$2.50 180 man

[mporter123]

PokerStars Hand #106735587327: Tournament #814955867, $2.28+$0.22 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level I (10/20) - 2013/11/09 9:16:30 WET [2013/11/09 4:16:30 ET]
Table "814955867 11" 9-max Seat #7 is the button
Seat 1: Meijerdinho (2990 in chips)
Seat 3: Al1k0 (1470 in chips)
Seat 4: Tomukas XIII (1470 in chips)
Seat 5: aaaalexxx (1350 in chips)
Seat 6: GORYSLAV (1470 in chips)
Seat 7: Christoph42 (1470 in chips)
Seat 8: bluecat1234 (1750 in chips)
Seat 9: Mark_Port157 (1530 in chips)
bluecat1234: posts small blind 10
Mark_Port157: posts big blind 20
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Mark_Port157 [ ]
Meijerdinho: folds
Al1k0: folds
Tomukas XIII: folds
aaaalexxx: folds
GORYSLAV: raises 40 to 60
Christoph42: folds
bluecat1234: calls 50
Mark_Port157: calls 40
*** FLOP *** [ ]
bluecat1234: checks
Mark_Port157: checks
GORYSLAV: bets 80
bluecat1234: folds
Mark_Port157: raises 125 to 205
GORYSLAV: calls 125
*** TURN *** [ ] []
Mark_Port157: checks
GORYSLAV: checks
*** RIVER *** [ ] []
Mark_Port157: bets 295

Think pre and every street is debatable.

SB is marked as a calling station, not seen opening raiser before and its very early so no other info.

Will post my thoughts later, interested in whether people think we should just bet call off on the turn.

[dwh103]

Pre"s fine, vs some I 3bet, but flat a lot too. I don"t play these, but it feels a flatting spot against what I"d expect the average villains to be. No need to be getting too funky.

So I hate the flop. More so if Villain is unknown. Just fold and move on - what are you hoping to achieve? He may not even fold AQ with your raise sizing.

Turn as played is interesting, would want to have a proper think about it. Feels quite close between a bet or check. As for the river, you"ve basically built a pot worth winning, out of position, with complete air, and even to the most basic of players a bluff just doesn"t have any credibility. Might work, but marginal at best.

[mporter123]

Just re-read the board, was attempting to rep Q10 on the end thinking it had just made the straight but didn"t realise the straight was already out there. Silly mistake as obviously would never check Q10 on the turn so, your right, the bluff makes no sense. Still might get folds from some one pair hands though?

I don"t tend to battle for pots like this early on but when he sizes it so small into 3 guys on the flop, its never a nutted hand. I think the turn is a bet, call off.

[AAroddersAA]

Fold pre.

Early on just play very very tight in these things. AT OOP is a marginal hand anyway and it is unlikely to be profitable to play it.

Fold the flop. I don"t see what we ever gain by trying to win this pot here, the chips we lose are far more valuable than the chips we win and our stack size remains about the same anyway.

Bet/Call off on the turn I suppose, as we have now created the situation we have to play it. We should never be in this situation though in one of these. Until at least the 50/100 level we should be playing super tight ABC poker. AT and AJ are folds from the BB in this spot. Personally I fold AQ as well, although that might not be exactly right.

[wizzlet]

Previous posts are spot on, calling in bb with ATs is a leak in these tournies, and tricky to play post flop too. I also bin AQo here because of its small gain or potentially big loss implications. Better to not dribble away chips and keep a good stack for later.

[mporter123]

Personally I fold AQ as well, although that might not be exactly right.

I agree about playing snug early pre antes but really?? Your folding AQ to a single raise from the button and a cold caller from the station small blind?? This is a $2.50 sit n go, lots of people playing them will have no idea! Why would we want to fold such a massive hand?

Your basically saying don"t play any hands for the first 3 levels. I want to get involved with players that I think I have an edge against regardless of the tournament level. I think I will win a lot more big pots than I will lose them and I am not stacking off on Ace high boards when I call with this type of hand.

As a general principle, I agree, in these $2.50"s play tight in the early levels and then just do the shove thing but I am not going to pass up decent situations to win lots of small pots - they might be small but they add up. I think all options pre are fine, for me the hand is too big to fold.

I agree that we can debate A10s being a call pre just about, but never AQ.

This hand specifically is spewy, flop is clearly just a fold. He snapped the river with J10 btw.

[mporter123]

Previous posts are spot on, calling in bb with ATs is a leak in these tournies, and tricky to play post flop too. I also bin AQo here because of its small gain or potentially big loss implications. Better to not dribble away chips and keep a good stack for later.

