APAT League Hand - No.2

[Waz1892]

Hehe, I was the villain.

You cbet the flop obviously and then I clicked it back. I think you should now be in bluff catching mode.

Call flop reraise then check call turn and river.

You mentioned that you couldn"t get away 5 handed and I agree to some extent, but you should never have committed your stack there on the flop that early in he tourney with 1 pair. The flop was J hi iirc. An "accomplished" (ahem) player will not really stack off with too much that you beat and will probably fold most hands that you beat.

By calling the raise on the flop, you let hands like AJ, QQ and KK value bet the worse hand and other hands may bluff another street, thinking they can get you off AK or maybe AQ.

By 3 betting the flop, I put you on JJ-AA of which one (JJ) was less likely. This made my decision to shove easy as I knew I was getting paid off ( or coolered by JJ)

Well done on winning btw. I think bubbling was about all I deserved last night. I played far from "accomplished" last night, bluffed most of my stack off to Jo, then kept "getting there" to keep myself in it.

Hey Rob, glad you posted you views. I didn"t name you in case you didn"t want it. Methods of play etc, and I made sure the villain was put in " ", as your a nice guy really!

The main issue I think was that its clear with your post and others I don"t put in half as much thought into what, why, now what, when I"m involved in a hand.  I saw aces, rainbow board and was counting the money already.

It"s clear with a little more care and nounce I could have folded it at least saved a bunch

[deanp27]

Just open fold against that luckbox imo

[AAroddersAA]

Hehe, I was the villain.

You cbet the flop obviously and then I clicked it back. I think you should now be in bluff catching mode.

Call flop reraise then check call turn and river.

You mentioned that you couldn"t get away 5 handed and I agree to some extent, but you should never have committed your stack there on the flop that early in he tourney with 1 pair. The flop was J hi iirc. An "accomplished" (ahem) player will not really stack off with too much that you beat and will probably fold most hands that you beat.

By calling the raise on the flop, you let hands like AJ, QQ and KK value bet the worse hand and other hands may bluff another street, thinking they can get you off AK or maybe AQ.

By 3 betting the flop, I put you on JJ-AA of which one (JJ) was less likely. This made my decision to shove easy as I knew I was getting paid off ( or coolered by JJ)

Well done on winning btw. I think bubbling was about all I deserved last night. I played far from "accomplished" last night, bluffed most of my stack off to Jo, then kept "getting there" to keep myself in it.

Hey Rob, glad you posted you views. I didn"t name you in case you didn"t want it. Methods of play etc, and I made sure the villain was put in " ", as your a nice guy really!

The main issue I think was that its clear with your post and others I don"t put in half as much thought into what, why, now what, when I"m involved in a hand.  I saw aces, rainbow board and was counting the money already.

It"s clear with a little more care and nounce I could have folded it at least saved a bunch

No, you really can"t.

Its not a case of could you have got away from this hand on this board. It"s a case of what is the most profitable line in getting in all the money.

[noble1]

J8x rainbow board texture [not many draws] , 3bet pot , 3bet ranges and 3bet call ranges , re-raising on a fairly dry ish flop , what range is villain putting you on , 200bb + effective stacks , bluff catching a rr flop and calling bets on the turn and river? why? , what sizing do you call?..........etc etc  

Its not a case of could you have got away from this hand on this board. It"s a case of what is the most profitable line in getting in all the money.

hmmmm Rodders............

i like this -

Logic: Is there logic present that he could use that would make him decide to bluff? And is that logic more compelling or evident than the logic not to bluff?

could u apply this thinking to Robs flop action in a 3bet pot...

some reading to get u pondering -
http://www.pokerlistings.com/strategy/the-bluff-catcher -

Knowing when your hand is a bluff catcher is the first step to playing it more profitably.
Your hand can only truly be a bluff catcher on the river.
While your hand may technically be one on the turn, if you call you may still have to call another bet on the river.

http://www.thepokerbank.com/strategy/general/range-merging/
note his take on bluff catching..

http://suited-aces.com/how-to-catch-a-bluff-like-the-pros
Danny"s logic - i"ve quoted above

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/78/micro-stakes-full-ring/cotw-bluffing-1224829/
a yukky post on game theory to get your grey matter ticking over but at least it should get u thinking about balance or exploitive lines , at least it will give u some ideas on value to bluff ratio"s from a math perspective and whether or not u could apply it or add elements of it to your style of play...


if anyone reading this has problems with over pairs oop in spots like this or u have lost a few big pots to players of whatever type, then get searching through your tracker database [and if the sample is small then join forces with your mates results from his tracker]  u are almost probably giving them [the villains ] too much credit for having a wider bluffing range than they actually have, or for being capable of value betting non-nut hands. [all on player types, buy in/stake level , board textures and tendencies u"ve noted etc etc]

no reads equals no bloody idea where u stand and if u happen to guess right , then u got lucky [and end up enforcing the hero call in your mind as being correct , then a vicious cycle begins ]

[AAroddersAA]

J8x rainbow board texture [not many draws] , 3bet pot , 3bet ranges and 3bet call ranges , re-raising on a fairly dry ish flop , what range is villain putting you on , 200bb + effective stacks , bluff catching a rr flop and calling bets on the turn and river? why? , what sizing do you call?..........etc etc  

Its not a case of could you have got away from this hand on this board. It"s a case of what is the most profitable line in getting in all the money.

hmmmm Rodders............

