Match Structure

[gerry5421]

Des

thanks for setting the league up and attracting a sponsor.
thanks for listening to the concerns of some of the APAT members after week one and trying to find a solution to those concerns
unfortunately you are never going to find a structure that makes everyone happy.

I know you are too polite to respond to all the criticism, moaning and sniping that is going on... so let me.....

Lets just play league poker on a Sunday night and enjoy it.

Its a good way to finish the weekend by spending $11

+2

[WYoung83]

 Agree with some of what u are saying. Well done to Apat for attracting stars for us to play this etc,  but its not just about spending $11 is it?
 It runs 15 legs, so to play them all which most people will do i think, and to make it worth while and have a proper crack at getting some points on the board its more of an advantade to play everyone from the start. So its an outlay of $165 ( still not very much at all i know). But to say its just $11 at the end of the week is a bit irrelevant dont you think? Its not like its a one off home game where people are dicking around is it?
 And imo we are very lucky to have it on the best poker site out there and hope it stays on stars for future seasons. So i think its a bit of a shame that we havent found somthing that suites everyone. But im sure they are working on it.

[Joker161]

OK, my turn...

I though the first week was excellent, but agree that the very late finish was not ideal. I found the second week"s structure surprisingly quick (I don"t know why, but I thought the change wouldn"t make too much difference), but only relative to the previous week; it was still a pretty slow tournament. As many have said, it still lasted six hours.

To be honest, I don"t mind what we go for, I"ll try and play whenever I can. Although I haven"t read all the comments, has anyone said how much better it is that last year"s set up? I"m loving the fact that we are all playing in one big tournament rather than lots of smaller ones!

Looking forward to Sunday! Keep up the good work, APAT!

[deanp27]

At last some sensible reasoned posts. some of the stuff a few pages ago was way over the top and I am afraid doesn"t reflect well.
I enjoy playing these games and you obviously can"t please everyone so a sensible structure needed to be found. I"d love to be able to play for 8hrs+ on a Sunday but I can"t (certainly not on a regular basis anyway). I think the last game was ok, but I can"t think of a much better alternative without starting the game earlier. All tournaments have inflection points where there are periods of lolflipaments (even APAT live 2 dayers have certain points where there is just loads of preflop flips around the 300/600 400/800 level for example - cant expand further as I am usually at the bar by then) so people just need to manage their stack and play better IMO.

[dwh103]

I believe it"s fair to assume that people posting in this thread are more likely to be on the more serious side about poker than the average. Adapting to the structure, no problem for me or the majority of you lot. But APAT prides itself on offering player friendly structures, and I don"t believe either week 1 or week 2 got it quite right. There will be (relatively speaking) novice players who are spending more on a poker tournament than they usually do and I strongly believe they need to get some bang for their buck. Surely these are the players we need to attract and keep? Someone correct me if I"m wrong.

An hour before the maths freaks (guilty) start open jamming their 20BB stacks isn"t enough for the casual player - most people do not enjoy jam/fold poker, they want to play poker and that"s more than fair enough! (I"m basing this statement on my experience at the local casino and in the past running the biggest student poker society in the UK - 150 players, 5 hours and trying to design a structure to match).

Adding 1,000 chips to stacks and keeping the same structure will not make any significant difference to the tournament. You might get 10 minutes longer before hitting shove/fold.

Current structure is:

10/20 (30)
15/30 (45)
25/50 (75)
50/100 (150)
75/150 (225)
100/200 (300)
125/250/25 (600)
150/300/25 (675)
200/400/50 (1050)
300/600/50 (1350)
400/800/75 (1875)
500/1000/100 (2400) etc

As Dean said, there are inflection points in every tournament (mainly when the starting stacks who"ve dribbled down hit short stack mode, however I think it occurs at the wrong time. There"s a big jump from level 6 to level 7 when antes come in, right at the point where starting stacks suddenly hit 20BBs. However, I don"t think it"s far away from being as good as it can be in the time allowed. I"d personally suggest a 100/200/25 level instead of 125/250/25, and perhaps an extra level or two inserted in the first 3 or 4, losing a later level if necessary. Should be possible to eek out an extra 30 minutes of play before shove-shove-shove, which should allow more time for stacks to diverge and ease the path of eliminations. All without affecting the finish time.

I will of course support APAT regardless of whatever decisions made, and recognise Des, Tighty et al do a great job given the balancing act of a number of different opinions floating around. There"s always room for constructive comments - hope this is seen as such. Good luck

[WYoung83]

 Good post. Although id rather see the clock changed back to 15 mins rather than changing the blind structure ( i actually think blind structure is fine) and i think that we should start with only a 15 sec time bank (not sure what its at now) and once past 2nd break or itm then add more seconds to the bank.

