Weird spot at Zoom

[AAroddersAA]

Just for the purposes of this post assume no info other than population tendencies of this game do we call or fold. Anybody think it is better to just shove pre? What do you think he has?

PokerStars Zoom Hand #109418474068:  Hold'em No Limit ($0.10/$0.25) - 2014/01/01 18:27:17 WET [2014/01/01 13:27:17 ET]
Table "Hydra" 6-max Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: NB Huang ($25 in chips)
Seat 2: gioveangelo ($22.93 in chips)
Seat 3: alvin Golf ($22.77 in chips)
Seat 4: T1meI{eepeR ($48.45 in chips)
Seat 5: 33teetwo33 ($25 in chips)
Seat 6: donkthegreek ($27.95 in chips)
gioveangelo: posts small blind $0.10
alvin Golf: posts big blind $0.25
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to 33teetwo33 [ ]
T1meI{eepeR: folds
33teetwo33: raises $0.50 to $0.75
donkthegreek: folds
NB Huang: folds
gioveangelo: raises $0.50 to $1.25
alvin Golf: folds
33teetwo33: raises $1.75 to $3
gioveangelo: raises $1.75 to $4.75
33teetwo33: calls $1.75
*** FLOP *** [ As]
gioveangelo: bets $18.18 and is all-in

[Fatcatstu]

He either has AA or nothing here i think. I just shrug and fold and move on here i think.

[AMRN]

Can"t see a reason to call here. Either an A, a set, or a flush draw..........  but KK doesn"t play great against that range.

What would he do that with that KK crushes?  We might be ahead of a flush draw, but we"re not crushing anything.

Simple fold - next hand please.

[deanp27]

probably fold

in zoom I quite like flatting these 3bets in position and playing the streets as 4/5bet wars rarely happen without significant history or the opponent having AA/KK.

Might change my mind depending on villains location though. If he is Russian I might stick it in pre.

[TheSnapper]

You really have to be getting ai preflop, I mean what exactly is your range for getting it in here?

[AAroddersAA]

You really have to be getting ai preflop, I mean what exactly is your range for getting it in here?

Let me give that point a better reply

Assuming a random (not a reg or somebody I know to be a fish) - I would disagree here. We do not need to get it in pre with KK at zoom even though it is +EV to do so it is not the most profitable play against a random player.

My range is AA and sometimes KK, nothing else. Not QQ and not AK with both of those hands I am quite comfortable calling a 3-bet and playing a flop, again this assumes a random I will sometimes play different if I know the player, but not often tbh. This spot is a bit screwed up to be honest, as the guy was not a random but my question was what do you do against a random as I was questioning it myself. What would I have done in a vacuum and what should I do?

Ask yourself how often you see people 4-bet QQ or AK in either $10 or $25 Zoom. AK does sometimes get 4-bet but it is often a shove or a big please go away 4bet. QQ people seem to like to call 3-bets and play flops, sigh who taught everybody to play poker. If I shove in this spot I do let him potentially get away from QQ, JJ or AK whereas I can often stack these hands on the flop (not AK so much but the other two certainly and I still get more from AK).

So my thought pattern is given the way he has played preflop can he really have AK? He can do but his 4-bet would normally be bigger so it is less likely. Can he have QQ well yes he can do again does not feel likely if I am honest. He certainly can have AA. I can pretty much set mine here though. Preflop I thought he had aces at least half the time if I am honest.

I was actually going to fold the flop until he shoved, there are so few aces in his range and why would a set be shoving here. It just does not add up. If he makes a standard bet of about $6 into the pot of about $9 I insta fold btw.

But given the way he had played it are we ahead often enough to call?

fwiw - the answer is probably no and it is a fold just not as clear as it first looks.

[TheSnapper]

You really have to be getting ai preflop, I mean what exactly is your range for getting it in here?

Let me give that point a better reply

Assuming a random (not a reg or somebody I know to be a fish) - I would disagree here. We do not need to get it in pre with KK at zoom even though it is +EV to do so it is not the most profitable play against a random player.

My range is AA and sometimes KK, nothing else. Not QQ and not AK with both of those hands I am quite comfortable calling a 3-bet and playing a flop, again this assumes a random I will sometimes play different if I know the player, but not often tbh. This spot is a bit screwed up to be honest, as the guy was not a random but my question was what do you do against a random as I was questioning it myself. What would I have done in a vacuum and what should I do?

