APAT UK Team Championship Online Event - Sunday 23.2.14 @8pm.

[fandango]

Just a word on the structure of the tourney, as I have seen it mentioned throughout this thread.  It may seem obvious for me to say that the structure was fine (because we did so well), but IMHO, any stack larger than 5k would be excessive.  5k represents a 250bb starting stack, which is more than enough for any online tourney with a 10min clock - in fact it would be considered as a superstack in most online tournies with the standard pre-set blind levels.  I always stand by the fact that increasing chip stacks will not have that much of an effect on the amount of play in a tournament, its more about getting the structure right.  Without looking at it, I"m a bit stuck for suggestions at present - although I"m certainly willing to come back with some ideas, but for me a 5k start stack and no earlier than a 7.30pm start should be fine - a max of 5 hours of play is surely enough for most people, particularly those that have to get up for work the next morning.  I played the Hendon Mob league for a few seasons on Ipoker and their start stack was 1500 chips on the same clock, it still worked well, but was a bit too turbo, if they were offered 5k I think they may have thought you were having a bubble bath!  Seriously though there is more than enough play in that structure, so personally I would be tempted to leave it as it is and see how things go, it can always be reviewed at a later date.

I think you are right about a structure for a weekly league, but we are talking about main event medal games which should be deeper. If finishing time is an issue then maybe schedule them for non-school nights.

Ok, fair point well made, but how deep do you want to go?  I still think 7.5k is excessive (its almost 400bbs) and it creates the style of poker that everyone hates these days, 3bet, 4 bet, 5bet pre-flop with air....just cause you can and then villan flops his straight with 5 3 off suit vs ur AA and you"re spewing.  Personally I"d like to get back to proper poker whether it be live or online, these super dooper monster stacks are killing the game!  If you really want to go a bit deeper why not try to replicate the current live structure (15k with 25/50 starting blinds = 300bb starting stack) so on that basis, maybe a 6k start stack with blind levels starting at 10/20 with a 7.30pm latest start time, surely that should be more than enough - just my opinion obviously!

Just a quick question... what is your definition of "proper poker"? I personally want some room to have some fun As i am sure most people who were on my table will tell you, I was playing somewhat... creatively, but that is a game I prefer to play, and i would rather do that than just sit and wait to get JJ v KK v AA as happened in this one :p ( i raise folded to the Pilgrims 4 bet shove, Im such a nit)

People arent going to fold much in these APAT games no matter what the structure is, and if we are paying £20, I would prefer a few more chips in play personally, as it got down to a 15/20bb avg rather quickly from memory?

VWD to all who got cash/points/medals btw

In answer to your question, what is my definition of "proper poker" well first of all it would involve doing away with monster stacks and pushing the concept that "play" and "value for your £" in a tournament (live or online) is dictated by the structure and not the amount of chips in play.  You could have a 500bb starting stack, but if the structure isn"t right, then it means nothing.

There was a discussion on another forum I post on regarding the structure/start stacks in the GUKPT side events which basically centred around the fact that for your £100 buy in, you only received a 7500 starting stack.  Now on the surface this may seem poor value for money (especially in comparison to some of the stack sizes you get in other similar value comps), but if you looked beyond that and looked at the full structure of the comp and the fact that you were still starting with a very healthy 150bbs and at no point did the average stack fall under 30bbs - that"s where you find your value for money.  The problem lies in players inability to adjust their game in accordance to stack size and structure, even when their stack is relatively shallow, they still want to come and play this "creative" style of poker, but then feel disappointed when it doesn"t work out for them and blame the fact that "it was only a 7500 starting stack".  

I fully agree that you should have licence to be creative in a poker tournament and I don"t endorse "nitiness" by any means, but if you can"t be creative with a 250bb starting stack, then I"m a little bereft of ideas I"m afraid. 

During this tourney the other night I must have had AA at least 7 times, KK twice, QQ 4 times (in all honesty I"ve never had a run of cards like it) and what did I win my biggest pot with?; 75suited, calling a raise from the SB in a multi-way pot, this was in the early levels, so I guess you can count that as being creative. 

Proper poker in my eyes is all about outwitting your opponent, maybe being more selective than creative and playing position - whatever happened to that(??) and utilising my stack size in accordance with the structure.  Monster stacks only encourage loose play, particularly in the early levels and if people want to try to play two card chicken, then that"s entirely up to them, but I much prefer to leave them to it and pick my spots more carefully to maximise my gain to allow me to go deeper in the tournament. 