I would need the most specific read ever not to 3b AQ for pure value here.

We have a read that the SB is a station, he is likely to call with dominated Aces along with much worse and we can win full stacks.

Ignoring the butchered hand history, I also disagree that ATs is that tricky to play post flop - especially when we know a fish is in the hand.

Somebody tell me I am approaching these all wrong if I am.

[AAroddersAA]

Personally I fold AQ as well, although that might not be exactly right.

Your basically saying don"t play any hands for the first 3 levels. I want to get involved with players that I think I have an edge against regardless of the tournament level. I think I will win a lot more big pots than I will lose them and I am not stacking off on Ace high boards when I call with this type of hand.

Yes that is what I am saying, play AA, KK, QQ and JJ play AK (don"t bother with set mining in most cases unless the odds are just ridiculously good - eg you are in the BB and UTG has min raised and whole table has called). If you don"t hit top pair shut down and give up (aka check/fold). Not playing AQ might be a bit tight as I said but I am happy with it to be honest (actually I would open with it if it folds to me OTB on in the cut off). However I would not be critical of anybody playing it. If you are going too though don"t 3-bet it flat call and only proceed if you hit the flop. Against calling stations they peel, you miss the flop most of the time and have no clue where you are.

As for not stacking off on ace high boards, if I call a raise with AK (as I would just flat that hand) I am absolutely planning to stack off with it on an ace high board. I guess AQ could be played the same way. Would you stack off on a 10 high board with AT? How about a Jack high board with AJ? Problem is how do you play it when the Cbet comes in and then the station calls. You can"t fold, I don"t like raising and you only have 1500 chips. We got a 180 pot and the cbet is often around 120, if the fish calls I assume you just call then you end up with a 540 pot, a hand that might be best and ~1350 chips behind. The turn is safe and we check I assume and the button bets 250, what now? Do we fold? That feels too weak. Call? Well OK but we have to fold to a shove OTR? We have put one third of our chips in the pot and then fold.

This is the reason I think at least AT and AJ have to be folds. AQ for me is the discussion hand. I WANT to get all the chips in the middle when I hit the top pair. I don"t want to end up having to fold the hand as I lose too many chips in the process. In a standard stars tournament where I start with 3K or 5K and have much more time (15 min clock) I play it your way. Not in these though they are different and chip preservation is key.

Good post by the way and interesting discussion.

[mporter123]

I agree about wanting to get all the chips in with AQ/AK hands on an Ace high flop.

I was making the point that if I flat ATs in the big blind and the flop comes Axx, I am not going to be going broke every time to bigger Aces that dominate me.

The discussion with AQ is 3b or call, I am sure its never ever open fold in this spot, even more so when we know we have a station in the SB. When we get to 50/100 - what difference has folding every hand before made and having 1500 chips to shove rather than playing some hands before, perhaps losing a couple of pots, and having 1200 chips to shove? We have preserved an extra 300 chips but what has that actually got us? Worth the added fold equity?

Posted the hand on Blonde too so the wizards can take a look.

[AAroddersAA]

I agree about wanting to get all the chips in with AQ/AK hands on an Ace high flop.

I was making the point that if I flat ATs in the big blind and the flop comes Axx, I am not going to be going broke every time to bigger Aces that dominate me.

The discussion with AQ is 3b or call, I am sure its never ever open fold in this spot, even more so when we know we have a station in the SB. When we get to 50/100 - what difference has folding every hand before made and having 1500 chips to shove rather than playing some hands before, perhaps losing a couple of pots, and having 1200 chips to shove? We have preserved an extra 300 chips but what has that actually got us? Worth the added fold equity?

Posted the hand on Blonde too so the wizards can take a look.

So what is the plan on an Ace high flop? What about a 10 high flop? What are you doing when he cbets and the SB calls? How are you then going to proceed on the turn? Considering our small starting stacks these pots can get quite big quite quick. We only start with 75BB and after 5 mins we only have 50. We can"t really put in much and then fold.

The difference between having around 1400 chips and 1200 chips is we have an extra 400 after we double through and that is quite significant. Every double through is bigger or we have a little more time. The opposite is also true of course if you win an extra 300 chips but the chips you win just seem less valuable than the ones you lose and with marginal hands you get in tough spots where you lose more than just 300 chips.

[mporter123]

We do seem very glass half empty.

We can"t really put in much and then fold.

