Flush draw (too passive ??)

[Erimus]

10k gteed Stars $33, 15 left i have 51 bigs villain just come to the table no hands on him, questions are

1) Is 3 bet too small ? if so how much do you 3 bet here or is flatting an option ?

2) After flop should i lead out here or take the free card after villain has checked ?

I bet 12k into 25k pot on the turn, again too small or would you bet bigger ?

The river bricked here for me, he lead out, i folded, is K high any good here do you think ? looking at board and without any info fairly sure he has A high hand and could of easily connected with this board, had 40 bigs left so thought the fold was the better option.

pokerStars Hand #75631390275: Tournament #560010193, $30+$3 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level XV (1000/2000) - 2012/02/24 13:54:59
Table "560010193 19" 9-max Seat #4 is the button
Seat 1: cohen8 (70836 in chips)
Seat 2: ship"em84 (73545 in chips)
Seat 3: Starshii (60708 in chips)
Seat 4: vvbunde (89052 in chips)
Seat 5: erimus14 (103356 in chips)
Seat 6: brdave (69468 in chips)
Seat 7: aJarov (28056 in chips)
Seat 8: b&mAKQJA (78180 in chips)
Seat 9: kalimist (89726 in chips)
cohen8: posts the ante 200
ship"em84: posts the ante 200
Starshii: posts the ante 200
vvbunde: posts the ante 200
erimus14: posts the ante 200
brdave: posts the ante 200
aJarov: posts the ante 200
b&mAKQJA: posts the ante 200
kalimist: posts the ante 200
erimus14: posts small blind 1000
brdave: posts big blind 2000
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to erimus14 [ ]
aJarov: folds
b&mAKQJA: folds
kalimist: folds
cohen8: folds
ship"em84: folds
Starshii: folds
vvbunde: raises 2500 to 4500
erimus14: raises 6500 to 11000
brdave: folds
vvbunde: calls 6500
*** FLOP *** [ ]
erimus14: checks
vvbunde: checks
*** TURN *** [ ] []
erimus14: bets 12000
vvbunde: calls 12000
*** RIVER *** [ ] []
erimus14: checks
vvbunde: bets 22000
erimus14: folds
Uncalled bet (22000) returned to vvbunde
vvbunde collected 49800 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 49800 | Rake 0
Board [Th Tc]
Seat 1: cohen8 folded before Flop (didn"t bet)
Seat 2: ship"em84 folded before Flop (didn"t bet)
Seat 3: Starshii folded before Flop (didn"t bet)
Seat 4: vvbunde (button) collected (49800)
Seat 5: erimus14 (small blind) folded on the River
Seat 6: brdave (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 7: aJarov folded before Flop (didn"t bet)
Seat 8: b&mAKQJA folded before Flop (didn"t bet)
Seat 9: kalimist folded before Flop (didn"t bet)

[deanp27]

If you are 3betting pre I am definitely c-betting this flop

[AMRN]

Your 3b size pre mandates that he calls you with any two cards, and then he has position on you for the rest of the hand. If he were the cutoff and you were the button, I would like your 3b size, as you would be playing position..... therefore I think I either 3b more pre, or without any info on the guy, and being out of position, folding is also fine.

As played, having 3b pre, I"m never checking that flop unless the intention is to check-raise (probably check-shove), but we don"t know whether he has a tendency to check behind or to play aggressively.... so better to take the aggressive line from the outset and c-bet.... at this point, having 3b oop and followed with a c-bet, you are repping a pretty strong holding, and a weak player will fold a lot of the time..... but it then comes back to you not have any info about the guy and whether he is a weak player, or someone who may call pre in position and then float your c-bet.

tbh, with 50 BBs, playing oop against an unknown player, I think there is a strong argument for folding pre.

Once it gets to the river, you cannot make an informed decision as to how often your king hi may be good, as you have no info to refer back to about his floaty/bluffy/trappy type tendencies.

[Erimus]

If you are 3betting pre I am definitely c-betting this flop

In hindsight c betting the flop and re assessing the turn prob should be the way to go, ty for your input.

[Erimus]

Your 3b size pre mandates that he calls you with any two cards, and then he has position on you for the rest of the hand. If he were the cutoff and you were the button, I would like your 3b size, as you would be playing position..... therefore I think I either 3b more pre, or without any info on the guy, and being out of position, folding is also fine.

As played, having 3b pre, I"m never checking that flop unless the intention is to check-raise (probably check-shove), but we don"t know whether he has a tendency to check behind or to play aggressively.... so better to take the aggressive line from the outset and c-bet.... at this point, having 3b oop and followed with a c-bet, you are repping a pretty strong holding, and a weak player will fold a lot of the time..... but it then comes back to you not have any info about the guy and whether he is a weak player, or someone who may call pre in position and then float your c-bet.

tbh, with 50 BBs, playing oop against an unknown player, I think there is a strong argument for folding pre.



