$2.50 180 man

[mylesfdo]

Call pre
fold flop

^^^^^exactly this......getting yourself into too much of a tricky situation trying anything else after u dont hit flop this early on......when heart comes on turn if there was a bet u need to be calling again so losing more chips!!

In a 45 or 90 might be different though!!

[AAroddersAA]

To be fair most people seem to be agreeing that you should peel preflop here and that line is superior to folding. I am still not too sure I like it but if we are confident post flop then I can accept that it might be the better play.

I don"t see myself starting to do it any time soon though. Just still feels incorrect to me and I am very happy with my current approach to these games. A wise man recently told me - if it isn"t broke, don"t try to fix it

Good thread does anybody else have any feelings on this spot either way?

Also what would you do it AJ, AQ, AK, JJ and QQ here?

[TheSnapper]

We are 70 bb"s deep, that"s likely as deep stacked as we"ll be for the whole tourney, not seeing a cheap flop here with ATs is a big missed opportunity imho.

[AAroddersAA]

We are 70 bb"s deep, that"s likely as deep stacked as we"ll be for the whole tourney, not seeing a cheap flop here with ATs is a big missed opportunity imho.

I remain unconvinced we even should be calling here OOP although I appear to be well in the minority and some much better players than me seem to think we should so I am wrong. I just can"t see many advantages in it though.

It just looks to me like a spot which is nice in theory however in reality there are so many flops that will get us into trouble in game.

[TheSnapper]

We are 70 bb"s deep, that"s likely as deep stacked as we"ll be for the whole tourney, not seeing a cheap flop here with ATs is a big missed opportunity imho.

I remain unconvinced we even should be calling here OOP although I appear to be well in the minority and some much better players than me seem to think we should so I am wrong. I just can"t see many advantages in it though.

It just looks to me like a spot which is nice in theory however in reality there are so many flops that will get us into trouble in game.

Not if you have a plan and stick to it, seriously Rodders you will give up your postflop edge and play a predominantly preflop strategy in a $2.50 game?

Out of curiosity, what is your itm % & top 3 place % for this game?

[AAroddersAA]

We are 70 bb"s deep, that"s likely as deep stacked as we"ll be for the whole tourney, not seeing a cheap flop here with ATs is a big missed opportunity imho.

I remain unconvinced we even should be calling here OOP although I appear to be well in the minority and some much better players than me seem to think we should so I am wrong. I just can"t see many advantages in it though.

It just looks to me like a spot which is nice in theory however in reality there are so many flops that will get us into trouble in game.

Not if you have a plan and stick to it, seriously Rodders you will give up your postflop edge and play a predominantly preflop strategy in a $2.50 game?

Out of curiosity, what is your itm % & top 3 place % for this game?

Well yes, they are a predominantly preflop game (although this spot is not).

The plan here would be to hit top pair or give up I assume, can"t see a better one. I don"t like that plan in this spot because I can hit it and still not be good too easily, yes you only lose a few chips as Mark says but I don"t want to lose them, I am not giving up much of an edge here I don"t think. You don"t play much post flop poker in them anyway. I prefer to keep the chips - just the way I do it in these.

My results are ok (not great, not terrible) but I could easily be playing this spot totally wrong and still be making a nice profit as this is such a tiny part of the game as long as my shoving and calling ranges are good I don"t actually need a post flop edge to do well in these games (not much poker is played they are a skillset all of their own). My results for what they are worth are:-

Games this year: 632
ITM: 15.35%
Top 3: 2.1% (7 wins, 5 second 1 third)
ROI: 20.22%
Profit: $319.42

As I said I think this would be considered fairly average.

[mylesfdo]

We are 70 bb"s deep, that"s likely as deep stacked as we"ll be for the whole tourney, not seeing a cheap flop here with ATs is a big missed opportunity imho.

I remain unconvinced we even should be calling here OOP although I appear to be well in the minority and some much better players than me seem to think we should so I am wrong. I just can"t see many advantages in it though.

It just looks to me like a spot which is nice in theory however in reality there are so many flops that will get us into trouble in game.

Not if you have a plan and stick to it, seriously Rodders you will give up your postflop edge and play a predominantly preflop strategy in a $2.50 game?