I disagree. I will put in chips when I think I am winning, if I think I am losing then I will fold (hopefully). In the case you describe then I would likely check call flop and turn and then, yes, fold river. I have lost some chips, oh dear. That is the worst case scenario though.

There will be lots of lovely scenarios where I can check call down, the river goes check check and we win. Lots of scenarios where the flop is checked round, and we get two streets of value from the station on the turn and river.  Lots of scenarios where we can make make neatly disguised flushes, two pairs, straights etc.

I watched a video you made playing like a lunatic on the cash table. Yes this is different but I know your not scared of playing through the streets, even more so when we have a solid read that a bad player is in the pot and we will have position on him. I think your underestimating how much of an edge you have post flop, we can"t exploit that edge if our cards are in the muck.

[Fatcatstu]

We do seem very glass half empty.

We can"t really put in much and then fold.

I disagree. I will put in chips when I think I am winning, if I think I am losing then I will fold (hopefully). In the case you describe then I would likely check call flop and turn and then, yes, fold river. I have lost some chips, oh dear. That is the worst case scenario though.

There will be lots of lovely scenarios where I can check call down, the river goes check check and we win. Lots of scenarios where the flop is checked round, and we get two streets of value from the station on the turn and river.  Lots of scenarios where we can make make neatly disguised flushes, two pairs, straights etc.

I watched a video you made playing like a lunatic on the cash table. Yes this is different but I know your not scared of playing through the streets, even more so when we have a solid read that a bad player is in the pot and we will have position on him. I think your underestimating how much of an edge you have post flop, we can"t exploit that edge if our cards are in the muck.

Im going to agree with Rodders here.

No need to get yourself in spots you dont need to in these. Flop big and bet them to death. No need to get fancy, people play these tournaments all arse about face. They play mental early doors and nit up later. Preserve your chips to the later stages and then take full advantage when they dont understand shove/call ranges. Dont make it more difficult than you need to.

[pokerpops]

We do seem very glass half empty.

We can"t really put in much and then fold.

I disagree. I will put in chips when I think I am winning, if I think I am losing then I will fold (hopefully). In the case you describe then I would likely check call flop and turn and then, yes, fold river. I have lost some chips, oh dear. That is the worst case scenario though.

There will be lots of lovely scenarios where I can check call down, the river goes check check and we win. Lots of scenarios where the flop is checked round, and we get two streets of value from the station on the turn and river.  Lots of scenarios where we can make make neatly disguised flushes, two pairs, straights etc.

I watched a video you made playing like a lunatic on the cash table. Yes this is different but I know your not scared of playing through the streets, even more so when we have a solid read that a bad player is in the pot and we will have position on him. I think your underestimating how much of an edge you have post flop, we can"t exploit that edge if our cards are in the muck.

Im going to agree with Rodders here.

No need to get yourself in spots you dont need to in these. Flop big and bet them to death. No need to get fancy, people play these tournaments all **** about face. They play mental early doors and nit up later. Preserve your chips to the later stages and then take full advantage when they dont understand shove/call ranges. Dont make it more difficult than you need to.

When did you get all technical? xxx

[AAroddersAA]

OK how much of the decision is based around the fish being in the pot. If we know that when we hit the Ace to top pair he is calling us down very light then I suppose it is OK. We need to be pretty certain of our read though.

I am really not sure there will be lot"s of scebarios where you can check/call down and it goes check/check there might be but I don"t think you gain a massive amount of chips here. There are not lots of scenarios where you make a monster though. A flush draw will get complex to play OOP against the OR, you need a perfect flop for a straight and the two pair happens very rarely. Also the fish folds if they have nothing anyway a lot of the time. When all is said and done what we are doing is playing a marginal hand out of position which can never be good.

Don"t know I could be completely wrong here but I am fairly confident I am not. We are creating a complex situation we don"t need too which will hurt us more often than it helps us (I do this far too much). I am not a fan of waiting for better spots but this might be one time to do it.

Playing down the streets here is totally different to playing the streets in a cash game. Some of what I do in a cash game would never enter my head in one of these. These games are just not that complex. Just push and call the right ranges and you win (eventually). Remember it is better to be in two tournaments with 1500 in chips each than one with 3000 chips. I don"t think we win enough here to compensate for what we lose (even if it is more).

Good discussion though, don"t think there is a way to resolve it unfortunately but it does go to show there is more than one way of playing the game and both can be successful.

Anybody else any ideas?

[pokerpops]

Call pre
fold flop

or,

call pre
raise flop
bet turn
jam river

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