You can"t fold, on the flop though. Getting it all in is not that bad either and +EV against most opponents (not Vs Rob as I said earlier) calling the reraise and c/c c/c is a better line (unless he does something really strange like a big overshove on turn or river)

Most players have AQ, KQ more than a set in an APAT tournament. People love raising top pair on the flop (not saying its that great but this is what they do). Then seem to feel compelled to at least bet the turn, although in position they often just check the river so maybe when he bets the river his range is capped to a bluff or a monster.

Interesting hand.

[noble1]

You can"t fold, on the flop though. Getting it all in is not that bad either and +EV against most opponents (not Vs Rob as I said earlier) calling the reraise and c/c c/c is a better line (unless he does something really strange like a big overshove on turn or river)

Most players have AQ, KQ more than a set in an APAT tournament. People love raising top pair on the flop (not saying its that great but this is what they do). Then seem to feel compelled to at least bet the turn, although in position they often just check the river so maybe when he bets the river his range is capped to a bluff or a monster.

Interesting hand.

i think Rob corrected that flop texture to Jack high Rodders...
going by the read Waz gave - good player ..... what assumptions logically would u make?

well for one if the situation is right a good player will play a strong hand fast, of course they will have plenty of air as well if the situation is RIGHT... so is the situation right here? [3bet pot , dry board texture]
if say Rob is more on the taggy side then what do decent tags call with in 3bet pots when effective stacks are deep?
i"d say pocket pairs would make up a large proportion of there 3bet calling range and AJ KJ QJ would be nearly non-existent for obvious reasons , for instance if they perceive Waz to be 3betting a strong value range, now add in a J8x rainbow flop what is there logic here for re-raising?
flip the good players style to a good LAG , would they consider this a good board texture versus a strong value range against someone who may over play there range to now start bloating the pot?
would either style choose in the main to float a street? what part of there ranges would they do this with?

hero oop with a possibly perceived strong 3bet value range who may likely over play it , what does a good player do?

i posted the bluff catching article because the line Rob used -

You cbet the flop obviously and then I clicked it back. I think you should now be in bluff catching mode.

a better way of describing it is to take a pot control line on the flop + turn then bluff catch on the river... add in the reads Waz gave and the board texture, can anyone find a good counter argument to bluff catch the river after facing a re-raise on the flop and having to check call a turn bet of whatever sizing? if the pot control line was taken...
in fact although it seems nitty , with the given reads, the line Rob takes and the board texture i wouldn"t be averse to the idea of Waz check folding the turn

other things to ponder - when oop in a 3bet pot versus a good player with our perceived pre-flop hand strength 200bb+ deep on a one high card two low dry board texture is there any good reasons not to cbet 100% of our range?
was Waz"s pre-flop 3bet sizing ok?
why couldn"t he find the actual hand history [lol , sorry Waz]
had Rob being playing other board textures like this in previous hands in this manner, and if so , against whom?

[Waz1892]

For some reason hand history doesn"t work on my laptop in boss (DTD/Apat.co.uk)

Invaluable tips and help in this

[AAroddersAA]

You can"t fold, on the flop though. Getting it all in is not that bad either and +EV against most opponents (not Vs Rob as I said earlier) calling the reraise and c/c c/c is a better line (unless he does something really strange like a big overshove on turn or river)

Most players have AQ, KQ more than a set in an APAT tournament. People love raising top pair on the flop (not saying its that great but this is what they do). Then seem to feel compelled to at least bet the turn, although in position they often just check the river so maybe when he bets the river his range is capped to a bluff or a monster.

Interesting hand.

i think Rob corrected that flop texture to Jack high Rodders...
going by the read Waz gave - good player ..... what assumptions logically would u make?

Is this like a test *lol*

I did miss the fact it was a Jack high flop for various reasons. This actually makes quite a bit of difference.

I agree that AJ and KJ should not be in too many people range here. The reality is that they often are though but as we know our opponent is Rob it is logical to assume he does not have these very often.

Rob"s raise on the flop could be anything but is probably not a top pair type hand or a mid pair. He is certainly capable of trying to nick the pot here. Without an obvious draw he should be polarized to sets and bluffs really.

