APAT UK Team Championship 2014 - Discussion Thread

[Paulie_D]

Guys, we"ve stated the rules that will be in place for Stoke - and as Paulie says, this is correct because we have an "individual prize" as part of the event (from my perspective anyway) - collusion, chip dumping and soft play can/will affect this and therefore anyone breaking the rules will be punished as stated - to be determined by the Venue/APAT Host.

It"s actually not possible to identify the majority of times when this rule is broken..... if someone raises with AA, and gets a caller, then their team mate shoves, and they then fold their AA - how will anyone ever know that soft play has occurred?  So, whilst having a rule is great, actually enforcing it is impossible.

This is why it"s acknowledges that "soft play" of that nature can (and probably will) happen but chip dumping and other team tactics such as team players joining together to raise players out of a pot (I think it"s called rip-sawing") are not allowed.

[AMRN]

Guys, we"ve stated the rules that will be in place for Stoke - and as Paulie says, this is correct because we have an "individual prize" as part of the event (from my perspective anyway) - collusion, chip dumping and soft play can/will affect this and therefore anyone breaking the rules will be punished as stated - to be determined by the Venue/APAT Host.

It"s actually not possible to identify the majority of times when this rule is broken..... if someone raises with AA, and gets a caller, then their team mate shoves, and they then fold their AA - how will anyone ever know that soft play has occurred?  So, whilst having a rule is great, actually enforcing it is impossible.

This is why it"s acknowledges that "soft play" of that nature can (and probably will) happen but chip dumping and other team tactics such as team players joining together to raise players out of a pot (I think it"s called rip-sawing") are not allowed.

the point is though, that it often cannot be proven. Therefore, any player/team that is punished for breaking such a rule has a right to feel aggrieved given that it"s a cast iron certainty that the rule will have been broken elsewhere by other players during the tourney.  If a rule cannot be 100% applied to all hands, and policed accordingly, it is not a good rule.

[Paulie_D]

I agree.

It"s a good rule though applied to the wrong event type.

[MintTrav]

I challenge APAT to support a Team Event where soft play, chip passing/dumping, etc are all allowable and expected, and where the team that performs best as a team is the winner.

The main voices advocating floors to be called and disqualifications, namely Paulie, Rodders and (to some extent) Stu, have all said that they like the idea of chip-passing in team events but are opposed to it at Stoke mainly just because it is against the rules of the event.

APAT can resolve this whole silly (and boring) debate that arises every time there is a team competition by just announcing that chip-passing/dumping is absolutely fine and expected; encouraged in fact. This has become a required skill in team events and some people have become very good at it. It is what will happen anyway, so APAT could avoid the hypocrisy that is currently required from players and organisers by saying that anything goes with regard to how people bet with their chips. There is nothing to stop other teams from countering team play with strategies of their own. This is what takes team events to a level not found in individual tournaments.

Here"s to a great event!

[Des]

I challenge APAT to support a Team Event where soft play, chip passing/dumping, etc are all allowable and expected, and where the team that performs best as a team is the winner.

The main voices advocating floors to be called and disqualifications, namely Paulie, Rodders and (to some extent) Stu, have all said that they like the idea of chip-passing in team events but are opposed to it at Stoke mainly just because it is against the rules of the event.

APAT can resolve this whole silly (and boring) debate that arises every time there is a team competition by just announcing that chip-passing/dumping is absolutely fine and expected; encouraged in fact. This has become a required skill in team events and some people have become very good at it. It is what will happen anyway, so APAT could avoid the hypocrisy that is currently required from players and organisers by saying that anything goes with regard to how people bet with their chips. There is nothing to stop other teams from countering team play with strategies of their own. This is what takes team events to a level not found in individual tournaments.

Here"s to a great event!

Some very good points made over the past few pages of this thread.  I"m a fan of opening up the event in the way suggested, however I don"t think we should do that when there is an individual prize at stake.  So that can be looked at for S8 and I"m sure we can take forward a very exciting concept.

