Double elim, pub poker.

[TopPair2Pair]

Right, this hand sent me tilt and proceeded to turn me into an animal on sunday, just wondering wtf ppl think villain is min raise 3betting with in this spot. Complex steal or is he just rrrreeeaaally strong?

30 players, 9 left, 400/800 blinds, I have about 17K, villain has 14.5K. I am UTG+1, His UTG+2.

I have KQo and raise to x2.5 BB, villain imeediately min raises. Everyone else folds back to me..... now what?

Yeah KQo leaves us open to alot of exploitation but I like KQ here v btn/blinds... just not our min raiser.

From what I can tell, he picks his spots very well, good post flop play, likes pairs and plays a pretty standard game.

[duke3016]

shove or fold pre -- but hey thats just me

[bigredders]

pub poker...blatently aces, trying to induce you into calling, which you will because you have the odds either call and hope to hit an unlikely huge flop or fold, which is my option

[hi_am_chris]

you say he plays well post flop so why play a marginal hand to him OOP? Fold and look to get it in in a better spot, C

[Marty719]

Fold p/f - ur stack size is wayy too awkward to play this hand from ep.

[TopPair2Pair]

you say he plays well post flop so why play a marginal hand to him OOP? Fold and look to get it in in a better spot, C

For this game its not too marginal imo.... and I am happy to make a play say 16 - 20% of the time depending who"s in blinds, how long since the final table just merged, etc. If I get through the better players sitting directly to my left then i am looking forward to having pos on blinds and button doesn"t concern me as his pretty fit or fold.

I wld rather make this play in early pos then late pos as it looks much stronger to the better players, if i run into a monster then so be it but I am not scared of a bigger ace here or pairs in this game. In a poker room or in a casino I am folding here 100% of the time 9 handed UTG+1.

pub poker...blatently aces, trying to induce you into calling, which you will because you have the odds either call and hope to hit an unlikely huge flop or fold, which is my option

Its the "min raise" 3bet thats dirving me mad, I think his feining super strength inorder to resteal from me... it could quite easily be AA but I think he would just call with this.

So what is he min raise 3betting me with for value(including AA)?

OR what is he min raise 3betting me with for the resteal?

[Marty719]

you say he plays well post flop so why play a marginal hand to him OOP? Fold and look to get it in in a better spot, C

For this game its not too marginal imo.... and I am happy to make a play say 16 - 20% of the time depending who"s in blinds, how long since the final table just merged, etc. If I get through the better players sitting directly to my left then i am looking forward to having pos on blinds and button doesn"t concern me as his pretty fit or fold.

I wld rather make this play in early pos then late pos as it looks much stronger to the better players, if i run into a monster then so be it but I am not scared of a bigger ace here or pairs in this game. In a poker room or in a casino I am folding here 100% of the time 9 handed UTG+1.

pub poker...blatently aces, trying to induce you into calling, which you will because you have the odds either call and hope to hit an unlikely huge flop or fold, which is my option

Its the "min raise" 3bet thats dirving me mad, I think his feining super strength inorder to resteal from me... it could quite easily be AA but I think he would just call with this.

So what is he min raise 3betting me with for value(including AA)?

OR what is he min raise 3betting me with for the resteal?

Prime example of overthinking in pub poker imo.  Def rather play KQo in late position for the reason tht there is less of a chance of sum1 having a hand behind u where u will get r/r"d and have to fold.

"I wld rather make this play in early pos then late pos as it looks much stronger to the better players, if i run into a monster then so be it but I am not scared of a bigger ace here or pairs in this game. In a poker room or in a casino I am folding here 100% of the time 9 handed UTG+1. "

As for this - surely the better players will be in the card room who will understand the necessary holdings for an utg raise so this move may actually be more effective here than in a pub where the majority will be social players!!  Having said tht - still fold in both spots.

Think ur giving villain too much credit.  Min-raise from ep in a pub game to feign strength just doesnt happen too much.  The majority of his range is big pairs imo, and Im pretty sure his entire range has u beaten a good % of the time!

