Ruling please.....

[evilpie]

Just after a few opinions on something that happened Friday night at DTD live.

I"m in the BB with A8 and I"ve got about 60k. Blinds are 800/1600 and UTG pushes for about 8000. It folds round to me and I start to decide what to do. This takes a few seconds because I"ve got to count his stack and have a little think.

While I"m thinking he for some reason thinks I"ve folded and mucks his cards. The dealer immediately calls over the floor manager who says he is liable for the uncalled part of his raise so loses 1600 and gets back his raise as I"ve not called yet.

Anyone know if this is correct? It seems very open to abuse to me. It means that a player could theoretically push with any 2 cards and gets a chance to change his mind if someone starts to have a think about what to do thus suggesting they have something?

Anyone know for sure because it was discussed a bit at the table and even the floor manager was agreeing that it seems to be a potential loop hole although he was certain that he was correct.

[WarBwastardo]

This was posted on a different thread by Rio -

From Robert"s Rules of Poker

SECTION 3 - GENERAL POKER RULES
DEAD HANDS
2. Cards thrown into the muck may be ruled dead. However, a hand that is clearly identifiable may be retrieved and ruled live at management's discretion if doing so is in the best interest of the game. An extra effort should be made to rule a hand retrievable if it was folded as a result of incorrect information given to the player.



So you ended up with the blinds and 1600 of his chips and he got the rest of his stack back and that was the end of the hand?  Would be a shame for the player if his whole stack went to you because he made a mistake mucking his cards, but as you suggest, it"s open to abuse and you"ve probably got a case for deserving his whole stack since his chips are in the pot now and not his anymore.  It"s up to the individual player to protect his hand, so if you make a mistake it ought to be something you accept and try not to repeat in future tournaments.

One of those grey areas maybe that are decided by the casino"s/cardrooms own policy.  

[GiMac]

The overriding rule in poker is that it should be fair and in the best interests of the game. I think in this specific case the ruling did that.  

[evilpie]

Yes it seemed fair enough to me and I didn"t complain. I might have had something to say if I"d been looking at say AJ and had more of a chance of calling. As it was I was probably folding A8 anyway but they didn"t know that"s what I had. I wasn"t overly happy when I showed my ace to try and make the guy feel a bit better and he just said "you"re obviously not calling anyway" and seemed to be trying to justify his mistake. He almost seemed aggrieved at losing his 1600!!!

I get the over riding rule of things being fair but where do you draw the line. Surely with something like this there should be a clear rule. You just can"t afford to have grey areas with anything that"s open to abuse or an individual"s personal judgement.

What would have happened if the situation had been slightly different? Say I"d had AK and was just deciding whether I fancied a 50 50 based on how many chips he had. Would it then have been fair to give me the chips?

I think that WarB"s post shows that I should have had the chips. Might seem a bit harsh but he should have protected his cards. It"s not like the dealer took them, he actually threw them in himself.

Just to make it clear I"m not complaining here I just want to know for sure what should have happened. As it happened I won the thing anyway so maybe it was a bit of good karma that I didn"t moan so the poker gods decided it was my night.  

[texfitz]

(a)I wasn"t overly happy when I showed my ace to try and (b) make the guy feel a bit better

(a) why show him ?

(b) poker is a game of information (among other things). You were dwelling on calling, HE KNOWS THE RULING, so mucks coz he didn"t want a caller, and gets most of his chips back

I"m not saying that is what happened, but as stated it is open to abuse. So i would say the hand was VOLUNTARY mucked therefore dead and you call & win

[GiMac]

TBH I must have been in a good mood when I said above, or misunderstood and thought dealer had indicated that you had folded. If he has mucked his cards of his own volition then his hand is dead and if u call you take the chips. It"s harsh but it"s the rule and he wont ever do it again.  

[evilpie]

(a)I wasn"t overly happy when I showed my ace to try and (b) make the guy feel a bit better

(a) why show him ?

(b) poker is a game of information (among other things). You were dwelling on calling, HE KNOWS THE RULING, so mucks coz he didn"t want a caller, and gets most of his chips back

I"m not saying that is what happened, but as stated it is open to abuse. So i would say the hand was VOLUNTARY mucked therefore dead and you call & win

(a) - Because I"m an idiot   Not got a better reason other than I felt a bit sorry for him and wanted him to know that he might have lost anyway. (will try not to do it again)

(b) Don"t think he did it on purpose but you never know. There"s certainly more chance of him trying again if he thinks he can get away with it. (And anybody else at the table for that matter).

[texfitz]

Actually this could open a very big can of worms, making it VERY exploitable unless a firm ruling is made. He"s done it once (maybe more !), all at the table have seen it, prolly discussed at the venue, then on forums,  so :-

I"m UTG and wanna raise but can"t call a re-raise, so i push allin, all instafold round to BB who dwells and counts chips     so i muck, get all my chips back less min raise. Phew lucky escape

[GiMac]

I think the ruling in most cardrooms would be that your hand was dead, so I wouldn"t advise anyone to try this.  

[texfitz]

i agree Gordon, it was hypathetical, but he done it n got away with it

[kinboshi]

Actually this could open a very big can of worms, making it VERY exploitable unless a firm ruling is made. He"s done it once (maybe more !), all at the table have seen it, prolly discussed at the venue, then on forums,  so :-

I"m UTG and wanna raise but can"t call a re-raise, so i push allin,

A player instacalls.

all instafold round to BB who dwells and counts chips     so i muck, get all my chips back less min raise. Phew lucky escape

[GiMac]

Actually this could open a very big can of worms, making it VERY exploitable unless a firm ruling is made. He"s done it once (maybe more !), all at the table have seen it, prolly discussed at the venue, then on forums,  so :-

I"m UTG and wanna raise but can"t call a re-raise, so i push allin,

A player instacalls.

all instafold round to BB who dwells and counts chips     so i muck, get all my chips back less min raise. Phew lucky escape

And you flop a straight with your 3 5 offsuit, cracking the fish who inst called with jacks.

[kinboshi]

Actually this could open a very big can of worms, making it VERY exploitable unless a firm ruling is made. He"s done it once (maybe more !), all at the table have seen it, prolly discussed at the venue, then on forums,  so :-

I"m UTG and wanna raise but can"t call a re-raise, so i push allin,

A player instacalls.

all instafold round to BB who dwells and counts chips     so i muck, get all my chips back less min raise. Phew lucky escape

And you flop a straight with your 3 5 offsuit, cracking the fish who inst called with jacks.