What's his range

[pokerpops]

So... from memory on stack sizes
£100FO at G Stockton. 6 paid, 7 remain

There are two stacks in the 10-15BB range, plus one monster

Middle-aged (50ish) player renowned for his tightness (although known to me to be capable of making a move) raises utg+1 to just over 2BB from around 30BB stack
I 3bet BB to around 10BB showing huge strength from a stack of around 50BB

Orig raiser ships - really quick

What do we think his range is?

What"s the worst we call with?

[mporter123]

3betting to 5/6bbs is enough.

Tight player who can"t get his chips in quick enough from EP. Probs AK/ QQ/ KK/ AA.

Once we 3 bet that big its hard to fold. A smaller 3 bet and I am happy to fold QQ and AK but wouldn"t be 3betting these to fold. On the bubble, my 3 betting range is basically non existent without the goods in this type of spot.

Middle-aged (50ish)

50 is middle aged now?!  

[pokerpops]

Middle-aged (50ish)

50 is middle aged now?!  

I"d say so

3betting to 5/6bbs is enough.

Tight player who can"t get his chips in quick enough from EP. Probs AK/ QQ/ KK/ AA.

Once we 3 bet that big its hard to fold. A smaller 3 bet and I am happy to fold QQ and AK but wouldn"t be 3betting these to fold. On the bubble, my 3 betting range is basically non existent without the goods in this type of spot.

nods head - yes, smaller would have been better, and would normally be my weapon of choice here. The bigger bet was intended to show strength, and that made his 4bet look even stronger to me.

[duke3016]

If this is the hand I think it is, I would not have put him on what he did have  

[PHIL_TC]

If this is the hand I think it is, I would not have put him on what he did have  

+1 but I"d sigh fold.. give him the knowing smile, he"d smile back, we"d laugh about it later give a nudge and a wink, back home I"d cry a little, throw more darts at his head on my dartboard, feel better

ps 50 middle aged? I hope so.. means I"m still young. Yay x

[noble1]

So... from memory on stack sizes
£100FO at G Stockton. 6 paid, 7 remain

There are two stacks in the 10-15BB range, plus one monster

Middle-aged (50ish) player renowned for his tightness (although known to me to be capable of making a move) raises utg+1 to just over 2BB from around 30BB stack
I 3bet BB to around 10BB showing huge strength from a stack of around 50BB

Orig raiser ships - really quick

What do we think his range is?

What"s the worst we call with?

hard to say just going by u wrote here, i"m more interested in your thoughts pre before u acted..........

as long as u thought beforehand when u 3bet whether or not you was doing it for value or to bluff then ok if u didn"t but just 3bet then thought what to do next when he reacted then obv not so good
bet sizing wise - i don"t mind it if u thought he folded way to much and any shortie stacks behind then u was prepared to call if they pushed... btw what did u plan to do if a shortie behind flatted/4bet jammed etc and tighty utg1 5bet or called a 4bet? [providing u didnt do this from the BB]
the 5x 3bet - if your opponents have become accustomed to responding well to the std sized 3bet,[especially from yourself] then as long u planned/thought/assumed rightly or wrongly about how they"d respond/view to u doing it and u adjusted your bluff/value range accordingly, well if that was the case then ok...

[WYoung83]

First id say your 3 bet is to big, way to big, it actually shows the opposite of what it was intended to imo. Why would you 3 bet so big with KK/AA for example.
His all in range is really narrow QQ+, AK. For me in a live game vs a 50 yr old nit then QQs + and fold everything else, especially with two stacks of 10-15 bbs.

[Erimus]

My thoughts and reasonings behind this play, I am the 50 year old nit in question, not 50ish, 50 is bad enough.

I think if you 4 bet me smaller I would of been more inclined to set mine, I don"t think I can set mine with the stack sizes as they were, also if you 4 bet me smaller it would make me a lot more wary of a possible monster behind, a year ago I probably insta fold, perhaps i should with 2 short stacks still in and it being the cash bubble, but thought the insta shove would indicate massive strength, if I took my time with the shove  I am fairly sure you would call.

If you have AA or KK you want me to call so why so big that is my initial thought, I know you are capable of 4 betting light, and with your stack size I am pretty sure if I shove the lot in you can fold mid pairs JJ, AQ, AK against me even QQ, my insta shove obviously indicates massive strength, it is the cash bubble and although not massive money it has been a long day and I still would like to make a profit, like I said in the blog once you haven"t insta called I am certain you haven"t got AA or KK but am still sweating on JJ or QQ and didn"t really want to flip, this move was totally player dependant I don"t think I do the same thing against anyone else at the table, you still have 40 ish big blinds left if you fold, and you know there will be a better spot at the table.