In the interim, let"s all remember that this event has been running in this format for several years now, with lots of highly competitive players and to my knowledge, we"ve never had a single issue relating to abuse of the rules. 

When we get down to the business end, if chip dumping appears to be taking place we can easily ask to see the folding player"s cards pre muck.  With two or three tables left, that would be very easy to enforce.  But we"ve not had to do it previously and if the event is played in the spirit that it has always been played in previously, then we won"t have to do it in Stoke either.

[Paulie_D]

I challenge APAT to support a Team Event where soft play, chip passing/dumping, etc are all allowable and expected, and where the team that performs best as a team is the winner.

The main voices advocating floors to be called and disqualifications, namely Paulie, Rodders and (to some extent) Stu, have all said that they like the idea of chip-passing in team events but are opposed to it at Stoke mainly just because it is against the rules of the event.

Not quite...I"m in favour of a completely team event with no individual element/prize to be affected by "team play".

I"m not against "team play" because there is a rule against it.

I"m against it where there is an an individual element involved (as it is at Stoke) that could be affected by "team play".

Here"s to a great event!

Absolutely.

[TheSnapper]

As I recall, the only reason why "team play" in general was ruled out of bounds was because there was an individual prize to be won and players didn"t want any "team play" to affect that part of the competition.

That is the wrong way round imo, individual play should not be detrimental to the Team effort.

Is it a team event with an added individual prize or vice versa?

[AMRN]

As I recall, the only reason why "team play" in general was ruled out of bounds was because there was an individual prize to be won and players didn"t want any "team play" to affect that part of the competition.

That is the wrong way round imo, individual play should not be detrimental to the Team effort.

Is it a team event with an added individual prize or vice versa?

^^^^^ Wot he said!!

It"s a Team Championship ffs.

[Fatcatstu]

I think we have to accept that for this year, it is what it is and move on.

Des and Tom have both said they like the idea and will consider it for NEXT year, and that is as good as they can do this close to the event

[Paulie_D]

I think we have to accept that for this year, it is what it is and move on.

Des and Tom have both said they like the idea and will consider it for NEXT year, and that is as good as they can do this close to the event

+1

[jayteejack]

I think we have to accept that for this year, it is what it is and move on.

Des and Tom have both said they like the idea and will consider it for NEXT year, and that is as good as they can do this close to the event

+1

Lol brownie point for paulie and stu .
As two of my team mates have commented above this is a team event and I will be doing my best to achieve the best possible team result. Hopefully I wont be in the situation where I raise and my team mate shoves forcing me to fold just to ladder...

[Delboy]

Tom, If you are staying at the Quality, Can you leave the blonde teams t shirts at the reception for me to pick up Friday on behalf of Asa please?. Saves you taking them to the casino and me carrying them back again.

Thanks in advance

Sure no problem.

Thanks Tom

[mouth146]

Hello all

I will be heading up the "Genting Southport" team at Stoke and look forward to seeing you all.

For anyone who doesn"t know me, bring earphones.

My team are as follows:

Caroline Cove

Andrea Marshall

Mark McVey

Igor Puskarskis

John Leonard

Craig Turner

James Aughton

Kevin Warrilow

[fandango]

Hello all

I will be heading up the "Genting Southport" team at Stoke and look forward to seeing you all.

For anyone who doesn"t know me, bring earphones.

My team are as follows:

Caroline Cove

Andrea Marshall

Mark McVey

Igor Puskarskis

John Leonard

Craig Turner

James Aughton

Kevin Warrilow

Any one with a spare cook book on how to cook slow roast lamb shank, Caroline would appreciate the loan  

[KarmaDope]

Hello all

I will be heading up the "Genting Southport" team at Stoke and look forward to seeing you all.

For anyone who doesn"t know me, bring earphones.

My team are as follows:

Caroline Cove

Andrea Marshall

Mark McVey

Igor Puskarskis

John Leonard

Craig Turner

James Aughton

Kevin Warrilow

Any one with a spare cook book on how to cook slow roast lamb shank, Caroline would appreciate the loan  

Joobs is supposedly coming - Caroline can just ask her