Author Topic: Another 'thoughts please' thread, sorry...  (Read 4720 times)

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Pears27

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Another 'thoughts please' thread, sorry...
« on: July 10, 2010, 21:52:15 PM »
Just wanted some opinions on this spot. It comes from today"s GUKPT Club Championship (£200fo) at G Coventry.

Level 4, 100-200-25, 12 remain from only 18 runners.

I"m on the button with just over 11k chips so effective M (6-handed) = 15.

UTG folds, Villain raises to 500 in 2nd position, cutoff folds. Villain"s a decent player I"ve played with before and I fully expect his opening range to be pretty wide 6-handed. He has me covered, approx. 14k chips.

I pick up ah 9h and raise to 1,250. Blinds fold, Villain thinks for 10 seconds and calls.

Flop 9d 8h 6d

Villain checks. I bet 2k with my TPTK, 8k behind. Villain raises to 4.5k.

Now what?

deanp27

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Re: Another 'thoughts please' thread, sorry...
« Reply #1 on: July 10, 2010, 22:18:48 PM »
not bet/folding tptk (+bd nfd) in a 3bet pot on a really drawy board.
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Pears27

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Re: Another 'thoughts please' thread, sorry...
« Reply #2 on: July 10, 2010, 22:27:58 PM »
So push it there and then or call to see if he hits the turn (assuming he is indeed drawing to one or both)?

Cash, they go in before his chips have landed, but for your tournament life on level 4 with M = 11 behind?

LongshanksED

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Re: Another 'thoughts please' thread, sorry...
« Reply #3 on: July 10, 2010, 22:51:53 PM »
i dont hate the raise pre flop but im more inclined to just call pre in position, then i"d prob call a continuation bet (unless its a massive over bet) and see if i improve. if i dont i fold, if a 3rd diamond comes i may bluff at if villian checks. if he bets strong on the turn im folding

as played im folding

AMRN

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Re: Another 'thoughts please' thread, sorry...
« Reply #4 on: July 10, 2010, 23:34:23 PM »
never ever folding here, and calling is pointless..... shove.

noble1

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Re: Another 'thoughts please' thread, sorry...
« Reply #5 on: July 11, 2010, 01:26:59 AM »
it"d help with a few more reads to go by pears , but when u say villain is decent and that u fully expect his opening range to be wide ish , just a question - have u seen any showdowns to get an idea of how wide it is?
also wouldn"t there be a difference in his range now he has called a 3bet oop?
now its all in the dynamics and image etc etc , but i"d thought his 3bet call range would be a lot more narrow than his opening range which makes me question why u cbet? my thinking on it would be ok we have top pair but what has he called with and what does he think i have and so on etc , again it depends on what he has seen u play and how , have u been 3betting/cbetting alot? etc etc... if we cbet how do u think he"ll respond with his 3bet call range? at best all i can see is a flip at best but mostly crushed , the ak aq that we are beating fold mostly to a cbet but if we check he only has 3outs , if he has a flush for instance we can have more FE on the turn if we choose to bet if checked to,or call a bet if stabs the turn etc , if a ace came we get more value from his ace holdings .... meh its late and bloody humid as i write this lol lol
anyhows no one has written anything just yet that would make me think going with top pair is the optimal play...
what are your thoughts on 3betting ranges pears? personally i would not have A9 in my range its either my top 5% or garbage with some sort of potential like 96s for instance , its easier imho especially if i have aggressive 4bettors to my left.
just questioning the M , isn"t it 24 ish ?  11000/450...

really hot and humid tonight , i"m off for a cold beer and a ciggie lol lol

« Last Edit: July 11, 2010, 01:29:26 AM by noble1 »

Mikeyboy9361

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Re: Another 'thoughts please' thread, sorry...
« Reply #6 on: July 11, 2010, 10:37:04 AM »
As played I,m never folding, probs would have just called the PFR though.
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Swinebag

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Re: Another 'thoughts please' thread, sorry...
« Reply #7 on: July 11, 2010, 13:42:40 PM »
I probably 3 bet a bit more here (to 1400 min - probably 1500), though flatting in position is fine as well.

