Author Topic: APAT Main event hand  (Read 12443 times)

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Charlie44

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Re: APAT Main event hand
« Reply #15 on: August 28, 2013, 09:51:02 AM »



On the flop and turn I"m beating 99, TT, AK, AJ, KQ (maybe) and I"m loosing to AA, KK, JJ. I would be raising all in vs his turn bet.

What were your thoughts behind just calling?




Many thanks for your feedback. It really made me think about what I am trying to achieve.

You may not have noticed but it was a pot bet on the river that put Darren (and almost me) all in rather than 1/2 pot bet. So by calling the turn I don"t think this commits me to the hand. This may have altered your comments.

Generally at this stage of the tourney I would be looking to accumulate chips by getting maximum value from a hand - either by losing the least chips to the hands that beat me or winning the most chips from hands that I am beating. 
In my opinion by raising all in on the turn I may be doing the opposite -

The hands that are beating me are almost certainly calling and I lose the maximum. I know that in the hand he bet all in anyway on the river, but the river card was a good card for him to do that. A  blank river and he probably bets 1/3 to 1/2 pot and I lose less.

Very few hands if any that I am beating will call an all in on the turn. When I call the turn if he does check the river I will have to check back, but there is a good chance he will bluff the river with TT,99, AK , and again I gain chips. I am of course risking that he will suck out on the river but I believe that there is more likely he will bluff his worse hands than hit his limited outs.

The only time he may call a raise on the turn with a worse hand  is a draw KT or T9 but he would be wary of the possibility of drawing dead on a paired board and certainly would not have the odds to call a pot bet.

More than happy to further discuss if you don"t agree.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2013, 10:05:11 AM by Charlie44 »

deanp27

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Re: APAT Main event hand
« Reply #16 on: August 28, 2013, 10:25:18 AM »
calling down is way better than raising turn in my opinion. It just folds out all his bluffs and weaker hands and he snaps off everything that beats you.
Looking forward to making my first day 2

TheSnapper

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Re: APAT Main event hand
« Reply #17 on: August 28, 2013, 13:54:50 PM »
Ruling out all Jx combos on the reasonable assumption that Darren is more likely to check turn with those holdings, his river pure value range QQ,JJ, 2 combo"s and AA,KK, 6 combo"s is a small part of his total range.

From Darren"s point of view, if he can totally rule out Jx from our range then we can include the remaining other 6 combo"s of AQ in Darren"s value range.

Now we need to decide how likely it is that Darren barreled the turn with AK and TT-88

Based on a river range of...

AA-88,AKo-AQo,AKs-AQs,KQs and discounting AK, TT-88 because Darren will check those hands on the turn sometimes (say 50% for convenience).

I make it 34 combo"s of which  41% beat us, 24% chop and 35% are bluffs. Darren"s turn barrel frequency with air is the big variable here but the call/fold decision is close even if he 100% barrels those hands.

What a gross spot but I think folding is best.




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CW86

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Re: APAT Main event hand
« Reply #18 on: August 28, 2013, 18:19:02 PM »








The hands u suggest like 99 -1010 will almost certainly never be in my 3 betting range,



Chris - I appreciate your feedback.

Sorry perhaps I didn"t make myself clear, my original thinking at the table was that if the 3 bet lighter to my left (Tom ?) 3 bet, then it may force Darren to fold in an awkward spot and I would be happy to continue with  Tom heads up. However  I now think Darren is quite capable of 4 betting in that situation with TT,99, AJ  and I would have to decide how to decide to proceed with my AQ probably for my tourney life. If had 3 bet myself I guess  Tom gets out of the way and with my image Darren may well fold his TT,99, AJ holdings.




Ha yes, it would help if i could read...
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Charlie44

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Re: APAT Main event hand
« Reply #19 on: August 28, 2013, 19:08:33 PM »




I raise pre 95% of the time in that spot. That changes the entire hand and the rest of the hand would have run out differently.

By not raising pre or post flop you have not forced him to define his hand and u have no more idea about what he has than when he initially opened pre flop.




Thanks for your post. I can see the merits in doing this. Just out of interest would you always be folding to 4 bet pre, or if he calls 3 bet pre stacking off to innocent looking Axx or Qxx flops?



