Line Check

[AAroddersAA]

No hands at all on my opponent. Think this is pretty standard but one of the leaks I have noticed in my game lately is calling too light on the river. How is the overall line? I know I should have bet the turn but felt I might get raised off it if he had the flush and thought I could call a river bet and get to the end for around the same price against a weaker range.

PokerStars Zoom Hand #90636912225:  Hold'em No Limit ($0.05/$0.10) - 2012/12/12 11:46:44 WET [2012/12/12 6:46:44 ET]
Table "Klinkenberg" 6-max Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: MUKnyazev ($5.61 in chips)
Seat 2: holo007 ($10.90 in chips)
Seat 3: hayarmo ($4.68 in chips)
Seat 4: dronpol2008 ($10.52 in chips)
Seat 5: 33teetwo33 ($10 in chips)
Seat 6: osheror ($16.66 in chips)
holo007: posts small blind $0.05
hayarmo: posts big blind $0.10
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to 33teetwo33 [As ]
dronpol2008: folds
33teetwo33: raises $0.20 to $0.30
osheror: calls $0.30
MUKnyazev: folds
holo007: folds
hayarmo: calls $0.20
*** FLOP *** [ Tc ]
hayarmo: checks
33teetwo33: bets $0.65
osheror: folds
hayarmo: calls $0.65
*** TURN *** [ Tc ] []
hayarmo: checks
33teetwo33: checks
*** RIVER *** [ Tc ] []
hayarmo: bets $2.50
33teetwo33: calls $2.50

[Marty719]

Def calling river as played, but think we are missing value by checking the turn here.

[AMRN]

Don"t see much wrong there Steve. Continuing on that flop is super standard. Checking behind on the turn keeps the pot smaller than it might be and makes it much easier to make the marginal call on the river.  Suspect he shows up with the flush much of the time though.

[mporter123]

Post flop - Bet, Bet, Bet is my line here.

As played, I am very happily calling the river. Villain sizing is annoying but cannot fold as there are lots of combo"s we beat.

If you are checking these sort of turns then calling down light on the river is not a leak. The leak is missing value from AQ type hands that we can merrily get 3 streets from in these spots.

[TheSnapper]

Firstly, why as a studious player would you even consider playing at Zoom tables? imho, if you take the awesome game that is Texas Holdem, remove any semblence of strategy and the benefits of paying attention to your opponents tendencies, what you are left with is Zoom.

Having said that, I will make comment on how this hand played out  

I notice you bet exactly full pot on the flop, why? is it your default size? if you missed would you bet the same amount?

Turn check is fine, as Steve says, it leaves for a smaller river bet and simpler river decision.

When villain bets $2.50 into $1.95 on the river we are hardly ever good imo so I think its an easy fold but again, if it was poker we would have an idea whether villain had a tendency to represent the flush on the river and what his betsize meant.

You could just do an ee nee mee nee my ne mo and have a 50% chance of making the correct decision.

[TheSnapper]

Post flop - Bet, Bet, Bet is my line here.

As played, I am very happily calling the river. Villain sizing is annoying but cannot fold as there are lots of combo"s we beat.

If you are checking these sort of turns then calling down light on the river is not a leak. The leak is missing value from AQ type hands that we can merrily get 3 streets from in these spots.

All this really has to be read dependent Mark. Against some opponents bet bet bet may be correct but even then, only marginally so.

The nut worst turn would be   or , AJ and AQ now beat us and lots of draws get there but the is not far behind as bad turn cards go, QJ was double gutted and got there as did all flushdraws. Thats a large part of even the widest flop calling ranges.

[mporter123]

All this really has to be read dependent Mark. Against some opponents bet bet bet may be correct but even then, only marginally so.

The nut worst turn would be   or , AJ and AQ now beat us and lots of draws get there but the is not far behind as bad turn cards go, QJ was double gutted and got there as did all flushdraws. Thats a large part of even the widest flop calling ranges.

Agree about the reads but I do think the default line at Zoom NL10 for this type of hand should be value betting every street. Probs still betting the turn if it comes a Jack or Queen.

Decent hand for villain to float his hands with equity or even small pairs on the flop and bet any river once hero has "given up" on the turn. Hero"s hand looks a lot like a one pair hand on a scary board so have to call river. Just hate the sizing so much but have to sigh it off.

Zoom is great for this - getting solid fundamentals. I am probs wrong but I think the turn is an easy bet and not close.

[AAroddersAA]

All this really has to be read dependent Mark. Against some opponents bet bet bet may be correct but even then, only marginally so.

The nut worst turn would be   or , AJ and AQ now beat us and lots of draws get there but the is not far behind as bad turn cards go, QJ was double gutted and got there as did all flushdraws. Thats a large part of even the widest flop calling ranges.

Agree about the reads but I do think the default line at Zoom NL10 for this type of hand should be value betting every street. Probs still betting the turn if it comes a Jack or Queen.