We can certainly check/call the turn at this stage I think, when Rob shoves the river I may fold as I would expect a check from a hand I beat there.

[noble1]

nope not a test, just throwing a few thoughts out there , see if anyone wanted to contribute etc etc

i"ve been up all night so i"ll try to make this quick -

i"m surprised by how many responses would get 200bb+ all in in this spot tbh... good player - think 1 level above and it seems a straight forward hand imo with reads given... [all on whether or not Waz is the biggest 3betting aggro donk going of course lol   but i"m assuming he isn"t and is probably a tad on the tighter side , no more than 5or6% anyhows ]

click it back , i did chortle a tad when i saw the HH , i was using this move back in 05 06 so to see its still working is amazing plus no one in the thread questioned it, so here a few thoughts on it Waz....

the min rr or the CIB use it to -
induces shoves when u have monsters versus fishy sorts..
to give the appearance to the villain we are bluffing or weak so that he can shove over and have FE when he really can"t..
it allows u to take control of the hand [player dependent]
u can use it in spots/board textures when villains range has no draws in it but rather made hands and air..
u can really fu#k with villains by CIB instantly or for pure amusement value time bank right down then CIB
it can buy u free cards, especially when you don"t really want to commit your stack with a draw but don"t want to lose initiative because you don"t want to be bluffed off the hand..
its a great way to build pots early on versus fish without really scaring them off...
to raise for info, yeah yeah raising for info is BAD so everyone says BUT if raising for info gives u a piece of info that prevents you from making a huge -ev mistake later on in the hand by sacrificing a relatively small bit of ev up front, then raising for info cant be THAT bad IMHO [Waz , the 3bet CIB was an option u could of taken]
3bet clicking it back can stop certain villains from check raise bluffing u when you are cbetting if they can"t or very infrequently make a pure air 4 bet bluff...
against tough tricky players who are capable of a 4 bet bluff, then 5bet CIB and call a shove cos they might think we"d never do this with a strong value hand but we still call with our strong ISH hands top pair 2nd kicker type of stuff etc...

the last two are for deeper stack situations but are used in mtts but at small buy in"s cash or mtts DO NOT USE....[unless u wanna have some fun ]

if anyone else can think of any other uses of the click it back move then please add on to the list, i"m off to bed

[TheSnapper]

As a general strategy post tip, try to not post results prematurely, replies made after result is revealed are tainted (including this one )

Some general thoughts.

Assuming from the brief history prior to this hand that villain (no need for inverted comas  ) has been active in late position. That being the case his range is really wide here and a 3b will fold out most of that range, do we want him to fold?

anyone like a flat pre?

So we 3b the frequent lp raiser and villain flats. We have an interesting dynamic now and a spot with some potential for either player to level themselves.

think 1 level above and it seems a straight forward hand imo with reads given...

Villain can think we are adjusting and 3b'ing light, I've often levelled myself by 4b bluffing in similar spots but the reality is, players don't adjust that often and they have it more often than not.

The flop.

We can cbet really small here imho, one third pot has potentially more value than two thirds pot. How can we get the most chips in versus hands we beat?

For the OP though I do feel the big lesson here is to adjust to how deep you are in this spot and particularly how you value your hand strength versus the size of pot you are prepared to commit to. In short, when we get 200 bb"s in versus a decent opponent, one pair is never good.

[Waz1892]

As a general strategy post tip, try to not post results prematurely, replies made after result is revealed are tainted (including this one

I agree, so I tried to hold off on completing the action, whilst answering question as it went along. I waited over 11hrs before saying what the next action(s) were, and then 24hrs until the rest of the hand. 

Is this not enough then?

[Fatcatstu]

Brendan, i love reading your thoughts on the game, you make it really clear and simple for us who arent quite as good/advanced. Cheers mate

[TheSnapper]

As a general strategy post tip, try to not post results prematurely, replies made after result is revealed are tainted (including this one

I agree, so I tried to hold off on completing the action, whilst answering question as it went along. I waited over 11hrs before saying what the next action(s) were, and then 24hrs until the rest of the hand. 

Is this not enough then?

Posting results will totally alter how people analyse the spot to a point where they are so skewed towards the result that responses become almost worthless. So imho patience will pay off.

[Waz1892]

As a general strategy post tip, try to not post results prematurely, replies made after result is revealed are tainted (including this one

I agree, so I tried to hold off on completing the action, whilst answering question as it went along. I waited over 11hrs before saying what the next action(s) were, and then 24hrs until the rest of the hand. 

Is this not enough then?

Posting results will totally alter how people analyse the spot to a point where they are so skewed towards the result that responses become almost worthless. So imho patience will pay off.

no worries, certainly will do so in future. Ty

[WYoung83]

The few times i have started a thread on this section, i have never ever posted showdown results iirc. It always gives unfair reading from people responses.