Live spot v Rodders from Coventry

[Erimus]

Hand from Coventry, go for it or wait for a less marginal spot

Rodders raises utg 2k2 blinds 500/1000, folds to me in big blind I have 77,
I have around 32k, I 3 bet to 5k2, Rodders re raises to 14k, my only choice is shove or fold, What do you do.

[Laxie]

If you want to flip, by all means - go ahead and shove.  Personally, I"m folding and will prolly sprain my wrist doing it so fast.  

[SirPercival]

Very dependant on how many pints rodders has had that day.

[mporter123]

I remember this hand  

I would be peeling pre and going from there. Hand is too good to 3 bet fold and pretty optomistic to 5bet shove and be good. Best we can hope for is a flip usually. I wouldn"t expect Rodders to be going mental enough here to warrant the shove and sizing would indicate he is unlikely to fold.

Saying that I think he raised the K4o from EP a couple of hands previously?

[KarmaDope]

Don"t like the 3-bet pre unfortunately Bri, and really don"t like the sizing. Why are we 3-betting here? It"s definitely not going to get Rodders to pass as he has to pay 3k into a 9k+ pot, and 77 just doesn"t seem strong enough for me to an UTG raise to want to 3-bet. Do we think that Rodders is stealing here often because of your image and he knows that UTG raises get through a lot in APAT games?

Gotta agree with Mark and peel pre to the original raise as not folding a pair for a chance to see three cards for what is basically a min bet. Obv set mining so taking it easy on most flops though!

As played, however, I have to pass.

[AMRN]

I don"t like to 3bet here - gotta give some respect to the utg raise, even if it is Rodders. All the 3bet does is makes worse hands fold, and gives better hands (and bluffs) the opportunity to 4bet - and you can only really fold to the 4bet.   Open-calling with 77 is feasible, but you"re not deep enough to set mine......    It"s an open-fold for me.


As played, easy fold.  Shoving is never going to be profitable - can you really see Rodders 4bet folding UTG? So, if you shove, you probably get to showdown, and you"re hoping to be 50% at best.

[mporter123]

Steve - do you fold 77 but call 88, 99, 1010 here?

[Erimus]

As Mark said he had previously shown k4 as a utg raise and had to show because a short stack shoved, he had to call the shove based on pot odds.

With circa 30 bigs although it"s ok we still need to chip up to go deep, he had seen me flat with QQ in the bb earlier, I know he is now probably not raising as light because of the K4 hand, because of my image I think he folds AJ, poss AQ when he repops me the range I am putting him on is 10 10 plus AK, I wasnt going to call if he repopped me, my decision had been made before I 3 bet, think flatting is fine and another game i will flat but decided to go for the money already in the pot.

20 bigs I will take the flip hopefully, 30 bigs made the decision a bit more awkward.

Again if he flats and I do hit my miracle card, I think they call them sets, never seen one before, lol the pot is now bigger, he probably c bets most flops then it would be difficult for him to get away  from it.

I tell a lie there I did hit a set with 88 in that tourney.

We have to win flips to win tourneys at some point, even tens and jacks would be difficult to call here as well, sometimes we gotta go with it, I decided not to at this point, Rodders didn"t show but I asked him if I was dominated or flipping, he said flipping, I assume AK or AQ, wp Rodders, stuck it in my eye.

[AMRN]

Steve - do you fold 77 but call 88, 99, 1010 here?

The question is, are we deep enough to set mine profitably, and I don"t think we are.   So the question for 77-TT is still whether or not we are ahead of the UTG range.  If we 3bet TT, and Rodder"s 4bets, do we still fold? If the answer"s yes, then we"re playing our hand as a bluff.    If we decide that TT might be good against Rodders" UTG range, and we flat call, and the flop comes 9 high, what do we do when Rodders leads out for an amount that commits him to the pot, or what do we do when Rodders check/raises to set us all in?      So, no I don"t call with 88, 99, or TT in this spot.       I hate playing a stack around 30x - it"s too shallow to speculate with, and too deep to shove.  Interesting spot, and one where I acknowledge that I struggle.