Drewski

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Re: APAT Main event hand
« Reply #20 on: August 28, 2013, 23:27:10 PM »

Many thanks for your feedback. It really made me think about what I am trying to achieve.

You may not have noticed but it was a pot bet on the river that put Darren (and almost me) all in rather than 1/2 pot bet. So by calling the turn I don"t think this commits me to the hand. This may have altered your comments.


I didn"t think that you were pot committed as such, but by just calling on each street it"s led to a situation where it"s nearly all in to call. So it"s put you in a horrible spot. As pot control in my view was not an option here due to stack sizes and being a three way pot then I usually want to be the aggressor and define my hand as early possible. However his C bet on the flop into two people is strong on this board. Really awkward.

I like what you tried to do pre and its a shame the squeeze didn"t come.

Really eager to know what happened :)


Charlie44

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Re: APAT Main event hand
« Reply #21 on: August 29, 2013, 00:25:30 AM »


Really eager to know what happened :)




Patience !! ;)

CW86

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Re: APAT Main event hand
« Reply #22 on: August 29, 2013, 17:28:23 PM »
 Wish I could give feedback anonymously....
TEAM GOTHAM (Robin....ffs)

Charlie44

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Re: APAT Main event hand
« Reply #23 on: August 29, 2013, 18:50:55 PM »

Wish I could give feedback anonymously....


Intruiging  ;)

Charlie44

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Re: APAT Main event hand
« Reply #24 on: August 29, 2013, 19:59:51 PM »

Wish I could give feedback anonymously....


You could PM me. You know there"d be no leaks from here ! ;)

JM

TheSnapper

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Re: APAT Main event hand
« Reply #25 on: August 30, 2013, 11:57:14 AM »

Wish I could give feedback anonymously....


That"ll help everyone ::)
"Being wrong is erroneously associated with failure, when, in fact, to be proven wrong should be celebrated, for it elevates someone to a new level of understanding."

Charlie44

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Re: APAT Main event hand
« Reply #26 on: August 31, 2013, 16:39:19 PM »
Many thanks to everybody who contributed to the debate on this hand, without feeling the need for anonymity (still not sure what that was about - maybe I"ll find out in time).  It certainly helped in my continuing education in poker, in what I thought was a very interesting hand .

The hand that Darren showed down was ........  AA.

At the time I was amazed. I thought a pot bet after the Jack on the river meant he was very polarised. He either had a Jack or was bluffing with perhaps AK,TT. How wrong was I !  

I assume he was confident that the majority of my holdings had a queen and that I"d call a pot bet with top pair. My game is clearly too predictable which I will have to work on.

Very well played Darren. Really felt I was levelled. Look forward to future hands between us.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2013, 16:44:46 PM by Charlie44 »

CW86

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Re: APAT Main event hand
« Reply #27 on: August 31, 2013, 18:25:47 PM »

Wish I could give feedback anonymously....


Sorry that could of been clearer. That comment wasn"t really to do with that hand in particular, but i will say im a big fan of the river bet sizing.

My issue with people knowing anything i put forward is that they know who i am and i dont know who they are or if they read these threads. It can make them play even better against me in the future and i can def be exploited!

I love analysing and dissecting hands with friends and prob sometimes go into excessive detail. But the difference is i kno who iv"e spoken to and it has a big impact on how i play hands against them in the future. Thats when u start getting into levelling wars and things really get fun!

I hope that clears things up, at no point did i mean to imply i had anything negative to say on this hand
« Last Edit: August 31, 2013, 18:33:10 PM by CW86 »
TEAM GOTHAM (Robin....ffs)

Charlie44

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Re: APAT Main event hand
« Reply #28 on: August 31, 2013, 18:48:01 PM »
Chris - many thanks for clearing this up.

I now fully understand your commments and fully respect your reasoning.

One thing I would say (slightly tongue in cheek) I am sure you feel an obligation to help in the educating less knowledgeable players ( including myself) and I know the community forum would benefit from hearing your views.

Perhaps it may be technically possible to allow posting of anonymous comments (administrators ?).

Or perhaps you will have to adapt like Doyle Brunson or Gus Hansen after writing their books   :D