Author Topic: APAT Tournaments v others  (Read 5144 times)

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SirPercival

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APAT Tournaments v others
« on: February 04, 2013, 19:40:29 PM »
A few recent posts containing words like "In an APAT tournament I would do this....." makes me wonder what others think on this matter.

Both on this forum, and others, where hands are posted for analysis, people often give a view on what they would do based on the fact it is "an APAT tournament". Unfortunatly they rarely say how there view changes because of the tournament.

Is it the structure? Is the buy-in? or more likely is there a view on the standard of play in comparision to others games?

Personnaly I have played in a wide range of games both in the UK and in Vegas, from a £10 home game to a WSOP and everything in between. My conclusions are that the early part of a $1000/$1500 buy-in WSOP can be a lot softer than any APAT event. A game in Caesars or the Venetian is a much better standard.

I recently played a UKIPT and found the early levels very soft but things changed by the end of Day 1 as players moved to/from the table. Did I just get a good table?

I have played a couple of games as DTD and found this is where the standard seems to vary to the extremes and is very table/position dependant.

So...what is different about a APAT and how do you adjust?

duke3016

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Re: APAT Tournaments v others
« Reply #1 on: February 04, 2013, 19:55:03 PM »

So...what is different about a APAT and how do you adjust?


erm I never adjust, always on plan  ;D

Des

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Re: APAT Tournaments v others
« Reply #2 on: February 04, 2013, 20:52:43 PM »
I tend to leave a wider gap between me and the bar...
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SirPercival

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Re: APAT Tournaments v others
« Reply #3 on: February 04, 2013, 22:04:32 PM »

I tend to leave a wider gap between me and the bar...


SIGH..... I was hoping to learn something new from this thread.

SirPercival

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Re: APAT Tournaments v others
« Reply #4 on: February 04, 2013, 22:05:49 PM »


So...what is different about a APAT and how do you adjust?


erm I never adjust, always on plan  ;D


I have seen you adjust. It involves a simple formula that relates to time.  ;)

Swinebag

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Re: APAT Tournaments v others
« Reply #5 on: February 04, 2013, 22:21:59 PM »
I"ll give a serious reply (or try to)

APAT tournaments tend to have players opening, 3 betting and peeling a lot tighter than other tournaments such as DTD deeps, UKIPTs and GPS........IMO

However it is pretty lazy thinking to label a whole field and base decisions based on what type of tourney it is.

There are a few spots where you may have moved tables and do not have many/any reads.

e.g. you open with TT in the h/j from a 35 BB stack and an unknown SB shoves a 15BB stack in your eye. I"m probably snapping here but in an APAT tournament I still snap but am not as happy about it.

So to answer your question, Stew, I don"t think you can make too many adjustments and just play each table and player as it comes

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dwh103

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Re: APAT Tournaments v others
« Reply #6 on: February 04, 2013, 23:39:51 PM »
I"d agree with Rob in that APAT tables are generally tighter. There used to be a lot of tight-weak play but not so much of that these days.

As for UKIPT, the only one I"ve played I had a shocker of a starting table. Couple of WSOPE final tablists, Sunday Mill winner, EPT final tablist. Fortunately I got moved pretty quick to a table with some marks!
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WYoung83

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Re: APAT Tournaments v others
« Reply #7 on: February 04, 2013, 23:41:46 PM »
Pretty much the last paragraph of what Rob said imo. Although in apats i did find you can exploit the last level of day 1, and the start of day 2 just before the bubble. (not that it happens often for me  :()

s4ooter

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Re: APAT Tournaments v others
« Reply #8 on: February 04, 2013, 23:48:08 PM »

I"d agree with Rob in that APAT tables are generally tighter. There used to be a lot of tight-weak play but not so much of that these days.

As for UKIPT, the only one I"ve played I had a shocker of a starting table. Couple of WSOPE final tablists, Sunday Mill winner, EPT final tablist. Fortunately I got moved pretty quick to a table with some marks!


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deanp27

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Re: APAT Tournaments v others
« Reply #9 on: February 05, 2013, 09:07:15 AM »
Not played many APATs in last 3 years but they were definitely nittier in early stages. This lead to fewer early busts but more pressure around the 600 and 800 blind levels etc when there were more stacks just below average.
This may have changed though over past couple of years.
Looking forward to making my first day 2

AAroddersAA

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Re: APAT Tournaments v others
« Reply #10 on: February 05, 2013, 11:46:54 AM »
That"s a good post there I will give it a go.

