Cash Game - Line Check

[AAroddersAA]

Playing Zoom so almost no info on my opponent in the hand. Only 1 hand in my HUD and he folded it.

2012/09/02 4:07:49 WET [2012/09/01 23:07:49 ET]
Table "Hydra" 6-max Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: Helraiser87 ($23.22 in chips)
Seat 2: 33teetwo33 ($41.24 in chips)
Seat 3: MARCOS-URUG ($39.05 in chips)
Seat 4: ehs21 ($18.17 in chips)
Seat 5: Suhoff76 ($42.17 in chips)
Seat 6: El Deucey ($35.55 in chips)
33teetwo33: posts small blind $0.10
MARCOS-URUG: posts big blind $0.25
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to 33teetwo33 [ ]
ehs21: folds
Suhoff76: raises $0.37 to $0.62
El Deucey: folds
Helraiser87: folds
33teetwo33: raises $1.63 to $2.25
MARCOS-URUG: folds
Suhoff76: calls $1.63
*** FLOP *** [ ]
33teetwo33: bets $4
Suhoff76: raises $7 to $11
33teetwo33: calls $7
*** TURN *** [ ] []
33teetwo33: checks
Suhoff76: bets $28.92 and is all-in
33teetwo33: folds

Should I just flat preflop? I have to bet the flop, is the size wrong? Should I fold to the raise?

[WYoung83]

 Dont mind 3 bet preflop in normal cash games but in zoom theres no balancing or metagame at all so i tend to just flat oop in situations like this (i dont know if that makes much sense, but i find theres no real value in 3 betting margional hands oop thats all) most of the time u win a tiny pot pre flop or loose a much bigger post flop.

I would fold turn here because people dont usually stack off light in my experience, and id say u are beat most of the time here.

fwiw im a net looser in zoom and rush by quite a lot, i always seem to run into the top of their ranges or get coolered real bad.

[Marty719]

Tough hand readless.  As played, his value range for raising flop is really narrow, and Id say his actual range includes a lot of draws and some air, as well as a few combos of worse Jx hands.  I"m calling here and making a note.

[WYoung83]

 Marty u said his 3 bet flop range is narrow "includes draws/ air/ combos and Jx". But shouldnt that mean his range is really wide?

And when he shoves turn, i think we can take air out of his range unless we have specific reason otherwise (which we have no reads so have to assume hes not insane)

So when he shoves turn, his range is Club draws/ maybe with overs/ combo draws 97cc etc. made hands like sets/ over pairs QQ+ and Jx. Vs this range looks like u have 61% if ive done it correctly. looks like a crying call.

[Marty719]

Marty u said his 3 bet flop range is narrow "includes draws/ air/ combos and Jx". But shouldnt that mean his range is really wide?

And when he shoves turn, i think we can take air out of his range unless we have specific reason otherwise (which we have no reads so have to assume hes not insane)

So when he shoves turn, his range is Club draws/ maybe with overs/ combo draws 97cc etc. made hands like sets/ over pairs QQ+ and Jx.

I said the value part of his range is really narrow

As for your range for his turn shove, that still makes it a call w/ AJ.  There aren"t many combo"s of sets, and we have to discount some combos of overpairs when he flats the 3b pre this deep.  

[WYoung83]

yeh sorry missed the key word lol. Guess after thinking about it for a while and looking at the numbers i change my mind to a call.

[deanp27]

Yeah played fine but I probably call turn jam

[AAroddersAA]

What do we think he can have that we beat on the turn? I pretty much insta folded.

Should I fold pre? I pretty much think I should never flat this hand OOP (barring some really weird dynamic). My thinking is once he has raised/called from EP the board lands dry. I c-bet (probably too big, it should be $3) and he makes a strong raise. He could be doing this with air but that does does not seem likely in this spot. It is so rare at this level even in the modern day game. The only thing he MIGHT be doing this with on that flop that I can beat is KJ or QJ type hands. Those hands should really be calling on this flop, not raising. He can definitely have a set here as well. I then called and checked the turn hoping he would check or bet small with a worse Jack. He shoves, I really don"t think he shoves a Jack. I think he has air or a set. At this level it is usually a set because you will get called a lot of the time by an overpair?

I really think calling the turn is setting fire to money (could be wrong). I am really thinking fold pre might be the best play as there is a raise from EP and I don"t like calling with this hand and hands like AQ and AK will often flat me from that position so I am playing out of position with big reverse implied odds. Make any sense at all?

[WYoung83]

The last paragraph that u said is the reason why i wouldnt 3 bet on zoom with AJ oop, because u are not gonna get folds vs AK and AQ.

[Marty719]

What do we think he can have that we beat on the turn? I pretty much insta folded.