I"m struggling to understand what your bet means on the flop. Is it for value or is it a bluff? When oppo calls the 3 bet OOP, given your read of him being a good player, I"d be tempted to slow down and would be thinking that his range is much smaller than when he raised and TPTK becomes a very marginal hand.

I"d check behind for pot control and see what he does on the turn.

As played, you have got yourself in a horrible spot now where oppo has committed to the hand and there are plenty of hands that Oppo calls a 3 bet with, that beat TPTK. Given you bet for value on the flop, I"d relucta-ship for value and hope he was semi bluffing with AKdd or something else that you beat.
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Pears27

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Re: Another 'thoughts please' thread, sorry...
« Reply #8 on: July 11, 2010, 14:34:43 PM »
Thanks for all your replies. This is why I posted - I expected views to range from "I"m folding" to "never ever folding" which is exactly what I"ve got.

Easy one first - I"ve adjusted my M for the fact that we"re 6-handed (i.e. M=M*6/10). I read Harrington and have always done this, exc. heads up.

I have to confess I wrapped myself in circles on his reraise. When I said I knew he was a decent player, it was literally only that - he"s not a complete donk. Not a huge amount to go on in this comp, other than noticably opening up since the antes kicked in and we became short handed.

The conclusion I came to, as played, was that he can only be drawing. I haven"t been c-betting often enough (or indeed playing enough hands) for him to be sure he can CR the flop with the overpair, top 2 or even the set.

I took the most popular route on here and shoved. Villain called and showed  ad 7d for one of those "ahead but behind" spots, beating ace high but a slight dog.

FWIW,  jd on the turn hence my op being posted early on the same evening :)

Given my time again I probably still 3-bet pre but maybe for more. Maybe also check-call it down, but think it"s a bit hindsight-led.

Swinebag

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Re: Another 'thoughts please' thread, sorry...
« Reply #9 on: July 11, 2010, 14:38:21 PM »
poor read on villain being "decent". Though, unavoidable clash on the flop though....ul
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noble1

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Re: Another 'thoughts please' thread, sorry...
« Reply #10 on: July 11, 2010, 15:27:16 PM »
hmmm decent huh  :) work on your reads pears , i"m still not won over by getting all in with top pair on a wet co-ordinated flop this deep in a 3bet pot , rule of thumb i"d cbet a flop like this for thin value against a passive type but against aggressive players i"m more inclined to sacrifice some equity by allowing them to see a free turn so that i don't get raised off my hand when they are bluffing/semi-bluffing...

meh time for a cold beer lol lol


Pears27

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Re: Another 'thoughts please' thread, sorry...
« Reply #11 on: July 11, 2010, 17:00:48 PM »
Yeah, I was surprised to see A7 having called my 3-bet pre, though I guess I was pricing him in too much to get the information I was after. Post-flop I think I"m still ok, as I"m pretty certain I"m ahead when he checks the flop. Meh.

Note to readers - if I 3-bet pre at DTD next month I"ve always got A9. :)

noble1

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Re: Another 'thoughts please' thread, sorry...
« Reply #12 on: July 13, 2010, 04:15:09 AM »
no one has carried this thread on which is a shame imho as there are some interesting things about this hand which all of us at one time or another end up doing..
Pears and any others interested here is a bit more about free cards , pot to stack in mtts and stuarts views on various..
With the ""decent"" read Pears, i"m still not convinced by your play pre and post or what you was trying to achieve..
http://www.32redpoker.com/poker-school/test-yourself-with-stuart-rutter.html
anyhows to balance it, the second link is more std theory about the free card as sklansky in T.O.P
http://uk.pokernews.com/poker-strategy-theory/poker-strategy-giving-free-card.htm