Pretty Common Spot, best way to play it?

[AAroddersAA]

Hi Guy"s

Hope this makes sense.

What are you doing in this situation and what hand ranges do you need to do it? It"s a spot that pops up quite often in low stakes tournaments.

PokerStars Hand #81775295256: Tournament #569322540, $5.00+$0.50 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level XIII (200/400) - 2012/06/10 16:20:38 ET
Table "569322540 153" 9-max Seat #8 is the button
Seat 1: andryxa43 (6100 in chips) Hands: 34 VP$IP: 28 PFR: 13
Seat 2: boss az1 re (42109 in chips) is sitting out Hands: 86 VP$IP: 22 PFR: 9
Seat 3: Tomukas XIII (5535 in chips) Hands: 96 VP$IP: 8 PFR: 7
Seat 4: wingnut16 (17643 in chips) Hands: 133 VP$IP: 33 PFR: 11
Seat 5: sherho (9372 in chips) Hands: 72 VP$IP: 20 PFR: 13
Seat 6: blessed11 (10640 in chips) Hands: 24 VP$IP: 4 PFR: 0
Seat 7: mrpol214 (12345 in chips) Hands: 32 VP$IP: 18 PFR: 18
Seat 8: sbj1000 (9458 in chips) Hands: 116 VP$IP: 14 PFR: 12
Seat 9: 33teetwo33 (4645 in chips) Hands: 140 VP$IP: 21 PFR: 17
andryxa43: posts the ante 50
boss az1 re: posts the ante 50
Tomukas XIII: posts the ante 50
wingnut16: posts the ante 50
sherho: posts the ante 50
blessed11: posts the ante 50
mrpol214: posts the ante 50
sbj1000: posts the ante 50
33teetwo33: posts the ante 50
33teetwo33: posts small blind 200
andryxa43: posts big blind 400
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to 33teetwo33
boss az1 re: folds
Tomukas XIII: folds
wingnut16: calls 400
sherho: folds
blessed11: folds
mrpol214: folds
sbj1000: calls 400
33teetwo33:

[Paulie_D]

About 10BB I"m looking to get it in regardless of my cards....I might not even look.

If you really need a range, Ax, KQ - JT/J9

If they all fold, i pick up about a ^1/3 of my stack....if they don"t so be it.

[hi_am_chris]

See a point for shoving but also after this hand you have a full round to find a hand or even better spot

[AMRN]

I wouldn"t shove blind.  The likelihood of making that many limpers fold with a 10xbb shove is marginal. I would need to take a peek in this instance, and the shove would be dependant on my cards.

That said, I wouldn"t need to see much to make the shove viable - suited connectors ( or 1/2/3 gappers), any pair, any broadway, but not a raggy ace.  Also need to bear in mind that if it"s a limpy table nearly every hand, you have the button next hand a therefore a whole orbit to find a decent spot.

[dwh103]

Unless we"re close to the bubble, or there are other ICM considerations, then I"m shoving any pair, most suited connectors and one-gappers, offsuit connectors and Q high or better.

[mporter123]

Am shoving Ax, all pairs, all broadways, lots of suited connectors. Include other hands like Kx suited dependent on when the blinds are up and how the table has been.

Steve - why no Ace Rag?

[Paulie_D]

Steve - why no Ace Rag?

My guess is that he feels that with two limpers in front, any call of our Ax is likely to have us dominated.

[dwh103]

Steve - why no Ace Rag?

My guess is that he feels that with two limpers in front, any call of our Ax is likely to have us dominated.

It"d be a really unusual range if equity for A2o is lower than 87 suited. Almost always better to get it in with Ax.

[mporter123]

Steve - why no Ace Rag?

My guess is that he feels that with two limpers in front, any call of our Ax is likely to have us dominated.

It"d be a really unusual range if equity for A2o is lower than 87 suited. Almost always better to get it in with Ax.

Agree, limpers are just as likely to have suited pretty hands, small pairs, or just some random cards than an Ace that dominates us. Would need a pretty specific read to fold any Ace in this spot.

[AAroddersAA]

As always some good replies.