Once it gets to the river, you cannot make an informed decision as to how often your king hi may be good, as you have no info to refer back to about his floaty/bluffy/trappy type tendencies.

Cheers ste, just checked on hem, I was button, villain was cut off but agree about the 3 bet size, i was giving him decent odds to call, but with 50 bigs didn"t want to get it all in with KQ off, that"s probably the nittier side of me coming in to play, although with him only calling the 3 bet didn"t put him on AK or AQ so could of been good, ty for your input

[AMRN]

just checked on hem, I was button

That would make a massive difference to the responses you would get - however your Hand History in the original post says "erimus14: posts small blind 1000"

The rest of the HH shows you acting first, so you must be SB, not button.

[Erimus]

just checked on hem, I was button

That would make a massive difference to the responses you would get - however your Hand History in the original post says "erimus14: posts small blind 1000"

The rest of the HH shows you acting first, so you must be SB, not button.

sorry my bad was small blind, i was convinced i was button thats were it went wrong lol.

[deanp27]

3Bet size is fine btw and I also think calling pre is fine, not folding though ever preflop. KQs is just about the prettiest starting hand ever in no limit hold"em.

I bet/3bet the flop or barrel turn if called. As played I would just give up as you did, without any further specific info

[deanp27]

Also k hi beats absolutely nothing that he floats with except j9hh. Calling river is out of the question and c/raise bluff is too unlikely unless he value bets really thin but you rep nothing by the river

[Swinebag]

3 bet size is fine. Villain has position so will call with a decent amount of his opening range.

This is a good flop for you, so c betting the flop is a must. If that is flatted then I would use reads/tendencies to decide whether I carry on or not. Without reads, I check give up.

Your line was ok though and lost the same though

[Marty719]

My clip would be empty....

Checking this flop as other people have stated is pretty criminal.  Even if we r trying to go for the flop c/r, we rep very little.  B/3B is def my prefered line on this flop, or if flatted, Im gng to continue on pretty much every turn except 10"s.  The fact that we are down to the final 15, will increase our fold equity massively and not exploiting these situations at this stages in tournaments will often be the difference between top 3 finishes, and frustrating "almost there" finishes...

Another good reason for bet/calling flop, is we can get inferior draws to jam.  He has very few nfd"s as we expect his good Ax hands to 4b pre.

[George2Loose]

Sizing is fine. Always bet flop and turn.

[TheSnapper]

10k gteed Stars $33, 15 left i have 51 bigs villain just come to the table no hands on him, questions are

1) Is 3 bet too small ? if so how much do you 3 bet here or is flatting an option ?

2) After flop should i lead out here or take the free card after villain has checked ?

I bet 12k into 25k pot on the turn, again too small or would you bet bigger ?

3bet size is fine, flop is pretty decent for your hand so you must bet.

Why did you consider 3 betting a better option than flatting?

Curious about the pro"s and con"s of 3 betting pre, do we all agree 3 betting for value is best against an unknown button raise.

[Fatcatstu]

10k gteed Stars $33, 15 left i have 51 bigs villain just come to the table no hands on him, questions are

1) Is 3 bet too small ? if so how much do you 3 bet here or is flatting an option ?

2) After flop should i lead out here or take the free card after villain has checked ?

I bet 12k into 25k pot on the turn, again too small or would you bet bigger ?

3bet size is fine, flop is pretty decent for your hand so you must bet.

Why did you consider 3 betting a better option than flatting?

Curious about the pro"s and con"s of 3 betting pre, do we all agree 3 betting for value is best against an unknown button raise.

like the sizing Brian, nothing wrong there. please c bet this flop and bet turn too in future.

[Swinebag]

I have a few questions@ the "bet flop and turn" crew.

If we fire out on the flop and turn, we leave ourselves a nice 3 quarter ish pot sized river bet to fire off our third barrell.

All but one have not given a plan for the river. What is your plan? Only Marty has said "unload the clip". Just curious that a lot of people have said bluff/semi bluff 2 streets with no advice on the river.

FWIW, I have already said that any bet on the turn would be based on reads/tendencies. If I did bet the turn it would be with the intention of shoving most rivers. What rivers would people who bet flop and turn give up on?


Also think Brendan"s point about 3 betting pre is very valid. I would auto 3 bet here, because I like doing it a lot but the argument for playing a smaller pot OOP against an unknown is fair enough.

Also question for Brian. If there are 15 left, how come you are playing on a full 9 man table?? has there just been 2 (or 3??) exits on the other table?