I would assume when somebody says this they are comparing APAT to a standard live tournament (not a UKIPT or GPS). To be honest there is not that much difference that I can see these days. APAT obviously does often have a small number of comparatively good players in it (compared with the average player base) due to the regs but I don"t think overall they are really of a higher standard as more than 50% of the field is made up of locals usually and a lot of them don"t really know how to play a pretty deep stacked tournament.

In the early stages hand reading and being able to play down the streets is more important than in normal events, due to stack size. In an APAT, regs probably have a bigger advantage here as it is likely something they do a lot more of than the locals at the tables. The regs also have enough chips due to the deep stacked structure to make more plays and pick up more chips in these early levels, you can get it wrong and not be affected whereas in a "normal" live event you would be left too short stacked to carry on playing the streets after getting a spot wrong. For more of the locals than you would think these tournaments are a big deal and they don"t want to bust out early where as most people on here will be playing loads of them and not be too bothered about busting out if they get unlucky. This should mean that you can play looser than normal in one of these and expect to do well against a field that is generally less experienced. I would normally expect to be able to double my stack in one without having to take too many risks unless I get a really bad table draw.

When the antes come in stealing pots is easier as you seem to get less people wanting to go call/call/call. Conversely getting big hands paid off is not so easy as it is in a lot of live tournaments adjust your play to suit. As the field thins the tournament becomes tougher quite quickly and you need to adjust to continue to gather chips. The adjustments are fairly simple usually - make them, most people don"t. In general at this stage 3-bets and big shoves tend to mean they have it even if it looks like a good spot to make a play. I would be less inclined to call 3-bets here than my understanding suggests you should be in some bigger events. This is player dependent, if for example it is certain players making the 3-bet I will give it less respect but my default line would be to believe against locals.

As day one comes to an end a LOT of people just want to make day two and this is REALLY exploitable. I would assume this is not unique to APAT and is the same in other multi-day tournaments, probably unique to those of us who don"t play above APAT level though. This basically comes down to aggression and doing the right things in the right spots. Most people won"t so make sure you do.

Day two to the final table is more about not being scared than anything else, pick your spots well and make the right play (there is at least one good way I can think of to pick up chips at this stage). I have bust on or near the bubble three times trying to push it hard at this point and I am sure I will do so again, now you really have to read the players right and know where you can and can"t make moves. A lot of people are scared as it can go wrong (as I said I have bust three times having had what I would consider correct moves go wrong). A lot of people again play scared and try to limp onto the final table. Don"t bother if you get to the final table get there with a chance to win. Bubble play is pretty standard.

The final table plays deeper than most finals you will come across due to the structure and number of chips in play. By this stage it is probably just a standard tournament with a good level of players to be honest. You just have to be able to play a final table and be good enough to win the tournament. This stage is probably a lot tougher than most live events with players more likely to be putting you to tough decisions. A player 3-bet shoving on an APAT final table is less likely to have a hand than a player shoving in most events on the final. Therefore AJ (for example) which is often an easy fold in other events becomes a tough decision in a APAT event. I remember once cold calling a 3-bet shove on the final table of an APAT with AT as I knew the original raiser and shover were good players and the original raiser was unlikely to have a hand and that the 3-bet shover was very likely to know this and see it as an ideal 3-bet shove spot. Situations this complex are unlikely to happen in standard events of the same buyin - my hand would never be good there.

*Disclaimer - the above is my view I don"t claim that it is likely to be exactly correct but is probably not a bad overview.

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Still trying to think of something amusing to write in this bit.

SirPercival

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Re: APAT Tournaments v others
« Reply #11 on: February 05, 2013, 12:59:12 PM »

Not played many APATs in last 3 years but they were definitely nittier in early stages. This lead to fewer early busts but more pressure around the 600 and 800 blind levels etc when there were more stacks just below average.
This may have changed though over past couple of years.


3 years ago most people were not used to 2 day event deepstacks which are now more widely available at this levey buy-in. I think that has made a difference.

I also think we should bring back the clapping on exits as nobody wanted to be the first out and that was exploitable IMO.

deanp27

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Re: APAT Tournaments v others
« Reply #12 on: February 05, 2013, 13:00:15 PM »
I have had that clap too many times, I don"t miss it tbh
Looking forward to making my first day 2

SirPercival

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Re: APAT Tournaments v others
« Reply #13 on: February 05, 2013, 13:03:07 PM »
Thanks all for the comments so far. I personally agree with Rob regarding playing the players at your table but others make some good points too which may explian the comments I referred to in the OP.

Rodders - Did you have to use AJ as the example there? The post was fantastic up until that point!  :D