Author Topic: Let's Talk HUD's  (Read 14423 times)

0 Members and 4 Guests are viewing this topic.

TightEnd

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 9936
  • If Carlsberg did live updates, I'd be a lager
Re: Let's Talk HUD's
« Reply #30 on: October 09, 2013, 13:11:58 PM »

Is this a spying mission Leigh? in support of Rob Yong"s recent absurd observations and stance around the current status of online poker.


Defintely not absurd. Even leaving aside the issue of HUDs for a moment a lot of his ideas around the recreational player experience (chat box abuse putting off players, anonymity putting off players, bots/cheating scandals etc) are extremely popular


Chipaccrual

  • Administrator
  • Platinum Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11339
    • APAT
Re: Let's Talk HUD's
« Reply #31 on: October 09, 2013, 13:49:59 PM »

Leigh

You have precisely the same reasons as I do playing poker. I have no interest in playing nosebleed stakes, so the odd loss from a leak I can live with. I shall assume that you"re pretty comfortable with your own game, eg how aggressive/passive/tight/loose you are?


I"m okay with my game, although I"m not sure how much "game" I actually have.  I make mistakes, but try to learn from them.  I made a mistake in a satellite the other night, posted it up on here, and very quickly got confirmation that I played it incorrectly.

I made a mistake with my exit hand at Wembley.  Should have lost the hand, but shouldn"t have gone bust.

I don"t regret either of those examples, but will learn from them.  Poker software wouldn"t have helped me in either of those situations, at least I don"t think it would.

Interestingly, chatting to an APATer about this thread, I suggested that I might ask if poker software could help me win flips, or stop me running Kings into Aces (a bit tongue in cheek), but the suggestion was that it could help with that element of your play, and they have experiences that would prove that.

Anyone else got experiences of poker software helping their overall game, and not just the more statistical elements that have been discussed ?


Thanks, Leigh, for giving a perfect description of my poker life! I also started in 2004 (or was it 2005) and am about break-even. I am intrigued by all this poker software, but given that I"ve only had the time to play once in the last six weeks, I clearly don"t do the volume. Like Andy, I prefer live when I do get the chance to play. Anyone for the Rendezvous £200 Saturday 26th October (half-term, obviously)?

I might give this software lark a go when I"m old(er) and retired.


Sounds like we"ve a similar poker past, apart from the fact you"ve done Vegas.  That"s still on my list.   :D

TheSnapper

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 1061
Re: Let's Talk HUD's
« Reply #32 on: October 09, 2013, 14:18:05 PM »


Is this a spying mission Leigh? in support of Rob Yong"s recent absurd observations and stance around the current status of online poker.


Defintely not absurd. Even leaving aside the issue of HUDs for a moment a lot of his ideas around the recreational player experience (chat box abuse putting off players, anonymity putting off players, bots/cheating scandals etc) are extremely popular



Firstly, this agenda has its roots here in Phil Galfond"s blog. Phil Galfond imho is the most honest, humble and informed voice in the entire poker world but even so, he is not impartial and as he freely admits in that blog, some changes that are good for him, will hurt others. That is a core problem for all of us who participate in this debate and especially so for the Cardroom owners.

DTD online choose to offer their product on the ipoker network, hardly the model for customer care. Until recently they chose to close winning accounts as a solution to their inter-skin rake wars problem. That is a statement with substance which for me far outweighs any rhetoric or grand aspirational platitudes Mr Yong cares to offer.

As far as security issues, this is not a topic that needs discussing, allocate a budget and go after those who break the rules. Not doing so is akin to poor hygiene in a food business, do not allow your customers to fall ill because you haven"t been sufficiently diligent.





"Being wrong is erroneously associated with failure, when, in fact, to be proven wrong should be celebrated, for it elevates someone to a new level of understanding."

