Author Topic: Luck and Poker  (Read 5955 times)

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Maxriddles

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Luck and Poker
« on: October 27, 2008, 10:20:00 AM »
I"ve never played on Stars much but decided last night to deposit and play some 180 seater SNGs to try to build a bankroll. I played 9 in total winning one and failing to cash in the other 8. My style of play was identical in all nine, and on the rare occasions I was behind when the chips went in I was up against a big but unlikely hand.
The only difference I could see between the one I won and the ones I lost was luck or more to the point the timing of it. I seemed to suffer a lot of very bad luck in some of those I failed to cash in, that said I also suffered a lot of bad luck in the one I won but the difference was that it was that it wasn"t at critical times. I also had one piece of outrages good luck with AK v AA, the river king giving me a set, although tourney life was not on the line
My feeling on luck in MTT poker is that it is a big big part of it, or more so the timing of it. You will have both good and bad luck in a MTT but doing the right thing at the right time/position should see you okay in the long run. The problem with that is that the recreational player (like me) probably doesn"t play enough MTTs to see this even itself out and don"t see the good luck very often and mistakenly think they are on a bad run where their luck is actually standard. 
Any other thoughts on this?
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Chipaccrual

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Re: Luck and Poker
« Reply #1 on: October 27, 2008, 10:39:22 AM »

I"ve never played on Stars much but decided last night to deposit and play some 180 seater SNGs to try to build a bankroll. I played 9 in total winning one and failing to cash in the other 8. My style of play was identical in all nine, and on the rare occasions I was behind when the chips went in I was up against a big but unlikely hand.
The only difference I could see between the one I won and the ones I lost was luck or more to the point the timing of it. I seemed to suffer a lot of very bad luck in some of those I failed to cash in, that said I also suffered a lot of bad luck in the one I won but the difference was that it was that it wasn"t at critical times. I also had one piece of outrages good luck with AK v AA, the river king giving me a set, although tourney life was not on the line
My feeling on luck in MTT poker is that it is a big big part of it, or more so the timing of it. You will have both good and bad luck in a MTT but doing the right thing at the right time/position should see you okay in the long run. The problem with that is that the recreational player (like me) probably doesn"t play enough MTTs to see this even itself out and don"t see the good luck very often and mistakenly think they are on a bad run where their luck is actually standard. 
Any other thoughts on this?


Spot on.  I have thought this for a while.  I guess the question is when is it best to try your luck with hands.  For example,

I was playing on Pokerstars yesterday in a $3 rebuy ($40k gtd).  6500ish runners.  Had been playing for 5+ hours and had my fair share of luck along the way, but was sitting 4/71 on about 500k, in the money ($80ish).

Had just got moved tables, and was on with the chipleader (1.5m).  I am dealt  tc td utg, blinds are 5k/10k.  I raise to 40k.  Chipleader in mid position shoves all-in for his 1.5m stack.  Folds back round to me, what do you do ?

The cash doesn"t really start rising until about 20th and I"m convinced he"s stealing, but am probably up against at least one overcard.

kaysing

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Re: Luck and Poker
« Reply #2 on: October 27, 2008, 10:48:32 AM »
Nothing scientific to back it up but I reckon that luck accounts for about 80%  and skill the other 20%. May evenbe higher, but that is why it is difficult to continually win and only a very few regularly make it to the big time.

Last night I won a live mtt - 25 runners.  Got heads up with 50k of chips against 260k.  The big bit of luck I had was:

blinds 10/20k
my stack 114k
opp stack  200k

I am on the button and after a few hands of folding I push with  8h  th, to find I am up against  ad and ah - talk about comedy and timing.  At least I have 2 live cards!!

The flop includes 2 hearts to give me some hope of a flush.  The turn is a T, increasing my optimism.  Well, the river shows another T and I double up.

Three hands later it is all over - now that is poker, but to get to that position I had to fold some big hands.  It is really important in tournament play to know when to change gears which is what makes it such a beautiful game compared to the grind of cash.  (Only my opinion - not looking for an arguement or anything). 


