Author Topic: Cash Tour Development - Finalise Format for DTD  (Read 11568 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

KarmaDope

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 1894
  • The Groom
    • Blonde Forum
Re: Cash Tour Development - Finalise Format for DTD
« Reply #15 on: August 08, 2013, 00:32:20 AM »

Buy In
£200 buy in worked well imo.

Late reg
Nothing against 30 mins, maybe an hour late reg, as long as a bunch of mates don"t end up at the same table.

Tokens
- Tokens/lammers for sure. I think it would be easiest if everyone buys in for £50+reg+champs fee, then any reloads before play starts to be done at the table. Saves messing around with different stacks and relying on tournament staff to make notes. £50 in chips plus 3 lammers can be ready and waiting at the table.

Deadline for rebuys
I don"t think there should be a deadline, anything that potentially forces players to add-on is a negative because...

Profit or stack size
If it"s to be truly open to all then people should be allowed to take a shot with a single buy-in, so I"m more in the profit bracket. You decide the best cash player by profit, not the size of their stack. However, whilst I think this should definitely be the criteria for qualifying for the final table, it might be a bit weird to have a winner with £500 and 2nd having £600. Profit to qualify, stack size to win, does consistency matter?

Incentives & timing
So far, numbers have restricted the success of the format imo. Moving it to Saturday would be a massive boost - no need for an extra nights hotel and the timings mentioned sound perfect - so much dead time of a Sunday morning to be filled and 1am isn"t really too late. Awesome idea.

Other
As it"s deeper, no opinion on straddles. And as long as the rules are clearly stated then either - I"d slightly fall down on the side of tournament rules though.


This would be perfect I reckon.
[IMG=http://www.vegasmessageboard.com/countdown/countdown.php?c=purple&f=3&y=2013&m=11&d=12&h=18&mi=20&o=0&p=1][/img]

AMRN

  • Staker Licensed Player
  • Platinum Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5261
Re: Cash Tour Development - Finalise Format for DTD
« Reply #16 on: August 08, 2013, 09:17:20 AM »

Profit to qualify, stack size to win, does consistency matter?


I reckon that"s the perfect halfway meet between those in the opposing camps of profit vs stack size.

Top 8 profit makers get to final table. Biggest stack at final wins.

This allows those with shorter bankrolls to play and compete, but then takes away all the worries about what everyone"s buy in was whilst playing the final.

SirPercival

  • Staker Licensed Player
  • Platinum Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3700
Re: Cash Tour Development - Finalise Format for DTD
« Reply #17 on: August 08, 2013, 09:24:54 AM »


Tokens
- Tokens/lammers for sure. I think it would be easiest if everyone buys in for £50+reg+champs fee, then any reloads before play starts to be done at the table. Saves messing around with different stacks and relying on tournament staff to make notes. £50 in chips plus 3 lammers can be ready and waiting at the table.



^^^^^^very much this

TheSnapper

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 1061
Re: Cash Tour Development - Finalise Format for DTD
« Reply #18 on: August 08, 2013, 14:24:56 PM »


This allows those with shorter bankrolls to play and compete, but then takes away all the worries about what everyone"s buy in was whilst playing the final.


So why remove "all the worries about what everyone"s buy in was" at final table but allow that uncertainty to complicate end of phase 1 play?
"Being wrong is erroneously associated with failure, when, in fact, to be proven wrong should be celebrated, for it elevates someone to a new level of understanding."

MarkTheShark

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 1418
    • The Pokeriety
Re: Cash Tour Development - Finalise Format for DTD
« Reply #19 on: August 08, 2013, 14:26:51 PM »
great feedback and comments so far guys - thank you - please keep them coming.

I especially like use of the phrase "awesome idea"...... 8)

SirPercival

  • Staker Licensed Player
  • Platinum Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3700
Re: Cash Tour Development - Finalise Format for DTD
« Reply #20 on: August 08, 2013, 15:12:07 PM »
How about...

Phase 1 - 25/50 - 1.5 hrs - late entry and tops-up allowed

Break - 10 minutes - remaining top-up can be taken now

Phase 2 - 25/50 - 1.5 hrs - no further entries or top-ups

Break - 20 minutes - chip counts and Final table set (with largest 8 stacks)

Phase 3 - 50/£1 - 2 hours

Gazza

  • Bronze Member
  • **
  • Posts: 66
Re: Cash Tour Development - Finalise Format for DTD
« Reply #21 on: August 08, 2013, 20:29:10 PM »
Would prefer it on the Friday.

Biggest stack not profit for me.

Late entries good.

Everything else seems fine to me.

