APAT UK Team Championship 2014 - Discussion Thread

[Paulie_D]

See, I think soft play is ok, I won"t be playing massive hands against action from a team mate, but I will also not be chip dumping as I think that is wrong.

There should be some space left in this tourny for the team whose players play best to win, not just the ones who can carry dead weight for longest.

Saved me the trouble of typing the same

[AAroddersAA]

All well and good but once one team calls the floor you then run the risk of tit-for-tat situations...the floor will have an extremely busy night.

I would hope we"re all more grownup than that.

The point I"m making is that in a team event format, soft play and chip dumping is inevitable.  Ultimately the team situation is more important than any individual glory.

Just because it"s inevitable, doesn"t make it right.  It"s a honour thing and I"d like to think we"ll all play with honour.

So imagine a situation where the title is close to being decided, and a team has two players left in, and are on the verge of victory. One is huge chip leader and bullying the table, but the other is short-stacked and on the same table. The big stack opens for 2x as he has done for the past ten hands in a row.... his short stacked team mate then shoves for 4x and it folds back round to the original raiser. Clearly, in poker terms he has to call - folding is not an option.......  If he calls, he MIGHT lose the hand and double his team-mate up, but he might also win/suckout and bust his team-mate, and hand the title to another team.  Therefore, in the team context, folding is absolutely correct - but in poker terms, this would be soft play.

I hate this debate - it"s been going on forever. If we are to continue with "TEAM POKER", surely we just have to bite the bullet and recognise that usual poker rules don"t apply when it comes to chip dumping, soft play, etc.  It"s either an Individual tournament or it"s a Team tournament - the rules don"t necessarily fit both formats.

For me, soft play and chip passing should be an integral part of Team Poker, and it"s up to the other teams to see it happening and to take advantage. Like all poker, it"s about adjusting to varying dynamics...... Team Poker could become a really exciting concept if we were to embrace it fully, rather than trying to apply rules that don"t fit the concept.

I agree with this post but the rules are the rules. I thought this one was settled actually and APAT had said it is not allowed. It us a shame because it would improve the event but it is banned.

If this (paragraph 1) happens in Stoke there should be a severe penalty (player DQ as it is cheating).  That is the rule and it should be applied otherwise it just becomes even more confusing.

[LombBomb]

All well and good but once one team calls the floor you then run the risk of tit-for-tat situations...the floor will have an extremely busy night.

I would hope we"re all more grownup than that.

The point I"m making is that in a team event format, soft play and chip dumping is inevitable.  Ultimately the team situation is more important than any individual glory.

Just because it"s inevitable, doesn"t make it right.  It"s a honour thing and I"d like to think we"ll all play with honour.

So imagine a situation where the title is close to being decided, and a team has two players left in, and are on the verge of victory. One is huge chip leader and bullying the table, but the other is short-stacked and on the same table. The big stack opens for 2x as he has done for the past ten hands in a row.... his short stacked team mate then shoves for 4x and it folds back round to the original raiser. Clearly, in poker terms he has to call - folding is not an option.......  If he calls, he MIGHT lose the hand and double his team-mate up, but he might also win/suckout and bust his team-mate, and hand the title to another team.  Therefore, in the team context, folding is absolutely correct - but in poker terms, this would be soft play.

I hate this debate - it"s been going on forever. If we are to continue with "TEAM POKER", surely we just have to bite the bullet and recognise that usual poker rules don"t apply when it comes to chip dumping, soft play, etc.  It"s either an Individual tournament or it"s a Team tournament - the rules don"t necessarily fit both formats.

For me, soft play and chip passing should be an integral part of Team Poker, and it"s up to the other teams to see it happening and to take advantage. Like all poker, it"s about adjusting to varying dynamics...... Team Poker could become a really exciting concept if we were to embrace it fully, rather than trying to apply rules that don"t fit the concept.

I couldn"t agree more with this.  In a recent Online team championship a team was disqualified for perceived chip dumping then subsequently re-instated.  I"m highlighting that not as a slight against that team, but more to emphasise the point that these team formats don"t follow "normal" poker logic, and in trying to apply "rules" regarding chip passing/dumping you open a huge can of worms IMO.

In any case it"s a 240 player MTT so instances of team-mates being on the same table are going to be rare.

[MintTrav]

I hate this debate - it"s been going on forever. If we are to continue with "TEAM POKER", surely we just have to bite the bullet and recognise that usual poker rules don"t apply when it comes to chip dumping, soft play, etc.  It"s either an Individual tournament or it"s a Team tournament - the rules don"t necessarily fit both formats.

For me, soft play and chip passing should be an integral part of Team Poker, and it"s up to the other teams to see it happening and to take advantage. Like all poker, it"s about adjusting to varying dynamics...... Team Poker could become a really exciting concept if we were to embrace it fully, rather than trying to apply rules that don"t fit the concept.

Totally agree.

[AMRN]

In any case it"s a 240 player MTT so instances of team-mates being on the same table are going to be rare.