Out of curiosity, what is your itm % & top 3 place % for this game?

Well yes, they are a predominantly preflop game (although this spot is not).

The plan here would be to hit top pair or give up I assume, can"t see a better one. I don"t like that plan in this spot because I can hit it and still not be good too easily, yes you only lose a few chips as Mark says but I don"t want to lose them, I am not giving up much of an edge here I don"t think. You don"t play much post flop poker in them anyway. I prefer to keep the chips - just the way I do it in these.

My results are ok (not great, not terrible) but I could easily be playing this spot totally wrong and still be making a nice profit as this is such a tiny part of the game as long as my shoving and calling ranges are good I don"t actually need a post flop edge to do well in these games (not much poker is played they are a skillset all of their own). My results for what they are worth are:-

Games this year: 632
ITM: 15.35%
Top 3: 2.1% (7 wins, 5 second 1 third)
ROI: 20.22%
Profit: $319.42

As I said I think this would be considered fairly average.

Think youve got the plan bit wrong there Rodders.....my plan in calling pre would be to hit disguised straight or flush (or flush draw and see cheap turn) and if we do hit get the lot off player with top pair!!

[mporter123]

The plan here would be to hit top pair or give up I assume, can"t see a better one.

Yea, agree Myles, this is definitely not the plan. A10s plays well post flop, there are many many other ways we will win the hand without hitting top pair.

[AAroddersAA]

Hmm OK, I disagree (even though I seem to be wrong *lol*) but as I said more than one way to play them and the forum would be boring if we all agreed on everything. I think what you are suggesting is fine in most forms of poker but just not in these.

Awesome discussion though. We need more threads like this one on here. I am going to start a few today  

[mporter123]

I think what you are suggesting is fine in most forms of poker but just not in these.

I think this is the crux of the discussion. If I had posted the hand as "MTT hand starting with 75bb"s" rather than 180 turbo Sit N Go then I think its fair to say your response would probably have been differently.

I do understand that we need to adjust to structures - I think this is particularly relevant once we go into shove mode. I.e. on a basic level, I should be shoving wider with 12bb"s in a turbo than I should be in a deeperstacked tournament as we know the blinds are going up fast.

Saying that, I think that there is far less of a reason to adjust your standard MTT style as much when your this deep, regardless of the fact that average stack will be 10-15 bbs for the vast majority of the tournament. 

Agree, great discussion. The one thing I will say is that the overall concensus on here and blonde was that the decision actually wasn"t close. We are not debating a marginal call, not calling A10s in this spot is a leak. I like that fact - most leaks turn out to be playing too loose and feel easy to correct. Its much harder/scarier to make this sort of adjustment - you will be faced with more decisions but you will make more money in the long run.

[TheSnapper]

ITM: 15.35%
Top 3: 2.1% (7 wins, 5 second 1 third)

Your ITM is a tiny bit high, if you were able to identify how to correctly shave ~2% off ITM you could increase your top 3 placing slightly and ROI greatly.

I suspect speculating a little in the early levels may help, think how many extra options you have playing a healthy stack mid-game and on the bubble.

[mylesfdo]

The plan here would be to hit top pair or give up I assume, can"t see a better one.

Yea, agree Myles, this is definitely not the plan. A10s plays well post flop, there are many many other ways we will win the hand without hitting top pair.

hmmm....why u raising flop then mate?!!

[mporter123]

The plan here would be to hit top pair or give up I assume, can"t see a better one.

Yea, agree Myles, this is definitely not the plan. A10s plays well post flop, there are many many other ways we will win the hand without hitting top pair.

hmmm....why u raising flop then mate?!!

The hand A10s plays well post flop. That does not mean that I play the hand well post flop.

I was agreeing with your plan.

[mylesfdo]

The plan here would be to hit top pair or give up I assume, can"t see a better one.

Yea, agree Myles, this is definitely not the plan. A10s plays well post flop, there are many many other ways we will win the hand without hitting top pair.

hmmm....why u raising flop then mate?!!

The hand A10s plays well post flop. That does not mean that I play the hand well post flop.

I was agreeing with your plan.

lol thought u were saying u had same plan but then totally contradicted it by putting the raise in!!