KarmaDope

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 1894
  • The Groom
    • Blonde Forum
Re: Cash Tour Development - Finalise Format for DTD
« Reply #22 on: August 08, 2013, 21:31:17 PM »
This could be long, but I hope not... (note, these are just my opinions)

I think we need to know what APAT are aiming for with the Cash Championships. Is it a timed tournament, or a rake free cash game with a bonus at the end of the allotted time? This is confusing to most people. As it stands it feels somewhere in the middle without a distinct identity.

The structure currently is that each player can sit with anything between £50 and £200. Once you have lost £200 you are out of the game. If you sit with less than £200 then you can top up anything to £200 at any time you wish. You can "cashout" at any time and forfeit your £10 Championship Fee. In Cardiff, we saw a mixture of strategies. Some people bought in for £200. Some bought in for £100 and rebought once for the same amount if/when they lost their money. Some bought in for £50 and reloaded if/when they lost their money. The aim of "Phase 1" is to be one of the 8 largest stacks to make it to the final table, where on offer for the player with the highest stack after an additional time period was the "Championship Fee" prize pool of £180.

This does not work as it stands.

This is an innovative idea and APAT are surely planning on growing this. However, as it stands currently, people are not going to be interested in playing bar the same few every time. Again, this is my opinion, but some changes need to be made. We need to look at the following:

1) Target Audience.

APAT players are amateurs. Most people are looking for a cheap, deepstacked game that lasts longer than they would get on a Saturday night down the casino/at home. To them, £82.50 is a nice tournament that comes round once a month and can be seen as a "shot". Yes, some of us have bigger bankrolls/nicer paying jobs, but the players that are playing APATs are not the players that are willing/can afford to drop £215 on a 5hr game. It is not value for money.

2) Competition.

We play these events on a Friday night in the host casino. The host casino generally has their own regular tournament on and 1-2 small stakes cash games. We want these players, surely? At £215 we are not going to get them, it is just too much and again not value for money. Most regular APAT players who travel for the weekend use Friday night to socialise as well - given the choice between this game and their only night out, the night out will always win.

At the moment, as an APAT player looking in I see the lineup of the Cash Championships on one side, then I see the locals cash game on the other side and I know where I want to be - hint, it isn"t at the same table as Mr Murray, Mr Williams, Mr Webber and Mr Stacey et al!

You may notice I keep referring to the cost of the game as £215. I fully expect that people will say "well, you can buy in for less" but my own experience in Cardiff shows that you can, but to be fair if you don"t buy in for £215 you don"t have a shot at winning. In effect, the deeper pockets win currently and this is a turn off to people who don"t have the bankroll to play.

My suggestion to this would be to play as a shootout. Play Phase 1 as it currently stands with the 8 most profitable stacks offered the opportunity to go through to the final table, where each player must sit down with the minimum of £100 and can have up to £250 of their own money. If a player was to have >£250 at the end of Phase 1, then they get to "bank" some of this. Highest stack wins at the end of the allotted time. If any of the top 8 wish to cash out at the end of Phase 1, then 9th/10th etc get offered to take their place. 

[IMG=http://www.vegasmessageboard.com/countdown/countdown.php?c=purple&f=3&y=2013&m=11&d=12&h=18&mi=20&o=0&p=1][/img]

s4ooter

  • Staker Licensed Player
  • Platinum Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1253
  • @s4ooter
Re: Cash Tour Development - Finalise Format for DTD
« Reply #23 on: August 08, 2013, 21:36:48 PM »
I like the last sentence the most!! :)
Team Gotham - The Joker

Serial APAT Underachiever

dwh103

  • Staker Licensed Player
  • Platinum Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1110
  • @dwh103
Re: Cash Tour Development - Finalise Format for DTD
« Reply #24 on: August 08, 2013, 22:41:52 PM »
The only other thing I"d suggest is that instead of the Champions prize going to the champion - it"s staggered more like a SNG payout. Perhaps pay the same number of places as there are tables, maybe capping it at top 3?

Could open up some interesting dynamics and give some middle of the road players something extra to aim at? As Mr Murray has pointed out in the past, the winner already has the most money.

TEAM GOTHAM (Batman)

http://twitter.com/dwh103

Won some stuff too long ago for it to stay on a signature.

SirPercival

  • Staker Licensed Player
  • Platinum Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3700
Re: Cash Tour Development - Finalise Format for DTD
« Reply #25 on: August 09, 2013, 00:15:55 AM »

The only other thing I"d suggest is that instead of the Champions prize going to the champion - it"s staggered more like a SNG payout. Perhaps pay the same number of places as there are tables, maybe capping it at top 3?

Could open up some interesting dynamics and give some middle of the road players something extra to aim at? As Mr Murray has pointed out in the past, the winner already has the most money.