If you did show up with KK or AA then fair enough, made a move didn"t work, go home kicking myself for not being a nit and folding to the potential cash.

[Erimus]

If this is the hand I think it is, I would not have put him on what he did have  

it"s quite dark on the dark side Ger, I don"t know whether I like it or not.

[hi_am_chris]

I was just about to put how do we think he percieves our play and do we have previous with this player?

[pokerpops]

So... from memory on stack sizes
£100FO at G Stockton. 6 paid, 7 remain

There are two stacks in the 10-15BB range, plus one monster

Middle-aged (50ish) player renowned for his tightness (although known to me to be capable of making a move) raises utg+1 to just over 2BB from around 30BB stack
I 3bet BB to around 10BB showing huge strength from a stack of around 50BB

Orig raiser ships - really quick

What do we think his range is?

What"s the worst we call with?

hard to say just going by u wrote here, i"m more interested in your thoughts pre before u acted..........

as long as u thought beforehand when u 3bet whether or not you was doing it for value or to bluff then ok if u didn"t but just 3bet then thought what to do next when he reacted then obv not so good
bet sizing wise - i don"t mind it if u thought he folded way to much and any shortie stacks behind then u was prepared to call if they pushed... btw what did u plan to do if a shortie behind flatted/4bet jammed etc and tighty utg1 5bet or called a 4bet? [providing u didnt do this from the BB]
the 5x 3bet - if your opponents have become accustomed to responding well to the std sized 3bet,[especially from yourself] then as long u planned/thought/assumed rightly or wrongly about how they"d respond/view to u doing it and u adjusted your bluff/value range accordingly, well if that was the case then ok...

The plan was that villain, who I play with very regularly, would fold to the 3bet with most of his opening range. It"s effectively heads up when I 3bet since the button is only getting involved with AA or KK here. If he flats (unlikely given stacks) then my hand has huge value and I"m fine with playing it postflop.
When he 4bets all in I am obviously concerned that he"s right at the top of his range for opening. We"re on the bubble, and my instant reaction was that I had to fold everything below KK
But I"m very close to the top of my 3bet fold range, so I tank, and try to work out if his range is wider than I thought, or if it"s a "he knows that I know that he knows" move

I folded, he showed tens

Tens!

But even if I include tens in his range to make it 1010+ AKs I still need KK+ to call I think?

[noble1]

But I"m very close to the top of my 3bet fold range, so I tank, and try to work out if his range is wider than I thought, or if it"s a "he knows that I know that he knows" move

probably best if u had thought all this through out pre...

player renowned for his tightness (although known to me to be capable of making a move)

ok you know he can get creative but u miss out the part of how u think he perceives you...




say for instance u think his utg range to open is 88+ AJs+ KQs KJs and u want ""the moves"" part of his range to react to whatever bet sizing u make it, then it"d make sense to expand your value range.. course u"d have to make some assumptions as to his frequencies... shame u have posted the result already but if u had said his opening range was the above, at approx 3/2 i"d said call with JJ+ AK maybe AQ [and thats not being results orientated]
the post is a bit foggy - What do we think his range is? - its more important as to what u thought his pre-flop range was and whatever u was holding was designed pre to get folds or value..
from a bubble point of view - i"m not all that risk averse and ICM has its limitatations, without knowing where and what stack sizes are to your left and right, skill ability of the others , the true equity conundrum , prize levels etc etc blah blah then i tend to have a different outlook to others lol, what do u think Rob/Bren? MarkP does it change your view/logic on the bet sizing pre? if say u had JJ in this situation would u call the 4bet?


good to see both players discuss there thoughts, u"ll get far more from it than the bog std stuff... 
i just hope my contribution makes some sense to u David

[deanp27]

I think you need to consider ranges before you 3bet. If you feel he only 4bet jams KK+ then 3bet bluff him all day long but don"t make it so big and flat your value hands.

But tbh if I open tens with 30bb effective and get 3bet I"d probably only fold to a real nit who has shown little propensity to 3bet me before. Obviously I would never call for a third of effective stacks pre, unless I had aces and felt like tarping

[Fatcatstu]

Against this player, its probably a fold dave i would say, although if this were a thursday, that depends how early i started drinking!!!