Another PLO Thread - AA with a flopped nut straight

[AAroddersAA]

As there were some very good reponses to the thread I posted yesterday I thought I would do another one.

ljpuster = VP$IP: 41% / PFR: 10% / 3-Bet: 6% (Over 61 hands)
Me playing about 52/39/23 with a 4-bet of 6%

No notes on ljpuster and honestly don"t know how he doubled through. I have been playing VERY LAG and taking down loads of pots to the stage where everybody must have noticed it. I have not folded to 3-bets pre at all I don"t think.

We are 500BB effective stacks here and we have AA on the button. These aces are not very good though, it"s effectively two holdem hands. When it folds to me I raise as the hand is certainly good enough to raise the button.

Small Blind 3-bets me to 15BB and I the 4-bet to 46BB. Thought"s on this play? Is it poor given the stack sizes as I can"t really get much money in compared to stack sizes and I am probably rarely going to flop that good, but I am in position. The BB calls me. What sort of hands do we think the BB has here?

On a side note if he really wants to go for it with these stacks and pots me again should I consider folding? (I honestly have no idea on the answer to this question)

Flop comes down - BINK. I flopped the nuts with blockers to the flush draw. I could not really ask for much more than that. I put out a near full pot bet on this board. Is this good or bad? My opponent calls. Do we like my play and what sort of hands do we think are calling us here?

The turn card is good for me but does put another flush draw out there. He checks to me again. I bet out close to the full pot as I really need to protect the hand here. Do we like this play? Would anybody do anything different, what does my opponent have (I was confused at this point).

River is a horrible card for me and now all kinds of hand beat me. My opponent shoves. Do you call? What do you think he has?

How have I played the hand? Would you play it different pre or on any of the streets. What are we putting our opponent on and do we call the river (we have to I think but would anybody fold)?

PokerStars Hand #76632102162:  Omaha Pot Limit ($0.05/$0.10 USD) - 2012/03/04 16:15:59 WET [2012/03/04 11:15:59 ET]
Table "Juhani V" 6-max Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: 33teetwo33 ($64.11 in chips)
Seat 2: Olegann ($17.06 in chips)
Seat 3: ljpuster ($50.89 in chips)
Seat 5: nePeBo34uk ($28.60 in chips)
Seat 6: royaldave19 ($49.55 in chips)
Olegann: posts small blind $0.05
ljpuster: posts big blind $0.10
33teetwo33: posts the ante $0.02
Olegann: posts the ante $0.02
ljpuster: posts the ante $0.02
nePeBo34uk: posts the ante $0.02
royaldave19: posts the ante $0.02
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to 33teetwo33 [ ]
nePeBo34uk: folds
royaldave19: folds
33teetwo33: raises $0.35 to $0.45
Olegann: folds
ljpuster: raises $1.05 to $1.50
33teetwo33: raises $3.15 to $4.65
ljpuster: calls $3.15
*** FLOP *** [ Td]
ljpuster: checks
Grek777 joins the table at seat #4
33teetwo33: bets $9
ljpuster: calls $9
*** TURN *** [ Td] []
ljpuster: checks
33teetwo33: bets $25
ljpuster: calls $25
*** RIVER *** [ Td ] [Tc]
ljpuster: bets $12.22 and is all-in
33teetwo33: Hates Life?

[Paulie_D]

Steve,

Firstly, you might get better responses to your individual questions if you don"t give us the full details all at once.

Perhaps just post the flop, get some answers...then the turn, ask more and the finally the river. Just a suggestion.

Now...on with it.

Unsuited aces are just asking to get outdrawn and so I don"t 4 bet here but I understand your reasoning. That said, in previous threads you mention that players define their hands as AA in situations such at these and you seem to have done the same.

Once the flop comes down it"s pot pot pot all day long, same on the turn.

As you said, the river is horrible but with something like $75 in the pot and only $12 to call I think you have to make it crying all the way.

[AMRN]

I don"t mind your play on all streets to be honest.  Calling the 3b pre would not be optimal - keep the aggression going with the 4b.  He"s  probably expecting you to c-bet most of the time, so he won"t necessarily believe you just flopped the nuts. Having called your pot bet on the flop, he"s probably calling all the way, so definitely right to pot the turn.  The river is irrelevant - you"re both totally committed anyway - the fact that it"s a horrid card for you should not stop you making a pretty trivial call, and if he"s got there, then well played him, reload, and take it all back

[AAroddersAA]

The response on these hands are excellent, thanks guy"s this part of the forums needs the be used more.

Unsuited aces are just asking to get outdrawn and so I don"t 4 bet here but I understand your reasoning. That said, in previous threads you mention that players define their hands as AA in situations such at these and you seem to have done the same.

I agree. My range in close to being just AA, although I MIGHT sometimes 4-bet a double suited rundown, AA makes up a LOT of my range here. I am not sure how I should be responding to a 5-bet either, which is the main issue with the 4-bet. If I had say Ac10cAdJd I would know I could shove over the top of the 5-bet but if he is holding a hand like that I don"t have enough equity to continue. Should I be worrying about this?

You said that you would not 4-bet and I think there is some merit to this because of the stack sizes. Most of the time the hand won"t flop very well. Is it an auto 4-bet 100BB deep?

Steve thinks this is a 4-bet and I still slightly favor that approach as I am on the button. I think it"s just a call out of position. I should be +EV playing the pot in position though.

As Played:-
How do you respond if he pots it over the top of the 4-bet pre? Is this really a hand we want to get 500BB in with preflop?