TightEnd

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 9936
  • If Carlsberg did live updates, I'd be a lager
Re: Let's Talk HUD's
« Reply #33 on: October 09, 2013, 14:34:59 PM »



Is this a spying mission Leigh? in support of Rob Yong"s recent absurd observations and stance around the current status of online poker.


Defintely not absurd. Even leaving aside the issue of HUDs for a moment a lot of his ideas around the recreational player experience (chat box abuse putting off players, anonymity putting off players, bots/cheating scandals etc) are extremely popular



Firstly, this agenda has its roots here in Phil Galfond"s blog. Phil Galfond imho is the most honest, humble and informed voice in the entire poker world but even so, he is not impartial and as he freely admits in that blog, some changes that are good for him, will hurt others. That is a core problem for all of us who participate in this debate and especially so for the Cardroom owners.

DTD online choose to offer their product on the ipoker network, hardly the model for customer care. Until recently they chose to close winning accounts as a solution to their inter-skin rake wars problem. That is a statement with substance which for me far outweighs any rhetoric or grand aspirational platitudes Mr Yong cares to offer.

As far as security issues, this is not a topic that needs discussing, allocate a budget and go after those who break the rules. Not doing so is akin to poor hygiene in a food business, do not allow your customers to fall ill because you haven"t been sufficiently diligent.









DTD chose to go to IPoker instead of Boss, which is clearly declining and an inferior product. Unless your are Stars/Tilt or a specialist site such as Sky Poker, its likely that the online landscape will change dramatically in the next five years and that very few networks will be around. IPoker will be one of those.

The MD of APAT, who chose to run an IPoker skin in his other world, probably agrees

Using language like "absurd" which you did is far more ludicrous than anything Rob Yong said. You may disagree with his point of view but to use language like you did was a bit lazy i think. Its his point of view, which he holds strongly. Certainly not absurd. Evne if you think its incorrect.

You are correct that there are big issues afoot. Online poker is in decline, over and above reasons of recession, and initiatives like this can potentially attract new people into the market. Its actually very aligned with what APAT has tried to do snce 2005

The problem with HUDs, specifically is not the issue of whether they give an advantage or not (plenty of people use them just to track results, rather than in game) but that for many recreational players they THINK its not a level playing field. Its an issue of perception that no amount of education can change

They also dislike being told to "die of cancer" when they outdraw a "grinder" to use an extreme example

Issues such as in game etiquette, bots, collusion etc all detract from the growth prospects of the industry and yes all sites spend a lot on these issues. Is IPoker as good at that as Stars? No, clearly not

This is obviously only from one angle, but from someone who makes a living analysing HUD stats for a staking operation its quite interesting i think

http://www.bluffeurope.com/PokerMagazine/Levelling-the-Field_147.aspx

TheSnapper

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 1061
Re: Let's Talk HUD's
« Reply #34 on: October 09, 2013, 14:51:59 PM »


DTD chose to go to IPoker instead of Boss, which is clearly declining and an inferior product. Unless your are Stars/Tilt or a specialist site such as Sky Poker, its likely that the online landscape will change dramatically in the next five years and that very few networks will be around. IPoker will be one of those.

The MD of APAT, who chose to run an IPoker skin in his other world, probably agrees

Using language like "absurd" which you did is far more ludicrous than anything Rob Yong said. You may disagree with his point of view but to use language like you did was a bit lazy i think. Its his point of view, which he holds strongly. Certainly not absurd. Evne if you think its incorrect.