Ask yourself how often you see people 4-bet QQ or AK in either $10 or $25 Zoom. AK does sometimes get 4-bet but it is often a shove or a big please go away 4bet. QQ people seem to like to call 3-bets and play flops, sigh who taught everybody to play poker. If I shove in this spot I do let him potentially get away from QQ, JJ or AK whereas I can often stack these hands on the flop (not AK so much but the other two certainly and I still get more from AK).

So my thought pattern is given the way he has played preflop can he really have AK? He can do but his 4-bet would normally be bigger so it is less likely. Can he have QQ well yes he can do again does not feel likely if I am honest. He certainly can have AA. I can pretty much set mine here though. Preflop I thought he had aces at least half the time if I am honest.

I was actually going to fold the flop until he shoved, there are so few aces in his range and why would a set be shoving here. It just does not add up. If he makes a standard bet of about $6 into the pot of about $9 I insta fold btw.

But given the way he had played it are we ahead often enough to call?

fwiw - the answer is probably no and it is a fold just not as clear as it first looks.

I have zero experience @ zoom 25 nl but this is so f@#ked up, seems totally wrong to me tbh.

Your range for preflop ai is AA and occasionally KK, that being the case why 4b KK in this spot?

So if folk are folding AK & QQ-, we should have a massive 4b 5b bluffing range, I mean if our getting in preflop range is almost exclusively AA, how can we possibly get any action?

[TheSnapper]

We have a villain who....

• Has a less than full stack


• 3b"s oop by the absolute minimum


• 4b"s oop by the absolute minimum


• Open jams flop for a 2x psb

We really can"t get it in preflop with KK versus this player

[AAroddersAA]

We have a villain who....

• Has a less than full stack


• 3b"s oop by the absolute minimum


• 4b"s oop by the absolute minimum


• Open jams flop for a 2x psb

We really can"t get it in preflop with KK versus this player

I think it is fine to 4-bet with KK as you do get called by worse. I just find it rare you get raised by worse, your points about the player are also good ones. Can we get it in profitably 100% yes. He actually had 99 btw which is just weird but I think he might well have called if I had shoved anyway. So maybe a shove is more +EV with KK. I definitely still prefer the flat with a hand like AK or QQ though, what do you think?

Your other point, should we have a wide 4-betting range in this game? Absolutely, the trend in zoom at the moment seems to be that people love to 3-bet light but fold to too many 4-bets, especially in button Vs Blind and Blind vs Blind spots. 4-betting light is very profitable at the moment, if you raise the button and get 3-bet it"s possible it should be default against some players. Some of the regs do it too so against them you can actually 5-bet light. It"s all just far too confusing, can"t we just go back to the days when a 3-bet meant AA?

Also how are we getting any action if we have such a narrow range to get it in there? They just don"t know that we do. People still call too much, they just don"t raise enough.

[TheSnapper]

I think it is fine to 4-bet with KK as you do get called by worse. I just find it rare you get raised by worse, your points about the player are also good ones. Can we get it in profitably 100% yes. He actually had 99 btw which is just weird but I think he might well have called if I had shoved anyway. So maybe a shove is more +EV with KK. I definitely still prefer the flat with a hand like AK or QQ though, what do you think?

From my experience, AK as an ai preflop hand is never in bad shape versus even the tightest of ranges, there are certain uber tight villains where I snap fold but they are a rare exception. It does carry a lot of variance though so its ok to not embrace that if you tilt easily or play on a tight bankroll.

The big benefit though, if you play enough volume, is that our wider range encourages action from TT-QQ and sometimes worse. Now our entire "all-in pre range" does really well even though we may break even at best with AK.

Your other point, should we have a wide 4-betting range in this game? Absolutely, the trend in zoom at the moment seems to be that people love to 3-bet light but fold to too many 4-bets, especially in button Vs Blind and Blind vs Blind spots. 4-betting light is very profitable at the moment, if you raise the button and get 3-bet it"s possible it should be default against some players. Some of the regs do it too so against them you can actually 5-bet light. It"s all just far too confusing, can"t we just go back to the days when a 3-bet meant AA?

If we are 3b to say 9 bb"s, because we likely face a polarised 3b range our 4b doesn"t need to be large to succeed. Assuming we have position (better for us but not essential) we can 4b to 18 - 20 bb"s without affecting our success rate.

Also how are we getting any action if we have such a narrow range to get it in there? They just don"t know that we do. People still call too much, they just don"t raise enough.

Fair point but some will notice and increasingly so as you move up or play more hands versus the regs.

[George2Loose]

U have 100 bigs and kings. That wall of text is pretty pointless. Get it in pre

[mousebob]

Sense at last.

[TheSnapper]

Sense at last.

you"re either a starstruck fanboy or you haven"t read the entire thread