[AMRN]

As Played:-
How do you respond if he pots it over the top of the 4-bet pre? Is this really a hand we want to get 500BB in with preflop?

This is the bit where I fall apart. I"m a Holdem player who is trying to convert to Omaha, and as a HE player, I just don"t have it in me to fold AA preflop. So yes, probably very wrongly, I would get it in here.

[Jon MW]

As Played:-
How do you respond if he pots it over the top of the 4-bet pre? Is this really a hand we want to get 500BB in with preflop?

This is the bit where I fall apart. I"m a Holdem player who is trying to convert to Omaha, and as a HE player, I just don"t have it in me to fold AA preflop. So yes, probably very wrongly, I would get it in here.

In HE you"re likely to be about 80% favourite pre - in Omaha you"re more likely to be about 60-odd percent favourite.

I can see the argument about just getting your chips in as favourite, but there has to be a cut-off point where your chances of being outdrawn plus the size of the chipstacks is just too high to risk it all pre? Isn"t there?

[dwh103]

I hate the 4bet pre. I"d only advocate if he"s the kind of player that needs to flop the nuts to continue.

The average player rightly or wrongly will immediately put you on AAxx, and in this case be correct. In addition your hand flops so poorly this might as well be a stone bluff with any 4. I"d rather 4bet a random double suited hand here. Aggression is fine but this is the wrong hand to do it with imo.

What do you hope to achieve with a 4bet?
- If your opponent 5bets, you"ll have to get it in I reckon, you"re 41% vs AAKK with your suit dominated, but you"ll probably average better than 45/55 (which is around break even) if he only ever has AAxx and no other holdings.
- Him folding is your nut outcome, but with the stack sizes I can"t see many villains 3bet-folding here.
- Most of the time he calls and you play your hand in a 100BB pot where you"re unlikely to improve and Villain probably thinks you have the hand you have. Auto 4bet if stacks are <150BBs, maybe slightly bigger.

As played, pot, pot, call. Not sure what he has, you"d think with a made hand he"d CRAI on the turn and it"s hard to see him with a draw that isn"t a massive one that could"ve reraised before the river. You still beat the odd hand he might think is winning, so call away.

If you held a gun to my head I would guess he has some rundownish type of hand that"s flopped top two or pair + OESD.

[AAroddersAA]

What do you hope to achieve with a 4bet?
- If your opponent 5bets, you"ll have to get it in I reckon, you"re 41% vs AAKK with your suit dominated, but you"ll probably average better than 45/55 (which is around break even) if he only ever has AAxx and no other holdings.
- Him folding is your nut outcome, but with the stack sizes I can"t see many villains 3bet-folding here.
- Most of the time he calls and you play your hand in a 100BB pot where you"re unlikely to improve and Villain probably thinks you have the hand you have. Auto 4bet if stacks are <150BBs, maybe slightly bigger.

Well with the 4-bet I get to play a bigger pot in position which is quite useful in PLO. I can see what you are saying though I swell the pot with a hand that is going to be difficult to play post flop and it is not at all unreasonable for him to put me on AA and can therefore put me to very tough decisions in the hand.

We are about 41% Vs AAKK double suited and the same Vs AAJT but against most suited aces we are about 45%. Reading this the 4-bet is looking bad now as it is effectively committing me to invest my entire stack (we have put in 9%). If we do just flat the three bet we give up the lead in the pot to our opponent and he is likely to c-bet most flops.

If we just call the three bet what do we do on a dry flop, just folding feels really weak?

In HE you"re likely to be about 80% favourite pre - in Omaha you"re more likely to be about 60-odd percent favourite.

I can see the argument about just getting your chips in as favourite, but there has to be a cut-off point where your chances of being outdrawn plus the size of the chipstacks is just too high to risk it all pre? Isn"t there?

I would say no (If it gets to that stage come off the table and start again on a new one plus in this hand we are only playing for two buyins). If we are ahead we should get it in, it"s just a question of if we are actually ahead (unlikely if he 5-bets) and if we are behind how far behind and have we got the equity to get it in anyway. As it is it does look as though the right play (assuming we have 4-bet would be to get it in. Will look into that a little more though).

[dwh103]

Well with the 4-bet I get to play a bigger pot in position which is quite useful in PLO. I can see what you are saying though I swell the pot with a hand that is going to be difficult to play post flop and it is not at all unreasonable for him to put me on AA and can therefore put me to very tough decisions in the hand.

We are about 41% Vs AAKK double suited and the same Vs AAJT but against most suited aces we are about 45%. Reading this the 4-bet is looking bad now as it is effectively committing me to invest my entire stack (we have put in 9%). If we do just flat the three bet we give up the lead in the pot to our opponent and he is likely to c-bet most flops.

If we just call the three bet what do we do on a dry flop, just folding feels really weak?

The reasoning is of course fair and generally what you"re after - just not with this hand imo. Position > Initiative

Calling disguises your hand to a certain extent should you flop an Ace, but yes, most of the time you"ll be facing a c-bet of 15-30BBs or so whilst holding a marginal hand. Your only strength here is position so calling the inevitable c-bet is almost always going to be out of the question if you haven"t improved. Leaves you to raise or fold dependent on the board texture. Against an unknown opponent who hasn"t yet got out of line I"d lean towards caution and the low variance approach.

Against thinking players or nut peddlers you can get creative - raise low/middling coordinated boards etc, but there is absolutely no shame in folding if unimproved. I personally consider my EV at lower stakes to be largely down to superior hand selection and pre-flop decisions, making subsequent post-flop decisions easier - you will have better spots than this.