[AMRN]

Whether the starting stack is 4k or 5k, the usual nit players will hit the wall at some point, and the time difference won"t be that great. 4k is 200xBB - and with 12 minute blinds, that should be ample early wiggle room for most, and as Dean says, just make sure you adapt.  We could start with 20k, and the nits would still hit the wall, just much later - but that doesn"t mean it"s a "better" tourney, just a "slower" tourney.

imo 4k/12 is fine..... although, if you look at many of the Stars Big tourneys, they run with 3k/15, and seem to be a little smoother than pour week 2 was. I wonder if the transitions are a little shallower in these tourneys.

Understand the clock and blind structure before the game starts, and then play to suit. 4k/12 is hardly a short-stacked turbo ffs!

[Honeybadg]

As I understand it.

Most people who expressed a perference loved week 1 - (want a deeper structure if possible)
Most people who expressed a perference disliked week 2 - (It became a shovefest to soon)
Most (but not all) of the captains wanted 5K,12 mins for week 2

The key constraint is that the tournament finishes by c1am - which it very likely would with either 4k, 12 mins or 5k, 12 mins.

The change to 5k, would only give those players who want to be active an extra 10/15 mins to accrue chips - seems a small price to pay in that the tournament might finish 15 mins later.

It"s true no structure can ever stop a true and pure nitfest getting to all-in/fold territory - but better to give people as much time as possible to play and have the chance to avoid this.

One of the few weaknesses of the APAT is the nitty play in the tournaments. It"s brilliant fun to play against but you need as much time as possible before the first pinch in the tournament.

As others have said - great play in setting up the 400/500 runner format for a Sunday night - tremendous event - a great chance to play as part of a team - is there a final tweak to make it an even better event?

L

[Curlarge]

As I understand it.

Most people who expressed a perference loved week 1 - (want a deeper structure if possible)
Most people who expressed a perference disliked week 2 - (It became a shovefest to soon)
Most (but not all) of the captains wanted 5K,12 mins for week 2

The key constraint is that the tournament finishes by c1am - which it very likely would with either 4k, 12 mins or 5k, 12 mins.

The change to 5k, would only give those players who want to be active an extra 10/15 mins to accrue chips - seems a small price to pay in that the tournament might finish 15 mins later.

It"s true no structure can ever stop a true and pure nitfest getting to all-in/fold territory - but better to give people as much time as possible to play and have the chance to avoid this.

One of the few weaknesses of the APAT is the nitty play in the tournaments. It"s brilliant fun to play against but you need as much time as possible before the first pinch in the tournament.

As others have said - great play in setting up the 400/500 runner format for a Sunday night - tremendous event - a great chance to play as part of a team - is there a final tweak to make it an even better event?

L

Agree 100% with this.

[Scousebill]

I was in two minds about how last week went.... I am not too maths minded to work out structures and levels and estimated times so I normally just judge on how long I stay in.. It was Mothers Day and after spending some time with mothers and other various female members celebrating this day I had to take advantage of the late reg. I think that I set out a bit too quick as I felt I had to catch up in some way. It did feel as if things were quicker than the week before but I put it down to joining in at higher blinds. With that in mind the "pinch point" came for me earlier than 75 minutes but I more than doubled up with a 3 handed all-in call. Patience is what kills me, or more the lack of it. When the small stacks were trying their luck with shoves then that is when I lacked patience and fell one or two places before the pennies. I think I am drawn to week twos structure but maybe thats because I went deeper. I look forward to my weekly League Game and to be honest any structure that is not Turbo, which this certainly was not in my view, is good for me... Cheers..

[alsomati]

Wel I don"t really care if it"s anything between a 2 day grind or a 1 chip flip to be honest I just like playing in it, already regd and waiting for Sunday .....go south east..

[galo5767]

IMO I think the League should have been left as it was first place.
The fact that many people have already correctly stated "you cant keep everyone happy" actually means once you open this topic up for feedback you are indeed going to make some people unhappy.
I joined APAT in the June of S4 and have played all the Online Nationals* since then. I played the National League once in S4 and once in S5, if I remember correctly there was nothing like 500 entrants in either season, so I dont understand why we should need feedback when 547 runners played in the first week. If it aint broke - dont fix it. Surely the numbers of entries are the only feedback you need.
I have no doubt whatsoever that the reason there is a large number of players this year has got nothing to do with the structure but is actually down to two simple factors:
1. Its on Pokerstars
2. Identity with a team. ( if you live 20 miles from Newcastle do you really feel part of a Newcastle team or would you prefer a NE team).
Most of these type of threads end up the way - someone says black, someone says white, someone posts thinking they are an authority on the matter, then someone posts using great diplomacy.
People spend a lot of time and effort setting up an APAT season, if you dont agree with some aspects of it - get over it.
Online Nats - I"ve played them all since mid s4- avg turnout 70 -150 plys. If APAT had announced S6 Nats were going to be turbos and you got 400 entrants, who am I to complain.
The numbers tell the real story

[WYoung83]

The first paragrpah is like reading my mind. Only i struggled to put it into words.

My fav post in this thread.

[Scousebill]

My favourite post is this one...

[technolog]

That is a very good post galo. But I"d still prefer week 1"s structure with 12 min levels