How not to play JJ??

[AMRN]

at the end of the day, the cards in this situation are almost irrelevant - he had position on you, and it was position that he beat you with.


I think the call preflop was ok to try and hit the set. the bet on the flop was good to find out where you were..... but the small re-raise should have given you the answer you needed.....

Calling the re-raise was the first mistake..... at this point you either commit your stack, or fold. It was clear that if you flat called, then checked the turn, he would bet - as it happened, this occured on the river.  When he re-raised you needed to make a decision to go for it and shove back over the top and take your chance, or go with your read that he had a bigger pair, fold, congratulate yourself on the chips you just saved, and wait for a better spot when you have position!

[Roscopiko]

IMO It wasn"t just your position that lost you the pot it was your failure to define his hand at any stage. 

I"m not playing mid range holdings from the SB unless you are playing them either to limp and hit a big flop i.e. in this case trips at least not just unders or fast play them with a reraise and find out if he has you drawing thin already.

In this case, judging from the way he played the rest of the hand, if you"d raised you would probably of been re-reraised pre flop and had to release anyhow.

Once you have bet the flop and he has min raised I would be asking whether he can min raise there with anything big with the flush out? I"m reraising at that stage and fold if he can come over the top.

[troubled joe]

Thanks for these most recent replies; just spotted them whilst browsing the forum. 

I think that, in retrospect and taking into account the views expressed, I"m happy with the flat call pre-flop.  It"s the flop where - as most of you point out - it all began to unravel.  Having decided to lead out, I have to work out whether his min-raise suggests weakness.  If I think it does then, like AMRN says, I have to commit to the pot there and then by pushing.  Otherwise, I give it up.

With hindsight though, I think I prefer a check-raise on the flop as some of you have suggested. Obviously this conveys more strength on my part and so forces him to define his hand (as per problem pointed out by johns).  Presumably, he folds, but if he can find the big move back over the top then fair play to him and I have to fold the best hand.  After the hand I remember him saying something about being worried that I"d flopped a set and I think the check-raise might have convinced him of that.

I like George"s idea of check-calling to keep the pot small and often play like this online, but I find it doesn"t get much respect and leads to aggressive oppponents putting you to increasingly difficult decisions on later streets.....and I"m not very good at difficult decisions.

[Roscopiko]

Add this one for debate. Have I massively overplayed JJ here. Comments please

POKERSTARS GAME #18601976026: TOURNAMENT #94566291, $6.00+$0.50 HOLD"EM NO LIMIT - LEVEL II (15/30) - 2008/07/05 - 14:06:08 (ET)
Table "94566291 1" 9-max Seat #4 is the button
Seat 1: Vexi (1455 in chips)
Seat 2: SEADEE (3120 in chips)
Seat 3: iguanarana (1415 in chips)
Seat 4: jno003 (750 in chips)
Seat 5: haarek (1645 in chips)
Seat 6: Mattoc (1470 in chips)
Seat 7: theodora#1 (2040 in chips)
Seat 8: Richmillion (205 in chips)
Seat 9: roscopiko (1400 in chips)
haarek: posts small blind 15
Mattoc: posts big blind 30
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to roscopiko [jd jc]
theodora#1: calls 30
Richmillion: folds
roscopiko: raises 90 to 120
Vexi: folds
SEADEE: folds
iguanarana: folds
jno003: folds
haarek: calls 105
Mattoc: folds
theodora#1: calls 90
*** FLOP *** [ th ]
haarek: checks
theodora#1: bets 300
roscopiko: raises 980 to 1280 and is all-in
haarek: folds
theodora#1: calls 980
*** TURN *** [ th ] [ts]
*** RIVER *** [ th ts] []
*** SHOW DOWN ***
theodora#1: shows [tc td] (four of a kind, Tens)
roscopiko: shows [jd jc] (two pair, Jacks and Tens)
theodora#1 collected 2950 from pot

[Santino67]

Check/call on the flop would"ve been my suggestion as well George. I think it then puts a doubt in the other player"s mind as to whether or not you may have a monster, while at the same time keeping the pot small enough to get off the 3 hearts on the turn if UTG put a "call-me" bet in to the pot..

[EMing]

Simply
Against raises unless you have position play  jd jh like   and fold if you miss.  You will save a lot more than you lose
Ming the Simple

[Santino67]

Hi Ross, hope life"s good mate and I"ll get a chance to catch up with you at The Vic

Here"s my tuppence worth - You raised pre-flop and Theodora then called you, At this point I think I may have become concerned about their previous under the gun limp........you were still ahead, but I"d still be suspicious. Jacks are horrible cards, do you limp, raise, over-bet??? IMO having lost too many times with them I believe it"s better to try and keep it cheap.

The biggest problem is that there are very few flops you"ll be happy to see, so keeping it cheap should make it easier to throw them away. Unfortunately the flop you got looked too good. You have an over-pair to the board plus an up & down straight draw............but on the other hand there are so many draws out there. Given that Theodora bet 300 into a 390 pot, you"re now looking at a pot that"s bigger than it should be and too tempting to let go of. A flat call would still have left you with close to a thousand chips and position to see what Theodora would"ve done on the river.

[TopPair2Pair]

My Hooks got busted in a live MMT the other day as well... I see a reoccuring theme here!

I am probably the worst person to give out advice but regarding the original hand I would say if your are going to play from the sb then you gotta be prepared to use it to your advantage and lead out with it. piddle in the breeze and see if your sneakers get coated!

if your out of position then your out of position you cant get up and swap seats with anyone but you can act first, and I personally prefer acting first shrewdly in this scenario. Its not something I would do often at the level you mentioned but its something I personally would considering the flop came low I had over pairs and I didn"t think the fella had premium pockets...

Okay i"ll go to sleep now before ppl start abusing my logic!

[ThinkerJE]

I don"t mind the call with JJ, you are out of position and have put him on a premium hand.  What you are hoping for is to hit your set.  I also like your feeler bet when the board comes all rags, however when he raises you must figure him for AA or KK.  Now you have to hit a jack to go ahead.  You asked the question but failed to listen to the answer.  Its a fold now, you have only done about 1,200 of you stack and you still have lots of chips left at this stage of the tournament.  The problem with calling the raise is what do you do on the turn if you don"t hit your jack?  No need to get too involved with your chips at this stage with blinds only 100-200.

[noble1]

1st situation live play
there are different ways of playing this situation.but what i"d suggest to you is develop a little more aggression, JJ is a top 5 starting hand facing a utg raiser [depending on your read on him] you are out of position so calling imo is weak , a raise pre flop is 1st taking control of the hand and also you are getting info on what the utg villians likely holdings are, a smooth call by him and now the chances of a bigger pair are not so high.
The flop is a good for you , the bet of 2/3 pot is also ok but he min raises ?? on a 2 suit flop to me smells just over cards  [feeling you out !!] if he had a big pair he would jam it up a lot more than a min raise [he could put you on a flush draw remember ] and also if he had 2 high overcards suited would he not make a bigger raise [strong flush draw and 2 overs not bad hand you know] and take the hand down on the flop !!
At this point on the flop I"d re-raise him back strong [take the pot down] because 1 i do not put him on a bigger pair and 2 also i"ve discounted the flush draw so what i am doing is protecting my hand against the chance of him hitting one of his over cards Ace king queen and if the donk wants to call here or reaise all in back, you are a 3/1 favourite to win the hand.
hope my thoughts on this situation help you in some way.