Correct in the early stages when the tourney is deep, and raise/folding for team advantage is less obvious..... but when it gets to the business end, team players sharing tables is going to happen when stacks are shallower and raise/folds become very obvious, and at a critical time.

[Paulie_D]

I thought this one was settled actually and APAT had said it is not allowed. It us a shame because it would improve the event but it is banned.

If this (paragraph 1) happens in Stoke there should be a severe penalty (player DQ as it is cheating).  That is the rule and it should be applied otherwise it just becomes even more confusing.

APAT did and so that is the rule and, I would hope, it will be applied in the unlikely event that it actually happens.



I, for one, think we should have a proper Team event.

Soft play and all other team tactics allowed including physical chip passing between hands and in-play hand discussions.

Team prizes only with no individual prizes to cut out the individual element.

Could be a hoot!

[AMRN]

Agree Paulie...  thought this for some time. APAT are very good at being innovative - I challenge APAT to support a Team Event where soft play, chip passing/dumping, etc are all allowable and expected, and where the team that performs best as a team is the winner.

[Sugar_Free]

For me, soft play and chip passing should be an integral part of Team Poker, and it"s up to the other teams to see it happening and to take advantage. Like all poker, it"s about adjusting to varying dynamics

100% this

[MintTrav]

If this (paragraph 1) happens in Stoke there should be a severe penalty (player DQ as it is cheating).  That is the rule and it should be applied otherwise it just becomes even more confusing.

APAT did and so that is the rule and, I would hope, it will be applied in the unlikely event that it actually happens.

I can predict two things. Chips will be passed. No-one will be disqualified. You want to start a riot? You guys better learn to adapt to the situation.

[AAroddersAA]

I thought this one was settled actually and APAT had said it is not allowed. It us a shame because it would improve the event but it is banned.

If this (paragraph 1) happens in Stoke there should be a severe penalty (player DQ as it is cheating).  That is the rule and it should be applied otherwise it just becomes even more confusing.

APAT did and so that is the rule and, I would hope, it will be applied in the unlikely event that it actually happens.



I, for one, think we should have a proper Team event.

Soft play and all other team tactics allowed including physical chip passing between hands and in-play hand discussions.

Team prizes only with no individual prizes to cut out the individual element.

Could be a hoot!

LIKE - Side event somewhere maybe?

[Sugar_Free]

I thought this one was settled actually and APAT had said it is not allowed. It us a shame because it would improve the event but it is banned.

If this (paragraph 1) happens in Stoke there should be a severe penalty (player DQ as it is cheating).  That is the rule and it should be applied otherwise it just becomes even more confusing.

APAT did and so that is the rule and, I would hope, it will be applied in the unlikely event that it actually happens.

Without having every mucked hand turned over for the table"s perusal and subsequent vote, who is to say that a hand shouldn"t be mucked?

Do we then get to the stage where after a team mate folds to a large post flop bet, we then need to check his hand to see if he really should have been calling pre?

[Paulie_D]

Without having every mucked hand turned over for the table"s perusal and subsequent vote, who is to say that a hand shouldn"t be mucked?

Do we then get to the stage where after a team mate folds to a large post flop bet, we then need to check his hand to see if he really should have been calling pre?

If it"s the rule (and it is) then only if the floor is called.

If the floor isn"t called...leave it and move on.

I predict there will NOT be a lot of floor calls.....we"re better than that.

As I recall, the only reason why "team play" in general was ruled out of bounds was because there was an individual prize to be won and players didn"t want any "team play" to affect that part of the competition.

While there are individual prizes &/or added value I think the rule against it should stay in place and be enforced when asked.

Otherwise, a full team prize with all "team play" options in place.

Talk to IrishTom....I think this would be a fun change for S8.

[s4ooter]

Just win it with 30 or so left like the last few seasons. Easy then!!

[IrishTom]

Guys, we"ve stated the rules that will be in place for Stoke - and as Paulie says, this is correct because we have an "individual prize" as part of the event (from my perspective anyway) - collusion, chip dumping and soft play can/will affect this and therefore anyone breaking the rules will be punished as stated - to be determined by the Venue/APAT Host.

I will look to discuss the subject further with Des/Matt post-Stoke where I will put forward the "argument" to allow "team play - within reason" (to be determined) if we have a team event from Season 8 onwards that does not include individual prizes.

[AMRN]

Guys, we"ve stated the rules that will be in place for Stoke - and as Paulie says, this is correct because we have an "individual prize" as part of the event (from my perspective anyway) - collusion, chip dumping and soft play can/will affect this and therefore anyone breaking the rules will be punished as stated - to be determined by the Venue/APAT Host.

It"s actually not possible to identify the majority of times when this rule is broken..... if someone raises with AA, and gets a caller, then their team mate shoves, and they then fold their AA - how will anyone ever know that soft play has occurred?  So, whilst having a rule is great, actually enforcing it is impossible.