Decent hand for villain to float his hands with equity or even small pairs on the flop and bet any river once hero has "given up" on the turn. Hero"s hand looks a lot like a one pair hand on a scary board so have to call river. Just hate the sizing so much but have to sigh it off.

Zoom is great for this - getting solid fundamentals. I am probs wrong but I think the turn is an easy bet and not close.

Completely agree with this really good point.

A bet is better than a check I think (but it is close), simply because he can have lot"s of hands where he is holding a single club, there are other draws out as well. A good rule that myself and David3101 were discussing elsewhere was at these stakes, with top pair good kicker, bet until they raise - then fold. Obviously it is not this simple always but it is not bad for a default. A lot of people are starting to raise flush draws on the flop now as well.

In this case bet, bet, bet is quite marginal, although if he just calls the turn and checks the river we can bet out feeling very confident we are good. Therefore betting the turn gives us potentially a lot of extra value against a lot of hands that are not a flush. We also fold out a lot of hands we beat but this is not something we should be worrying about too much in this spot.

I agree a turn card of or is a check as they are so bad for our hand and smash his range so much making him all kinds of hands that now beat us.

[AMRN]

Brendan, not sure if you have played much on the Zoom tables. Whilst I agree that it is not poker in the classical sense, and we forego many of the opportunities for read based play that separate the fish from the decent players, I"m rapidly finding that Zoom has it"s place.  It"s not normal poker, and I can"t abide NLHE Zoom..... but PLO Zoom is proving to be one of the easiest ways to make money I"ve found in a while, simply by seeing lots of flops and betting for value when we hit against people who in the main can"t fold single pair hands and will stack off 100x. I see some of the Zoom regs at 25PL, often sitting with stacks around $250...... we don"t see that with such regularity on the normal tables.

[noble1]

[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qux8mGsifZU[/youtube]

see if any part of this gives u any ideas to add to your strategy rodders...

[deanp27]

 At 10nl readless I probably keep betting this hand until I get raised

[TheSnapper]

Well well, thats embarrassing jesus when I played rush many moons ago, HM was unable to keep up or even display a HUD.

Its a very interesting video, where do you dig them from Noble . He does make it look and sound very simple tbh, also, he does briefly mention that he recommends being over rolled, does anyone else think that is a key point for what looks a really high variance style.

You will at times (maybe even a sustained period where its often) run into top of their range and I suspect dealing with that and remaining on an even keel so to speak, is going to be crucial to your long term chances of profitability. Not sure my aversion to risk could cope tbh  

[pokerpops]

Villain starts hand with $4.68 which suggests a lack of sophistication. Auto top-up ftw

Betting turn and folding if he raises is probably cheaper than calling the river**.

As played, I think I call this off but I"m not going to be shocked to lose to Axcc or a set of tens or eights nor am I going to be surprised to see we"re winning vs A10/K10.


**espoused theory does not always eqate to theory in practice as my OU Lecturer used to delight in telling us

[AMRN]

Noble, that"s a great vid!  Just finished reconfiguring my Zoom HUD

[noble1]

No hands at all on my opponent. Think this is pretty standard but one of the leaks I have noticed in my game lately is calling too light on the river. How is the overall line? I know I should have bet the turn but felt I might get raised off it if he had the flush and thought I could call a river bet and get to the end for around the same price against a weaker range.

red bold - some thoughts for you to ponder Rodders
the concept of protection is going to be most important when we have a medium strength hand relative to the board and what we perceive our opponents range to be.......
when our range is protected we can make correct folds more easily because there is a lower chance of being bluffed....  when our range isn't protected we have a dilemma of whether or not we need to avoid folding too much or paying off too much.... [as is in your example]
if you have the opportunity to take a line where you are protected with a medium strength hand, it is often worth taking that line in the long term, especially at this sort of stake...

as you climb through the levels to say 200nl+ then its not necessarily important whether or not our range is actually protected, just whether our opponent perceives it to be....


green bold - maths
with 4 outs to the likely best hand on the turn, if say you bet 65% pot but get to see the river 90% of the time with at worst 9% equity and when you hit on the river you get at least another 65% pot bet called, math wise you"d need about 26% folds on the turn for the bet to break even... [against a slow played flush or set/straight plus Qx Xx etc TJ 79s J9s etc]

now i used a tad bit of guesstimating on villains ranges to arrive at the 90% we see the river if we bet the turn, its close Rodders between betting and checking... preference wise i"d favour betting as the hand readless will be easier to continue with...

if i can find a good article explaining the maths i"ll post it on your blog, if not then when i get time i"ll try to explain it as best as i can....


as played i"d call river as your turn check can induce enough spazziness/bluffs imho


go through your tracker base and filter for your turn checks and see what sort of success your river calls have Rodders on various textures...