[TopPair2Pair]

Prime example of overthinking in pub poker imo.  

lol thats fair enuff... but I"m allowed to think about poker even if i do play in a pub! Point taken RE pub v poker room...

The majority of his range is big pairs imo, and Im pretty sure his entire range has u beaten a good % of the time!

Your probably right. And I can probably find out what he was min raise"n me with just by asking him but i"d rather think about it tbh..  

anyway. the point is this. His a strong player in this format and deserves the credit i am giving him... my guts telling me he knows i know the blinds will fold. he knows i know the button may call and then fold to a cbet on a decent board. so knowing this i belive he could potentially do this with as low as 22.... if i knew this in his position i would raise too buying the button (but not min raise). Its quite likely he could TRY this again and subsequently i would like to understand each scenario better if i am in a position to exploit it. Also being prepared for it. Obv next time i may not be the open raiser in ep or hold KQ... but it deservse some thought imo

[bigredders]

Prime example of overthinking in pub poker imo.  

lol thats fair enuff... but I"m allowed to think about poker even if i do play in a pub! Point taken RE pub v poker room...

The majority of his range is big pairs imo, and Im pretty sure his entire range has u beaten a good % of the time!

Your probably right. And I can probably find out what he was min raise"n me with just by asking him but i"d rather think about it tbh..  

anyway. the point is this. His a strong player in this format and deserves the credit i am giving him... my guts telling me he knows i know the blinds will fold. he knows i know the button may call and then fold to a cbet on a decent board. so knowing this i belive he could potentially do this with as low as 22.... if i knew this in his position i would raise too buying the button (but not min raise). Its quite likely he could TRY this again and subsequently i would like to understand each scenario better if i am in a position to exploit it. Also being prepared for it. Obv next time i may not be the open raiser in ep or hold KQ... but it deservse some thought imo

the problem is if you call and hit top pair, where do you stand? if it comes q high is his range not still crushing you? you seem to be too good a player at pub level, sometimes you may have to dumb down your thoughts. He may seem a competant player but i have played a lot of players at lower levels that dont even know what position means on the table.  

[antthecat]

its a tricky situation cos i read the 3 bet as strong but a pub player could vary from a drunk passing and just playing his cards(qj suited looks pretty when blotto"d) time to a casino grinder just there for easy money, as i know all my players at the pub league my choice of what to do would vary from player to player, if its a weakish player then all in ott is the order but if its a strong player then fold and wait to pick off the weak players and have more weaponery for taking on stronger players. but always remember, fish get good cards just as much as good players, its how they extract value is the key. this probably wont help but i do understand where u are coming from.

[TopPair2Pair]

Thanks, I cant wait to move away from this game and post issues from "casino poker" which will make much more sense to apat"rs when it come to these daft threads of mine!

His definately a good player and I personally think he would do well anywhere casino/pub/Apat(probably better then me in an large field MTT) etc understands position, knows what to raise with,(+fold) havent rly paid that much attention to his 3betting tho.. hence the thread.

Having given it some consideration. I think he could have done this with the following, especially sitting to my left with the chips we had;
QQ, JJ, TT, AKs, AKo, AQs, AQo, KQs. 22 - 99, ATs+, KQo

His flatting without a doubt with AA, KK.

[Swinebag]

Thanks, I cant wait to move away from this game and post issues from "casino poker" which will make much more sense to apat"rs when it come to these daft threads of mine!

Dont expect too much difference in standard at the casino

[antthecat]

Thanks, I cant wait to move away from this game and post issues from "casino poker" which will make much more sense to apat"rs when it come to these daft threads of mine!

Dont expect too much difference in standard at the casino

+1

the standard at a casno i have found locally(norfolk/north suffolk) is roughly the same, you have to just assess how you rate a player but it is sometimes ok to make the wrong decision in a league tournament, sometimes i would go all in ott with junk down the pub just to see if they are using image to their strength and see what they were up to and take note, if you feel it is the right decision to fold or call or raise then it wont hurt overall in a league.

i do play in a pub league and it can be puzzling but when you win a trophy then it will be worth all the head scrathing.