle with his SB.  Betting went something like 2k, 4.5k, 8k, 23k, allin, on a JJ6 flop, at which point he folded.

Do I think I can get him to fold here ?  I don"t really do speech play, but would that sway his decision if I did make a move ?

Interested in the more imaginative suggestions here.  Can I call ?  (Hadn"t really thought that was an option)

[deanp27]

Not a huge fan of pre but I suppose at 6max you can get more aggro if you think the OR is going to fold, do think the 3bet is rather chunky but having said that it didn"t deter the SB.

As played you have to cram I think. There is a small chance he is messing about and will fold and I don"t think calling to fold turn unimproved is that much of an option anyway.

Don"t really go in for speech play that much and think its overrated unless you have picked up a potential advantage that the person will give something away. You have diamonds plus Tens as outs if he has AJ/AQ and have tens as chop outs vs AT and KT.

[Sillbags]

Ugly spot mate. At first glance I liked the cbet and sizing, but is checking behind here bad? I guess we don"t expect to get raised too often as this flop should hit our range pretty well, so cbet is prob fine. Can"t see villain often showing up with a set here, although is possible. More likely 2 pair hands like AQ, AJ, QJ, or KT for made straight. Even if we are generous and give him sets, 2 pair, straight and a few flush draw combos, we still have 40% equity, so I feel that we can"t be folding here. We will also be getting over 3-1 on the turn when he shoves, so maybe we should just pile here, although don"t think he"s ever folding  

[AMRN]

If he"s invested 28.3k (5.3k pre, and a post flop raise to 23k), there is no way I can ever imagine he would fold leaving 22k behind. Speech play, or any other stuff, is somewhat irrelevant - we have to assume he"s never folding now.

As for your choice, having found yourself in spot (I don"t like the way you got to this spot btw), surely you can"t contemplate a fold?  It plays itself from here - you jam, he calls....

The reason I don"t like the way we got to this spot.... I can understand the re-raise pre given your comment that the MP player has raised a lot of hands.... But, I hate to play a bloated pot out of position with a hand that could very easily be dominated if we get a caller (ok in this situation, the MP folded and the SB called, meaning we are now playing the bloated pot in position). 

When we"ve flopped such a huge draw, do we need to semi-bluff?.... given that we have position, is this perhaps a spot to check behind for pot control, and also to disguise our hand to some degree if we hit on the turn?  By making the semi bluff, we open it up for the check/raise, and now have to play the draw for most of our stack.

What do we put the SB on prior to us making the bet on the flop?  He"s playing out of position, but has called the original MP raise, and has called our re-raise, yet you already noted that he folds under pressure. I think it"s a reasonable assumption that the flop has smacked him fairly hard, and for that reason, I advocate checking behind on the flop.

[mporter123]

I like pre. Would make it a teensy bit smaller then 5.5K or something similar on the flop.

As played, even given previous history, he can surely never be folding now given sizing and stack sizes. Yes, we have equity but do we really want to get in 80bb"s in a spot like this? Given his sizing, I would fold here. I also think making it slightly smaller pre and on the flop makes the decision easier.

I am not sure about checking back the flop, guess its bad to bet fold away so much equity. Meh will wait to see what others think.

 

[AMRN]

I am not sure about checking back the flop, guess its bad to bet fold away so much equity. Meh will wait to see what others think. 

We have 12 clean outs to the nuts!  Bet folding with almost 50% equity is surely bad. If we aren"t prepared to get it in, we shouldn"t be betting the flop and opening it up to a check/raise to which we plan to fold.  

[TheSnapper]

Mp"s stack size is important info here but I assume not <50k

Not sure about the 3b preflop, would love it if we were a little shallower and we threatened  mp and sb"s stack, 80+ bb"s  deep we are more likely to be called and especially so if mp has a 100+ bb stack.

If the mp player is our mark for chipping up at the table then it"s also ok as he has position on us 4 times per orbit so we have less scope for better spots versus this player. We likely have enough fold equity preflop to turn an instant profit, our K is a blocker to lots of continuing hands and we are suited which offers some post flop potential.

Flop: We flop so much equity here and have at least 43% versus the tightest of ranges. But that equity is nearly halved when we miss the turn.  Both our draws are to the nuts, usually on flops like this I"m committed to the hand with no plan to fold. Is that a leak?

That being true and given the fact that any Ten or Diamond may allow sb to fold, we should get the chips in now when we have our max equity. So to answer your question "can we call" I think no. Another reason to raise the flop is fold equity, on the face of it we should not have fold equity but given previous read on sb, we may.

Not sure if you had a plan when you cbet but if not you really should consider how you will proceed when sb check calls or check raises.

[Swinebag]

bot of an ugly spot to be playing a 160ish BB pot but I"m going all the way with this one. You have just flopped so big and villain has half his stack in the middle so just ship it in. Calling isn"t going to achieve anything: you may get a fold if you hit on the turn and would probably have to fold if you missed.

Folding isn"t too terrible as it preserves your rather nice stack but busting the villain is much more fun

[Erimus]

Had a similar spot in Bolton at the Gukpt, every time I think of that hand I still believe I played it correctly, I was still some way from the big money, ( had min cashed for now), so it was chip up and give myself a chance to win the tournament or fold and wait for a better spot, ie 3 bet original raiser, then flopped nut flush draw

Would a better spot ever come up ?, that we will never know, obviously lost the hand but gave myself the best chance of winning it at the time.

As played the flop is the best you could ask for other than flopping trips or better, you still have a few left if you lose, win the hand and I would imagine you give yourself a better chance of making a decent cash, lose the hand win the next few flips and you back in it, simples.

As for speech play, just say unlucky mate when you outdraw him or sigh nh if you do not.

[Swinebag]

Better still try "they were suited" when you get there