Happy hunting


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noble1

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Re: Luck and Poker
« Reply #3 on: October 27, 2008, 16:47:33 PM »
Every poker player gets variance,losing confidence in your poker game or just getting pissed that you lost is a common result for a lot of players.
There is luck at winning when the cards are turned face up [PRE-FLOP], or outdraw luck [POST FLOP]. There is luck in the actual dealing of the cards themselves, or how the **** did that fish get AA for the 300thtime this session luck.There is even luck of the seat you get. In tournaments the dynamics of the table that your at can affect your own variance,the truth is, if you play in games with more aggressive players you will have more swings than in games where more players limp and players are less aggressive, especially with their made hands, you will have less variance.So if your style is aggressive you will experience a lot of variance, if you have a tight style you will have more consistent results but both styles work long term if you make more GOOD DECISIONS than bad ones.
So what we have to focus on is to understand what makes us a winning and losing player? It"s not whether you play draws, aggressively, whether you are tight or loose, all that matters is making good decisions.
For me that is what poker is about - variance and decisions [good or bad] and i accept that i cant win every time i get a pair of aces or kings.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2008, 16:49:38 PM by noble1 »

Chipaccrual

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Re: Luck and Poker
« Reply #4 on: October 27, 2008, 16:57:09 PM »

Every poker player gets variance,losing confidence in your poker game or just getting pissed that you lost is a common result for a lot of players.
There is luck at winning when the cards are turned face up [PRE-FLOP], or outdraw luck [POST FLOP]. There is luck in the actual dealing of the cards themselves, or how the **** did that fish get AA for the 300thtime this session luck.There is even luck of the seat you get. In tournaments the dynamics of the table that your at can affect your own variance,the truth is, if you play in games with more aggressive players you will have more swings than in games where more players limp and players are less aggressive, especially with their made hands, you will have less variance.So if your style is aggressive you will experience a lot of variance, if you have a tight style you will have more consistent results but both styles work long term if you make more GOOD DECISIONS than bad ones.
So what we have to focus on is to understand what makes us a winning and losing player? It"s not whether you play draws, aggressively, whether you are tight or loose, all that matters is making good decisions.
For me that is what poker is about - variance and decisions [good or bad] and i accept that i cant win every time i get a pair of aces or kings.


Nicely put.  :)

rubertoe

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Re: Luck and Poker
« Reply #5 on: October 27, 2008, 17:12:46 PM »
Very well explained Noble!!

Keep getting the money in good and you"ll be alright in the long run,

its just if you get your money in good - you only remember the suck outs!!!! as they are what cripple us/send us to the rail/tilt us/make us throw up!  
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SirPercival

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Re: Luck and Poker
« Reply #6 on: October 27, 2008, 20:00:32 PM »
Luck is a word we use when we fail to understand the laws of probability.

IMHO  ;)

kinboshi

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Re: Luck and Poker
« Reply #7 on: October 28, 2008, 10:35:30 AM »

Keep getting the money in good and you"ll be alright in the long run,


Not necessarily.  In cash, I"d agree.  In tournaments...

Put it this way, you"re in a large tournament, held over several days.  You make Day 2 and are sitting pretty with a hefty stack.  You"ve played for 15 hours and then you suffer two "beats" - and suddenly you"re in a dangerous situation.  Sure enough, an hour or so later you lose a race for all your chips, and you"ve gone.  You didn"t put a foot wrong, and yet you"re standing by the rail thinking of what might have been. 

If you regularly play in these big tournaments, then you"re going to have the opportunity to get into that position again.  But if you did it 20 times, would it be against the laws of probability if you came unstuck each time without cashing big?  

I know of very good tournament players who have gone 80-odd tournaments without a cash!  That could be down to variance or bad play, or a combination of the two.  But you need more good luck acting in your favour to win a tournament than you need bad luck to suffer a beat (or series of beats) that knocks you out.

I once won an APAT tournament.  I think I played pretty well that weekend, but I KNOW I was lucky.  There are far better tournament players than me in APAT.  I could list loads, but two that spring to mind are Eck and Rio.  Yet neither of them have won a live national - and if they continued to play for 5 seasons of APAT would we expect them to?  Eck did brilliantly to qualify for the WSOP, and then he went on to cash.  I know he had some luck along the way, but the fact he"s a good player obviously helped him get into the money.  But if he hadn"t cashed, would that have been unexpected?  Not really.  It"s a massive field, full of all sorts of players.  It"s no "failure" not to cash, thousands do it every year - many are very good players. 

The idea of "it"ll even out in the long run" doesn"t ring true though.  The better players might have an "edge" in a tournament, but their advantage over the other players might only be slight, because of the chance element.   There are a lot of bullets to dodge, and maybe a minefield is a better analogy.  You have to get from A to B, and the only path is through a minefield.  One wrong step and you fail.  Obviously in poker you can "earn" yourself several lives so that one wrong step doesn"t end it all.  But it"s still the case that hundreds of good steps can all be in vain if you slip up along the way.  Getting my analogies all mixed up now.