Should I fold pre? I pretty much think I should never flat this hand OOP (barring some really weird dynamic). My thinking is once he has raised/called from EP the board lands dry. I c-bet (probably too big, it should be $3) and he makes a strong raise. He could be doing this with air but that does does not seem likely in this spot. It is so rare at this level even in the modern day game. The only thing he MIGHT be doing this with on that flop that I can beat is KJ or QJ type hands. Those hands should really be calling on this flop, not raising. He can definitely have a set here as well. I then called and checked the turn hoping he would check or bet small with a worse Jack. He shoves, I really don"t think he shoves a Jack. I think he has air or a set. At this level it is usually a set because you will get called a lot of the time by an overpair?

I really think calling the turn is setting fire to money (could be wrong). I am really thinking fold pre might be the best play as there is a raise from EP and I don"t like calling with this hand and hands like AQ and AK will often flat me from that position so I am playing out of position
with big reverse implied odds. Make any sense at all?

Def shud b 3b or fold pre, but I disagree he is polarised to sets or air. What do u thnk villain does w/ nfd or combo draws Ott?

[AAroddersAA]

What do we think he can have that we beat on the turn? I pretty much insta folded.

Should I fold pre? I pretty much think I should never flat this hand OOP (barring some really weird dynamic). My thinking is once he has raised/called from EP the board lands dry. I c-bet (probably too big, it should be $3) and he makes a strong raise. He could be doing this with air but that does does not seem likely in this spot. It is so rare at this level even in the modern day game. The only thing he MIGHT be doing this with on that flop that I can beat is KJ or QJ type hands. Those hands should really be calling on this flop, not raising. He can definitely have a set here as well. I then called and checked the turn hoping he would check or bet small with a worse Jack. He shoves, I really don"t think he shoves a Jack. I think he has air or a set. At this level it is usually a set because you will get called a lot of the time by an overpair?

I really think calling the turn is setting fire to money (could be wrong). I am really thinking fold pre might be the best play as there is a raise from EP and I don"t like calling with this hand and hands like AQ and AK will often flat me from that position so I am playing out of position
with big reverse implied odds. Make any sense at all?

Def shud b 3b or fold pre, but I disagree he is polarised to sets or air. What do u thnk villain does w/ nfd or combo draws Ott?

Oh yeah, just reread the hand history, there was actually two clubs on the flop. I honestly never noticed that (even when playing the hand *lol*) I thought it was rainbow for some bizarre reason - madness . That actually changes things a lot. Probably should have called then.

[noble1]

Board:
Dead:  

   equity    win    tie          pots won    pots tied   
Hand 0:    74.434%     74.43%    00.00%             14738            0.00   { QQ-JJ, 77, 44, AcQc, AcTc, Ac9c, Ac7c, Tc9c, 9c8c, 6c5c }
Hand 1:    25.566%     25.57%    00.00%              5062            0.00   { AdJs }



Board:  [you are getting slightly less than 2/1 to call the turn shove]
Dead:  

   equity    win    tie          pots won    pots tied   
Hand 0:    71.591%     71.59%    00.00%               630            0.00   { QQ-JJ, 77, 44, AcQc, AcTc, Ac9c, Ac7c, Tc9c, 9c8c, 6c5c }
Hand 1:    28.409%     28.41%    00.00%               250            0.00   { AdJs }


hopefully the above might get some to re-think, even if you add a % of air for villain then you have to also allow for villain flatting a 3bet in position with AA KK AKcc a certain % of the time also..
its a 3bet pot approx 165bb eff no reads, no history between the players, play against his whole range NOT what you hope he has, re-read G-Bucks would be a good starting point if you haven"t already..
in 3bet pot no reads what would villain be putting you on? agreed your line screams weak after you flat his re-raise and check the turn BUT when the situation you are in is flipping/way behind at best then bloody well FOLD the flop remember mostly the perceived 3bet strength of your hand is ahead of villains 3bet flat range on this board, if you fold every spot like this then at best you only end up losing a little bit of money, NOT winning the occasional and losing mostly, quite simply in grey spots like this you will be wrong far more than right..

rather than only just looking at the post flop decisions, consider the pre flop situation, 3betting oop AJo to a utg1/mp raiser in 6max, re-think your 3bet ranges, how much for value and what type of hands readless would be better to add to the weaker part...

[pokerpops]

as a general principle, bet until you are raised, then fold.

He has it, whichever "it" is, he has it

[noble1]

a broader way of looking at it -

[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBq7t-xQnas[/youtube]

[Marty719]

He can have worse Jx hands as well and its vs an unknown. Way more combos of Jx hands than sets.  Think ur range is short of a few f/d"s as well