Any aces is a shove here surely? Would be really interested to understand why Steve disagrees. I think you have a good chance of making them all fold which is why the shoving range is so wide. When you hold the ace it marginally reduces the chance that anybody has a hand that could call. You also always have a chance to hit the ace if you are called.

The hands I am not sure about are small pairs like 22-66 as the most likely hands to limp/call in this spot are some kind of pair. I was wondering if this is where Steve is coming from when he says shoving Ax might not be the best play as well?

My opinion is you take it down often enough to make all pairs and all aces a shove the same with SC"s and broadways.

[TheSnapper]

Pondering a suitable response reminded me of our local live tourney field, at one time shallow final table calling ranges were ridiculously tight and you could push 5 bb"s 4-5 times in a row and take a comfortable chiplead. I remember shoving for 11 bb"s with rags and getting a show fold from the BB with AQo, as he "couldnt understand the huge bet" of ~25k.

What range can we profitably shove is hugely dependent on the limpers calling ranges. Not saying it"s the case with Steve but lots of players become over reliant on their hud stats and miss some obvious helpful reads.

In this spot it looks like we have played ~120 hands with both limpers,

wingnut16 (17643 in chips) Hands: 133 VP$IP: 33 PFR: 11 : Small sample but vpip and pfr merge pretty quickly so (assuming they are hands from this tourney and hence early game deepstack play) stats would suggest he"s either a really bad player who limps too much or a decent player seeing lots of flops playing pots ip versus weak opponents and trying to build a stack. Paying close attention will help you easily know which category villain falls into and how likely he is to fold to a ~11 bb jam.

sbj1000 (9458 in chips) Hands: 116 VP$IP: 14 PFR: 12 : Tight aggressive stats mostly choosing to come in for a raise, why not iso raise the early limper? is there an aggro dynamic at the table where over limp trapping with a monster might be correct? Is the player capable of noticing?

[deanp27]

Shoving wide here seems like spew so I am shoving a value range only, probably 66+ a9+ kj+

[AMRN]

Steve - why no Ace Rag?

My guess is that he feels that with two limpers in front, any call of our Ax is likely to have us dominated.

It"d be a really unusual range if equity for A2o is lower than 87 suited. Almost always better to get it in with Ax.

If we shove 87s, we are far more likely to have live cards if called.... someone who has limped a hand that dominates 87 (perhaps 89, T8, etc) is far less likely to call than someone who has limped Ax. In my experience in these low buy in tourneys, a limper with Ax is never ever ever folding to a 10x shove from the blinds..... with so many limpers before us, one of them is likely to have Ax, meaning a shove with A2o is going to be crushed a lot of the time.

[TheSnapper]

I suspect our equity when called accounts for so little of our total EV that the merits of 87 over A2 is moot. Especially so when you consider the card removal benefit of Ax type hands.

[dwh103]

Steve - why no Ace Rag?

My guess is that he feels that with two limpers in front, any call of our Ax is likely to have us dominated.

It"d be a really unusual range if equity for A2o is lower than 87 suited. Almost always better to get it in with Ax.

If we shove 87s, we are far more likely to have live cards if called.... someone who has limped a hand that dominates 87 (perhaps 89, T8, etc) is far less likely to call than someone who has limped Ax. In my experience in these low buy in tourneys, a limper with Ax is never ever ever folding to a 10x shove from the blinds..... with so many limpers before us, one of them is likely to have Ax, meaning a shove with A2o is going to be crushed a lot of the time.

What limp-call range would you give them?

If they only call with better Ax and pairs then yes, 87s has greater equity. But as soon as you add even a few broadway hands like KJ etc, Ax increases in value massively as it you can actually end up getting it in ahead. Although you"re "live" with 87s more often you"re still almost guaranteed 30%+ equity with Ax, so you"re never in too bad shape.

For a range of 88-22 and A2+. A2o has 37.68% equity vs 44.46% equity. Adding 3/4 other hands sees it swing in A2o"s favour, so if you think they"re calling with KQ, KJ, KT, QJ etc then it"s a little better to have the Ace.

They"re probably folding anyway, so who cares what you have?