You are correct that there are big issues afoot. Online poker is in decline, over and above reasons of recession, and initiatives like this can potentially attract new people into the market. Its actually very aligned with what APAT has tried to do snce 2005

The problem with HUDs, specifically is not the issue of whether they give an advantage or not (plenty of people use them just to track results, rather than in game) but that for many recreational players they THINK its not a level playing field. Its an issue of perception that no amount of education can change

They also dislike being told to "die of cancer" when they outdraw a "grinder" to use an extreme example

Issues such as in game etiquette, bots, collusion etc all detract from the growth prospects of the industry and yes all sites spend a lot on these issues. Is IPoker as good at that as Stars? No, clearly not

This is obviously only from one angle, but from someone who makes a living analysing HUD stats for a staking operation its quite interesting i think

http://www.bluffeurope.com/PokerMagazine/Levelling-the-Field_147.aspx


Most of those issues can be dealt with very quickly but at a cost to the providers, which I suspect is not an insignificant factor. It is absurd imho to pay lip service to issues that are firmly in your control should you wish to address those issues.

You may deem that to be lazy on my part, an opinion you are quite entitled to have and to voice, but then again we could say that about my assertions too.

If stars can do it?

« Last Edit: October 10, 2013, 14:04:56 PM by TheSnapper »
"Being wrong is erroneously associated with failure, when, in fact, to be proven wrong should be celebrated, for it elevates someone to a new level of understanding."

Sugar_Free

  • Gold Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 756
Re: Let's Talk HUD's
« Reply #35 on: October 09, 2013, 16:02:01 PM »
I"d like to know the difference between "absurd" and "ludicrous"
S4 G UK Team - LPM
S6 S UK Online, B Online Team Cup, Home Internationals - England "B", Irish Online
S7 G (& Bracelet) WCOAP Online
S8 G Scottish Online, B WCOAP Stud
S9 S WCOAP Team - England, B UK Team - LPM
S10 S Irish Online, England Captain - WCOAP
S13 B UK Team - APAT Degens

wizzlet

  • New Member
  • *
  • Posts: 30
Re: Let's Talk HUD's
« Reply #36 on: October 09, 2013, 18:36:23 PM »

AAroddersAA

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 2609
Re: Let's Talk HUD's
« Reply #37 on: October 09, 2013, 23:42:10 PM »


Leigh

You have precisely the same reasons as I do playing poker. I have no interest in playing nosebleed stakes, so the odd loss from a leak I can live with. I shall assume that you"re pretty comfortable with your own game, eg how aggressive/passive/tight/loose you are?


I"m okay with my game, although I"m not sure how much "game" I actually have.  I make mistakes, but try to learn from them.  I made a mistake in a satellite the other night, posted it up on here, and very quickly got confirmation that I played it incorrectly.

I made a mistake with my exit hand at Wembley.  Should have lost the hand, but shouldn"t have gone bust.

I don"t regret either of those examples, but will learn from them.  Poker software wouldn"t have helped me in either of those situations, at least I don"t think it would.

Interestingly, chatting to an APATer about this thread, I suggested that I might ask if poker software could help me win flips, or stop me running Kings into Aces (a bit tongue in cheek), but the suggestion was that it could help with that element of your play, and they have experiences that would prove that.

Anyone else got experiences of poker software helping their overall game, and not just the more statistical elements that have been discussed ?

Yes, but I have already outlined them.

Poker Software (not purely the HUD) has helped me identify and work on leaks in my own game such as playing too loose from certain positions and pick them up there and then and correct them, wothout the software it would take longer to identify this.

Looking at opponents games has helped me identify "standard spots".. An easy example being the type of spot to steal the blinds in during a cash game and my example from earlier in the thread of when it is profitable to cbet any two cards. It has made me far more aware that these dynamics actually exist and more aware of the type of player I am up against and how to exploit them in a live game.

The software helps you play a lot of spots more correctly and this then become part of your natural game. Not sure how well I have explained this but Yes, Poker Tracker and my HUD have definitely helped me develop my overall game in a number of different ways.
-----------------------------

Still trying to think of something amusing to write in this bit.

