Cash Tour 2012

[Delboy]

The extra side event is what makes APAT events what they are; you bust the main you can have a laugh and play the side. Most will agree with me that they are traveling to APAT events to play TOURNAMENTS and NOT CASH games.

If I wanted to play some cash I would stay at home.

Its a shame there is not going to be a side event at Brighton; I hope this will not be the case for any future events.

Lukas

The side events have only been going two years, so I would suggest that most people travel to APAT events for the one tournament. All other poker is a bonus. remember there is more to poker than tournies.

This Idea of Des seems a good way for tourny players to dip their toes in the  waters of cash games without being bitten by too many sharks, and should be applauded imo.

[pables]

I"m not knocking the idea, I would however knock my ability to play cash rationally  

[Des]

Thanks for all the feedback so far everyone, which is excellent.

Two things.

1) Don"t worry about anything you say being perceived as negative.  Ultimately this is a trial and highlighting issues is no bad thing right now.  This format will not be for everyone, I"ll be the first to acknowledge that.

2)  If the trial works; and one way or another I"m sure we"ll learn something from it, it is likely that we would promote the idea to higher end cash players with the objective of creating a destination series for them.  In that scenario I don"t see any reason why we would not retain the APAT side event also.  A busy casino on a Sunday is a win win for all.

Please remember, we"re in the business of trying to improve things for our players, not reduce your enjoyment.  It"s a tough market and we appreciate your loyalty and custom.  But we also have a record of innovation and a lot of the tours that exist in the UK today are as a result of APAT's innovation back in 2006.  We are not owned by an online poker operator so cannot offer the large guarantees (we wouldn"t want to extend beyond two day events anyway), but we do enjoy being the first to identify and introduce a format; as we did with team games for example. 

So right now, we"re planning to have some fun with this one and we"d like you guys to be excited about it to.  It may only be a one off for you at these buy in levels, or indeed it might be canned after Brighton.  Let"s give it a shot.

[Des]

I"m surprised at the £9 max for the rake. In Vegas you can sit down at a $1/$2 table with $300 and the rake will be the same 5%, but with a maximum of $5. Basically nearly every significant pot had a $5 rake.

I think a £5 max would be fairer, so any pot over £100 would have the same rake. I shouldn"t think there would be that many pots over £100 (perhaps towards the end - see above), so perhaps it wouldn"t make much difference. I can"t do the Maths off the top of my head, but how much of the total money on all tables will end up in the Dealers" trays? It was always disconcerting in Vegas, during a long cash session, how often the Dealer needed change for his/her tray. The stacks of $1 chips that appeared was essentially the rake for the last hour or so.

I agree with the points made above about table balancing (moving the smallest stake makes sense) and taking the top 10 stacks. Imagine being the 3rd highest stack, but the only two bigger stacks are on your table - gutted!

Sounds great. I"m almost looking forward to going out on Day 1!

We would be using the casino"s standard rake structure, which Tighty has confirmed at 5% / max £9 per pot.  

[Des]

Not going to Brighton but if I was I"d defo give it a go.

I reckon the rake taken at 9% in a 6 hour sesh would be around the £600 Mark if the pots are ave about £20 and 20-25 hands/hour

GL with this

Thanks Iain.

5%!

[Des]

Great idea - allow (a few) more re-buys??

Only starting 100BB"s deep.

I would drop the Grinder"s payment - you may create some odd incentives for the final table - if someone has built a mega stack by say 8.30pm they could dwell/fold their way to the £500.

Why not have 50 runners from start to finish - top profit wins a trophy?

Why kick out 40 runners after three hours?

L

Some of the elements that we"re proposing are to create a tournament dynamic of sorts; but with players playing with their own cash.  I think it introduces a lot of unknown variables (greed, panic etc) and I could see the final"s being streamed live for their drama.

That said we have four week prior to doling out the cash chips.  Plenty of time to add or amend the format depending what is suggested in this thread.

[Des]

It"s always nice to see some innovation and I have no problem with a trial.

It"s not something I can see myself playing and for that reason I find it a shame that, if successful, this will replace the Side Events.

Yes, I know that, apart from DTD, they"ve nearly all been PLO but at least something other than NLHE is being offered. How are we to promote the spreading of other poker variants if we dump the side events in favour of what is, in effect, already being offered by the casino...to wit...a HE cash game?

The Side Events were a reason for me, and many others, to hang around on Sunday after, as usual, bombing out of the Main Event thus making the trip a little more value for money. It would be a BIG shame to see them go.

Notwithstanding that I won"t be partaking, I do find the idea of rake being taken in what is essentially a tournament somewhat disturbing. This looks like a definite money maker (ahem) for the Casino but -EV for the players.

I"m also disturbed by APAT charging a fee.