Great idea. Would make the last part of the Final more interesting IMO.

CW86

  • Staker Licensed Player
  • Silver Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 171
  • King slug
Re: Cash Tour Development - Finalise Format for DTD
« Reply #26 on: August 09, 2013, 00:33:30 AM »


The only other thing I"d suggest is that instead of the Champions prize going to the champion - it"s staggered more like a SNG payout. Perhaps pay the same number of places as there are tables, maybe capping it at top 3?

Could open up some interesting dynamics and give some middle of the road players something extra to aim at? As Mr Murray has pointed out in the past, the winner already has the most money.




Great idea. Would make the last part of the Final more interesting IMO.



I strongly disagree. This idea only works with a greater number of runners, at the moment i think graduating a payout is pointless, the money jumps will not be sufficient to encourage action, if anything it will discourage it.....this idea can only work when the tournament gets 40plus runners imo
TEAM GOTHAM (Robin....ffs)

dwh103

  • Staker Licensed Player
  • Platinum Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1110
  • @dwh103
Re: Cash Tour Development - Finalise Format for DTD
« Reply #27 on: August 09, 2013, 12:12:38 PM »



The only other thing I"d suggest is that instead of the Champions prize going to the champion - it"s staggered more like a SNG payout. Perhaps pay the same number of places as there are tables, maybe capping it at top 3?

Could open up some interesting dynamics and give some middle of the road players something extra to aim at? As Mr Murray has pointed out in the past, the winner already has the most money.




Great idea. Would make the last part of the Final more interesting IMO.



I strongly disagree. This idea only works with a greater number of runners, at the moment i think graduating a payout is pointless, the money jumps will not be sufficient to encourage action, if anything it will discourage it.....this idea can only work when the tournament gets 40plus runners imo


What jumps would you consider sufficient? Can obviously tweak rules regarding runners and payouts, so say 10 runners per place paid, up to top 3 on standard SNG payouts gives a split as such:

10 players - £100
20 players - £135-£65
30 players - £150-£90-£60
40 players - £200-£120-£80

I"d go a bit further and equalise the jumps a bit (so 150-100-50 for 30 runners), but £60ish feels like a reasonable minimum pay jump to me.

As for action, the single payment doesn"t help this in any way. The guy in 2nd may have exceptional value to make  -cEV call, but the flip side is true for the player in 1st who should then be avoiding all confrontations if vulnerable. It"s like a weird reverse ICM spot, or something.

The more players that have an incentive to create action, the more action there will likely be.
TEAM GOTHAM (Batman)

http://twitter.com/dwh103

Won some stuff too long ago for it to stay on a signature.

CW86

  • Staker Licensed Player
  • Silver Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 171
  • King slug
Re: Cash Tour Development - Finalise Format for DTD
« Reply #28 on: August 10, 2013, 11:40:42 AM »




The only other thing I"d suggest is that instead of the Champions prize going to the champion - it"s staggered more like a SNG payout. Perhaps pay the same number of places as there are tables, maybe capping it at top 3?

Could open up some interesting dynamics and give some middle of the road players something extra to aim at? As Mr Murray has pointed out in the past, the winner already has the most money.






Great idea. Would make the last part of the Final more interesting IMO.



I strongly disagree. This idea only works with a greater number of runners, at the moment i think graduating a payout is pointless, the money jumps will not be sufficient to encourage action, if anything it will discourage it.....this idea can only work when the tournament gets 40plus runners imo


What jumps would you consider sufficient? Can obviously tweak rules regarding runners and payouts, so say 10 runners per place paid, up to top 3 on standard SNG payouts gives a split as such:

10 players - £100
20 players - £135-£65
30 players - £150-£90-£60
40 players - £200-£120-£80

I"d go a bit further and equalise the jumps a bit (so 150-100-50 for 30 runners), but £60ish feels like a reasonable minimum pay jump to me.

As for action, the single payment doesn"t help this in any way. The guy in 2nd may have exceptional value to make  -cEV call, but the flip side is true for the player in 1st who should then be avoiding all confrontations if vulnerable. It"s like a weird reverse ICM spot, or something.

The more players that have an incentive to create action, the more action there will likely be.


Having given this quite a lot of thought i think im inclined to change my mind and agree with u. If there is enough money to make a 60-100 jump then i think it could work.
TEAM GOTHAM (Robin....ffs)

s4ooter

  • Staker Licensed Player
  • Platinum Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1253
  • @s4ooter
Re: Cash Tour Development - Finalise Format for DTD
« Reply #29 on: August 10, 2013, 17:15:35 PM »
Cant say i have ever had to worry about these problems ;)
Team Gotham - The Joker

Serial APAT Underachiever