AAroddersAA

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 2609
Re: Let's Talk HUD's
« Reply #38 on: October 09, 2013, 23:56:18 PM »
-----------------------------

Still trying to think of something amusing to write in this bit.

pokerplayerplayer18

  • New Member
  • *
  • Posts: 4
Re: Let's Talk HUD's
« Reply #39 on: October 24, 2013, 11:46:30 AM »
i really feel like huds can be spoken about until the cows come home but at the end of the day they are here. some players use them, some dont. some try to use but use incorrectly and some base their games souly around it.

variety is the spice of life :)

Kronsdat

  • Silver Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 170
Re: Let's Talk HUD's
« Reply #40 on: October 25, 2013, 20:31:12 PM »
I got "Tournament Indicator" about 5 years ago when I was playing $10 and $20 SnG"s.  It helped me get to a +ev game very quickly and I became a successful "grinder" at those levels.  However, I got bored with those games and packed them in about 3 years ago.

I now only play tournaments, usually just one or two at a time.  I have Tournament Indicator on in the background in these because, particularly in the early stages, it gives me instant information on the other players when I have some cards I want to play.  This means I can read or watch "Peaky Blinders" on the iPad, instead of mentally compiling information on the other players  :)  Lazy, but it works for me. 

When I get down to 15 BB"s or so, I give the game my full attention and often switch TI off.  

Matt D

  • Administrator
  • Platinum Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4485
Re: Let's Talk HUD's
« Reply #41 on: October 25, 2013, 22:22:42 PM »
What"s the best HUD to set up for SNGs on say Pokerstars? I"ve 600+ games worth of figures I can feed it as a start (though I know that"s hardly any).

Ideally I"d like the database to record my game results *without* me having to manually input them all myself - as I know PokerTracker used to insist you do (kind of defeating the point of it).
APAT Online is on Grosvenor Poker. Down the software from http://www.apat.com/grosvenor-poker

AAroddersAA

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 2609
Re: Let's Talk HUD's
« Reply #42 on: October 25, 2013, 23:21:02 PM »

What"s the best HUD to set up for SNGs on say Pokerstars? I"ve 600+ games worth of figures I can feed it as a start (though I know that"s hardly any).

Ideally I"d like the database to record my game results *without* me having to manually input them all myself - as I know PokerTracker used to insist you do (kind of defeating the point of it).

MTT or STT?

PT does not require you to manually enter tournament results any more.
-----------------------------

Still trying to think of something amusing to write in this bit.

Matt D

  • Administrator
  • Platinum Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4485
Re: Let's Talk HUD's
« Reply #43 on: October 28, 2013, 11:18:52 AM »


What"s the best HUD to set up for SNGs on say Pokerstars? I"ve 600+ games worth of figures I can feed it as a start (though I know that"s hardly any).

Ideally I"d like the database to record my game results *without* me having to manually input them all myself - as I know PokerTracker used to insist you do (kind of defeating the point of it).

MTT or STT?

PT does not require you to manually enter tournament results any more.


18 man ones. Good to hear that about PT. Was the reason I stopped using it.
APAT Online is on Grosvenor Poker. Down the software from http://www.apat.com/grosvenor-poker

AAroddersAA

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 2609
Re: Let's Talk HUD's
« Reply #44 on: October 30, 2013, 22:51:58 PM »



What"s the best HUD to set up for SNGs on say Pokerstars? I"ve 600+ games worth of figures I can feed it as a start (though I know that"s hardly any).

Ideally I"d like the database to record my game results *without* me having to manually input them all myself - as I know PokerTracker used to insist you do (kind of defeating the point of it).

MTT or STT?

PT does not require you to manually enter tournament results any more.


18 man ones. Good to hear that about PT. Was the reason I stopped using it.

I am not very good at these but for 180 manners I use a pretty basic one

VPIP / PFR / 3-BET / FOLD TO 3-BET
HANDS / CBET FLOP / FOLD TO CBET FLOP
ATTEMPT TO STEAL / FOLD TO STEAL ATTEMPT

That is enough for me to narrow down ranges enough to be confident of my shove/call ranges against most players
-----------------------------

Still trying to think of something amusing to write in this bit.