I"m assuming since APAT are taking the fee that this is not a mis-named casino fee (they"re already getting a GENEROUS rake FFS). If this is an APAT event it should be reg free....it"s the APAT ethos.

If it is a casino fee I think it would be more appropriate to increase this to a more standard % and cut the rake.

Like I said, I won"t be playing in this...I"ll be trying to get Side Event SNG"s off the ground...or at the bar.

Agreed on side events and I"ve commented elsewhere that I find it unlikely that this will replace those games.

The APAT fee is solely as titled.  as a five year old "business" in a tightening market, it makes sense that we assert some control in managing our income.  The Cash Tour if it happens, will not be heavily APAT branded, and will work to a different financial model.  Remember this concept won"t exist online, so is unlikely to generate sponsorship in the same way that the APAT tour does.

Remember also; and I haven"t seen anyone suggest this yet, there is no reason why the Cash Tour could not be positioned as dealer"s choice.  

[Des]

Will there be a buffet?

I"ve stayed out of that negotiation in favour of Tighty.  

In all seriousness, probably not.

[Paulie_D]

I have spoken to the Rendezvous card room and they inform me that they are still running their own tourney on the Sunday which is

£45 Super Turbo Freezeout
£6 reg
20,000 chips1
15 minute blinds
£1500 guaranteed with 15 players from the start

If you wanna steer clear of cash like me  

Not exactly the same as a side event IMO...more frikkin HE.

Unless I"m Day Twoing...I"ll be heading home...shame really.

[Des]

Its a very interesting idea Des. Here are my thoughts:

The rake/ fee and Jackpot (Grinder payment) combo make it a very expensive game to play and long term - ev for the players. I would suggest a jackpot drop from each pot over say £20 to add to the Grinder pool for the prize. The rake seems fine but I dunno about the fee aswell.

The idea of balancing tables is fine, surely they would self balance anyway as the big stacks will want to go where the money is? The Jackpot is, after all a bonus, the main idea is to make money.

The time limit is about right.

I"m not too worried about the 100bb start. Its deep enough and replicates online.

Are we allowed to do deals for the jackpot?

Thanks Del and good idea with regards the Grinder drop.  The only point that I would make on that is that we want players to be "invested" in the idea of being the last person standing / biggest cash winner.  That"s the unknown dynamic in this game.  Perhaps it will become a crazy gambling game at certain points and some will stand and walk away with their stack, perhaps not.  I think I"d like to see the Grinder element retained for the trial to see what happens, but your idea certainly has merits. 

With regards deals, I think it would be better for the game if the Grinder payment was a unique final prize.  As someone said above, it"s a £20 last longer effectively.

[Des]

the more I think about this, and having read all the feedback so far..... this doesn"t feel like a cash game at all - it would appear to be just a tournament by another name, with most of the usual tournament dynamics, but far more heavily taxed than any tournament I ever play in.  The grinder pot would make such a huge influence that it turns the "final table" into a winner takes all STT.

I wouldn"t perceive it like that Steve.  You will be playing with cash chips on a non increasing blind structure for three hours.  Your investment into the Grinder pot would be £10 and if for example you were £70 up on your initial buy in there would be nothing to stop you standing at that point and walking away with your cash.  It"s a slightly different concept with elements of both tournaments and cash.

[mporter123]

Without wanting to bang the same drum again - lets not lose the side events.

I plan my APAT events as weekends now, booking days off work either side as I am sure that many do. I have done this for Brighton but will now likely be heading home after the main event. I come to APAT events to play well structured tourneys hence the Super turbo freezeout offered by the casino is not my cup of tea. I am sure the concept of it will be liked by some. I have had a good think about it but cant really work out its appeal.

I like an innovative APAT but I am really disappointed side event wont be held at Brighton. Will have to find fish at the aquarium instead.

[TheSnapper]

2)  If the trial works; and one way or another I"m sure we"ll learn something from it, it is likely that we would promote the idea to higher end cash players with the objective of creating a destination series for them.  In that scenario I don"t see any reason why we would not retain the APAT side event also.  A busy casino on a Sunday is a win win for all.

I suspect that within this target audience game/table selection skills are a considerable factor in their profitability. You take that edge away from them in the proposed format. It could be that the changing endgame dynamic may compensate, not sure how that would pan out to be honest.

How about mimicing "The Big Game" where as an added value prize we stake an Apat"er into a private cash game as "The Loose Cannon" and sell seats in the game to whomever ( ie: 5% of buy in). The cannon gets to keep profit and top performer over the series wins a seat, a trophy or

Not wanting to pour scorn over your idea Des, just thinking out loud

[Delboy]

The more I think about it, the more I like it. It will be great fun! Please don"t let Brighton be a one off.

I really want to play a season of these at the levels stated in the OP

[Chipaccrual]

I"m going to try not to be a negative about this.

FAIL