How not to play JJ??

[troubled joe]

Morning all, wanted people"s thoughts on a big hand I made a right pig"s ear of in last Thursday"s MTT at Dusk Till Dawn.

I"m not great at recalling the exact detail of hands I"ve played (one of the many reasons I"m a fairly mediocre poker player!), but here goes:

We"re at level 4, blinds 100/200, and I"ve recently tripled up to around 12k in chips from starting stack of 4k.  It"s a full 9-player table

UTG - with similar stack size to me - raises to 600.  He"s been moderately aggressive, but doesn"t appear to have done anything particularly out of line.  I have JJ in the SB - a hand that always gives me trouble.  Put him on a genuine premium hand and elect just to call (my first mistake?) as does the BB.

Flop comes all undercard rags with a couple of hearts.  Concerned that UTG might have a bigger pair than me, I decide to put out a feeler bet of around 2/3 of the pot.  BB folds, UTG makes suspiciously small raise, just more than double my bet (from memory, I think I bet 1,200 and he raised to 2,600).  Having now convinced myself he has a bigger pocket pair, I still decide to flat call (again, is this wrong?).

Turn produces another low card, but a 3rd Heart.  Decide to have another pop, representing strength (a flopped set or flush; don"t think he"d put me on an overpair) and bet around half the pot - about 3,500.  He flat calls.  Now - to be honest - I feel quite lost, but still feel he has a bigger pair that he doesn"t want to fold, but is afraid to push with due to fears I may have him beat with a flush or set.

River is a blank and - with around 6k left and the pot more than twice as big - I feel I should push, but instead check and - of course - he pushes.  I think for an age before folding and he shows.....?

Any thoughts/advice?

[lukybugur]

whaddid he show? whaddid he show?

[troubled joe]

Lol - not just yet.  Want to get a bit of feedback first.  What do you reckon?

[Zanshin]

IMHO your call pre-flop was a mistake unless you were only planning to continue if you hit your set. You say you put him on a genuine premium hand so you should have folded and if you were not sure you should have raised for info.

Now the flop is undercard rags you still do not know where you are in this hand as the BB could have any 2 cards. Putting out a feeler bet is ok and it gets rid of the BB but the small raise by the UTG player would have me out of the pot. You are saying you are now convinced he has a bigger pair than you so I don"t understand why you are calling.

Now the 3rd heart hits the turn. If you are sure he was not on a Flush draw then I suppose a bluff here representing the flush may work but if I was the UTG player I don"t think I"d believe it. I"m also not sure the UTG player wasn"t on the flush draw as his small raise on the flop represented a made hand but could also have been a flush draw hoping to take down the hand there or gain a free card on the turn if he missed his flush.

His flat call of you 3,500 looks like a made flush now.

Although I think the hand was poorly played throughout I think you had to check fold the river and guarantee you are still in the game.

As for what he had I"m going with AhKh or AhQh but he probably showed something like a pair of black 10"s.  

[kinboshi]

I like that analysis in the whole.

I don"t mind the pre-flop call, there are many favourable situations for you after the flop, and you have enough chips to call and have a look.  His raise of 2xBB isn"t huge.

You don"t know if he"s on AK or TT (or anything else) at this stage.  On the flop, I might look to check-raise, and then be done with the hand if he comes back over the top.  That way you save yourself from that fLoudering feeling on the later streets when you have no idea where you are (we"ve all been there). 

[troubled joe]

[Swinebag]

Tough one for me. I"d have probably donked off half my stack as well and would struggle to play this hand well from SB.

My  (limited) thinking is.......

I"d have put myself behind his range but would 3 bet pre flop (say to 2K). If he called I"d Cbet on that flop (3K) and would not put another chip in after that. I"d let the hand go to any show of strength after that meaning I"d probably lost as many chips as you, (but not quite as many)

The 3 bet pre flop may win the hand there and then which is normally the best chance to win with jacks. If you get rereraised you know you are done with them.

I"ll let the experts disect this post and yours as I"ve only replied to this because I"ve lost chips for england with JJ and want help with my play too!

PS I bet he had JJ too!!

this took me so long to write, that i missed 4 replies

[lukybugur]

I can"t fault Zanshin"s assessment of the situation. Well done Derek, you win a prize for guessing AK!  

I would have put him on overcards to the flop but less than your JJ - 99 or TT. Would I have risked my MTT life on it though - probably not!

[AMRN]

I would question your call preflop, and what you were hoping for on the flop. The flop has brought all undercards, which should be the perfect flop for your overpair, but if you think you are behind at this point you shouldn"t have called preflop. I would have re-raised preflop to try find out where I am.....

[kinboshi]

Doesn"t a check-raise give you the same result, but for fewer chips?

[lukybugur]

Agree with Kin - a check>raise on the flop is the best way of getting the info you need on this hand IMO

[AMRN]

not necessarily. Preflop, given that the original raise was to 600, you would need to re-raise to around 1800 to get your info......   If you just call and check the flop, the UTG raiser could well bet the pot (1800) when checked to, so to check-raise you will need to pay out minimum 3600, plus your 600 preflop = 4200 - compared to a re-re-raise to 1800 preflop.  That said, clearly the AK is calling your preflop re-re-raise to see the flop, but is highly likely to play the flop a little slower given that you re-re-raised preflop.

Either way, JJ is just one of those horrible hands to play when someone raises before you - chuck them away

[kinboshi]

If you re-raise pre-flop and get re-re-raised and that leads to you folding, then you"ve made a mistake as you"ve folded the best hand.

You don"t have any info - you"re up against AK (a hand you"re beating), and you end up laying it down?

[REvans84]

Like Kinboshi said there is alot of play (Your M is 40) so I think the call pre flop is fine.
But being out of position I would mostly prefer to raise in this situation.
But you obviously have to mix up your play and if I decided to call this time I would be check raising that particular flop like Kinboshi too.

With you not raising pre flop the original raiser could think you have a worse ace or some such hand and with you leading out and him min raising you he actually might think he has the best hand and he has alot of outs going into the turn if you do call.
You don"t really know where you stand. Does he have something or does he just not believe you and is he making a move?

If you check, I would expect him to C bet and then I would put in a big re-raise with the 2 hearts out there.
If he calls I would be done with the hand.

[George2Loose]

I don"t think there"s any right or wrong way to play this hand. The blinds are small and personally I would elect to flat call pre flop mainly due to the fact that I"m out of position and like to keep pots small when OOP esp when raise is from UTG.

The key to the flop is as follows:

If you lead the flop (as you did) and get re raised you SHOULD fold.

However the mini raise suggests the initial raiser has two overcards and a flush draw. If he had QQ, KK, AA usually players on this sort of board would raise big to protect there pair.

Personally I prefer the check/call option on the flop. Again I"m trying to keep the pot small as I"m unsure of the the villian has at this stage.