There"s an article that explains why the luck doesn"t balance itself out, and a major reason for this is that the poorer player often requires luck to win a hand (more than than the better player), and so he"s obviously going to have to outdraw more times than the better player.  How is the luck going to "even out" if he doesn"t get the same number of opportunities to outdraw people in the same way?

Good tournament players will be winning players over the long term.  However, the ones who have won the big tournaments aren"t necessarily better than the ones who haven"t.  Maybe they"ve been luckier.

Also, good luck in the past is obviously not an indication of good luck in the future.

Anyway, what was the question?
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Swinebag

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Re: Luck and Poker
« Reply #8 on: October 28, 2008, 11:15:16 AM »
Great post Dan

In big field MTTs luck doesn"t even itself out, as it is impossible to play enough tournaments to get the reward for "correct decisions", unless of course you are lucky

However, I know a lot of players who play (and consistently make good money) in online MTTs with smaller fields ( 80 - 300 runners). In the long run, the reward for correct decision making outweighs the luck required, with the same players reporting (unsurprisingly) that they find it much harder, and in some cases unprofitable, as the number reaches the higher end of the range.

I suppose the question has to be:

"What is the maximum number of runners needed before you are totally reliant on luck to make a profit no matter how skilled you are?"



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lukybugur

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Re: Luck and Poker
« Reply #9 on: October 28, 2008, 12:21:55 PM »
Quote
Great post Dan


Indeed! Where did you copy it from?

AMRN

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Re: Luck and Poker
« Reply #10 on: October 28, 2008, 13:14:06 PM »


I once won an APAT tournament.  I think I played pretty well that weekend


BRAG POST!!!

kinboshi

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Re: Luck and Poker
« Reply #11 on: October 28, 2008, 14:28:03 PM »

Quote
Great post Dan


Indeed! Where did you copy it from?


Not telling.  Who read it to you?
"Running hurts up to a point and then it doesn't get any worse."  Ann Trason

kinboshi

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Re: Luck and Poker
« Reply #12 on: October 28, 2008, 14:32:43 PM »
"Running hurts up to a point and then it doesn't get any worse."  Ann Trason

noble1

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Re: Luck and Poker
« Reply #13 on: October 28, 2008, 18:16:51 PM »
so you have to make bad decisions to win mtts? :D i did say though that if you make more good decisions than bad ones in a mtt that you will improve your chances of winning it or going deep..Yes even i have seen some players have an amazing run of cards and win mtts but also i have seen a great many who then never win another one after,a lot of the time its because they think they have cracked it,they think they have it figured out BUT then when they then start losing they blame everything but themselves and there poker game.
What has happened? have other players figured there style and now know how to tactically change to them? has variance finally caught up with them? surely if you keep getting your chips in behind or in to many flips then that affects your chances of winning?
Also the concept of high volume mtts is the only way to win big field mtts is flawed as the better players do have an uncanny ability to be consistently in the mix.
For example WestmenloAA on stars plays low volume in the belief that it makes him fresher and it works for him[check his record],JohnnyBax has now been in the top 30 online players for the last 3 1/2 years , is this an amazing run of variance or simply because the dude is bloody good?
Live play in recent history with the bigger fields even i see players come and go and yet i still see Allen Cunningham weaving his way through huge fields,Phil Hellmuth god bless him has now 11 bracelets all in NL mtts , that is no fluke.John Juanda doesnt play a high volume live and yet after a lean period results wise after 2005 still proves in london this year that his ability to win was no fluke.
I"m sure many of you can think of others online and live that seem to have that uncanny knack of constantly being in contention,this is NOT LUCK,they are simply very very good players who work hard at there game and the rewards are a by product. IN the steps games on stars how come stevie444 won 101 wsop packages,I DO NOT THINK THAT WAS LUCK.
The list can go and on and also Chad "Lilholdem954" Batista who had a very laggy style was burning up mtts on stars in 2007 but has now fallen off the radar WHY?
He famously blamed everything [rigged sites,bad beats,luck etc etc] but his own game but has now since realized that he has to work on his game.
LUCK LUCK LUCK LUCK try telling mike sexton that Stu Ungar,Doyle Brunsen or Amarillo slim are just lucky............and see what answer you get back............