[dwh103]

You can definitely set mine profitably from the BB here. From other positions it is a little harder but you"re getting a 50% "discount" and closing the action.

At 500/1000/100 (? I don"t really do antes) Brian has to call 1200 into 4700. If you call here you only need to win ~4k when you do hit in the long run to break even. That"s assuming we"re just looking to set mine and we don"t win the pot in any other way.

Whilst I do prefer a call as those darned sets are sometimes so difficult to spot there are some situations where you can use your image and/or Villain tendencies to 3b as long as you"re aware of the pros and cons of each. I"ve never actually spent a great deal of time at the table with Rodders, but based on his strategy musings I don"t think he"s the correct Villain to be getting creative with here. In position it"s a very different story but from the blinds it"s extra fruity - good advertising though

[MintTrav]

I don"t understand the 3-bet. He is unlikely to fold, so we are going to bloat the pot to play OOP with a hand that rarely flops well.

I had a similar situation on Saturday. Flatted with 77 and made my set on AJ7. He made his as well.

[deanp27]

peeeeeeeel the open. I presume he has us covered?

3betting BB vs UTG against a positionally aware opponent seems a disaster.

[kinboshi]

peeeeeeeel the open. I presume he has us covered?

Essential information really.  If you"re the effective stack then it seems like a simple call.

3betting BB vs UTG against a positionally aware opponent seems a disaster.

Very much this.  What was the thinking behind the 3-bet?

[AAroddersAA]

I was hoping this one would run on a bit. To answer the above I THINK I started the hand with around 60K

The table dynamic and history between the players are important and significant here. I know Brian is a very good player who will be aware of what is happening at the table. He has seen me raise K4 and Q3 from EP. He also knows that my range for an early position range is larger than most players, also I have been active anyway raising a fair number of hands. I was also playing fairly well I think. Brian can set mine profitably here but he can also 3-bet here. It does look like a pretty decent 3-bet spot. If I call he can hit a disguised set as well.

Brian is usually a tight player but he is playing against me here, and will certainly know he may be able to get 3-bet through some of the time. I have raise/folded a couple of times, although I am at least calling a lot here as I am going to have position post flop. Brian is also aware of my game and understands that I can have total air that i might fold. Maybe a bigger 3-bet is better though?

As it is I don"t mind Brian"s 3-bet at all, I think he already got one through against me and he is very much playing me here and not his cards. As above he has seen me raise/fold. The only problem with it is that it looks just like a great spot to do that. I am actually fairly sure against a lot of players this works as Brian would be three betting a tight looking range (So Brian"s perceived range gets a lot stronger as well) but that"s not so much the case here and Brian is clearly good enough to add all this up. So it"s now a good spot to 4-bet, even with hands where I would normally only be calling.

Now I thought I 4-bet to 16K but I may not remember the hand right. I also thought Brian had about 35K at the start of the hand, again I may not be remembering this exactly though. I was obviously snapping if he shoved and expecting to be racing I actually raised smaller rather than shoving to try and look stronger (as that is the size of raise I would make with AA or KK).

I am holding AK in this hand, not sure 77 is ever in great shape against me when I am 4-betting UTG although with that many chips in the pot. I suppose I CAN have 66 sometimes, maybe, and a small percentage of air. I have usually got at least two overcards though, or an overpair.

I think the fold here is correct, more marginal than this spot normally is though with the two players involved. Love playing this kind of hand though.

[AMRN]

I mis-read the OP and thought 77 was playing on the button.  Yes I agree that calling from the BB to set mine is a perfectly reasonable play, and I reckon that"s exactly what I would do in this spot.  Also, from the blinds, the 3bet is even less likely for me.... from the button perhaps, but not from the blinds. The size of the 3bet leaves Rodders with a mandatory call (at least) and position post flop.


Here"s another question though. As I said earlier up this thread, I hate playing 30bb stack (too small to play speculatively, and too big to shove). At what point does the stack become a legitimate shoving stack against a single raise?  In this particular example, if there have been a couple of callers on the way round, it could well be a reasonable play to shove 32x......  but perhaps not against a single player.   We often hear that 20bb is the perfect steal/shove stack size.... is that about right? or is it more/less?