When all"s said and done, if we all played the same way it wouldn"t be a game worth playing and as with most games/sports people will always have their opinions on what"s right and wrong and they are of course entitled to them.  Please don"t get me wrong, I"m not trying to dictate to anyone, its just something I have a strong opinion on, I may be reasonably young in age, but I"ve been playing the game for quite some time and I guess in that respect maybe I"m a little bit old school.  I also run tournaments, so I guess I always consider the structure over the stack size, but then that"s just me!  Discussions like these though are what keeps me interested in the game - it also helps if I"m winning a bit along the way too, lol!

Lee B.

^^^^^ good post^^^^^

Can also confirm he was a card rack!!

Also i believe it was 7/4 not 7/5 which you won your big pot with but i may be mistaken lol

[ian.ski309]

Also i believe it was 7/4 not 7/5 which you won your big pot with but i may be mistaken lol

It was 7h4h... and as for "reasonably young in age" - that"s a bluff too  

[ShoveOnMe]

[quote auus yesthor=ian.ski309 link=topic=15109.msg228020#msg228020 date=1393404703]

Also i believe it was 7/4 not 7/5 which you won your big pot with but i may be misdate taken lol

It was 7h4h... and as for "reasonably young in age" - that"s a bluff too  
[/quote]

My bad, yes it was 74hh, crikey, maybe I"m more "creative" than I thought!  As for me bluffing about being "reasonably young in age" Mr Szerlowski...... Please tell me which side of 40 you"d rather be or in your case which side of......ooooooh dare I say it? Ha ha

[Fatcatstu]

Just a word on the structure of the tourney, as I have seen it mentioned throughout this thread.  It may seem obvious for me to say that the structure was fine (because we did so well), but IMHO, any stack larger than 5k would be excessive.  5k represents a 250bb starting stack, which is more than enough for any online tourney with a 10min clock - in fact it would be considered as a superstack in most online tournies with the standard pre-set blind levels.  I always stand by the fact that increasing chip stacks will not have that much of an effect on the amount of play in a tournament, its more about getting the structure right.  Without looking at it, I"m a bit stuck for suggestions at present - although I"m certainly willing to come back with some ideas, but for me a 5k start stack and no earlier than a 7.30pm start should be fine - a max of 5 hours of play is surely enough for most people, particularly those that have to get up for work the next morning.  I played the Hendon Mob league for a few seasons on Ipoker and their start stack was 1500 chips on the same clock, it still worked well, but was a bit too turbo, if they were offered 5k I think they may have thought you were having a bubble bath!  Seriously though there is more than enough play in that structure, so personally I would be tempted to leave it as it is and see how things go, it can always be reviewed at a later date.

I think you are right about a structure for a weekly league, but we are talking about main event medal games which should be deeper. If finishing time is an issue then maybe schedule them for non-school nights.

Ok, fair point well made, but how deep do you want to go?  I still think 7.5k is excessive (its almost 400bbs) and it creates the style of poker that everyone hates these days, 3bet, 4 bet, 5bet pre-flop with air....just cause you can and then villan flops his straight with 5 3 off suit vs ur AA and you"re spewing.  Personally I"d like to get back to proper poker whether it be live or online, these super dooper monster stacks are killing the game!  If you really want to go a bit deeper why not try to replicate the current live structure (15k with 25/50 starting blinds = 300bb starting stack) so on that basis, maybe a 6k start stack with blind levels starting at 10/20 with a 7.30pm latest start time, surely that should be more than enough - just my opinion obviously!

Just a quick question... what is your definition of "proper poker"? I personally want some room to have some fun As i am sure most people who were on my table will tell you, I was playing somewhat... creatively, but that is a game I prefer to play, and i would rather do that than just sit and wait to get JJ v KK v AA as happened in this one :p ( i raise folded to the Pilgrims 4 bet shove, Im such a nit)

People arent going to fold much in these APAT games no matter what the structure is, and if we are paying £20, I would prefer a few more chips in play personally, as it got down to a 15/20bb avg rather quickly from memory?

VWD to all who got cash/points/medals btw

In answer to your question, what is my definition of "proper poker" well first of all it would involve doing away with monster stacks and pushing the concept that "play" and "value for your £" in a tournament (live or online) is dictated by the structure and not the amount of chips in play.  You could have a 500bb starting stack, but if the structure isn"t right, then it means nothing.

There was a discussion on another forum I post on regarding the structure/start stacks in the GUKPT side events which basically centred around the fact that for your £100 buy in, you only received a 7500 starting stack.  Now on the surface this may seem poor value for money (especially in comparison to some of the stack sizes you get in other similar value comps), but if you looked beyond that and looked at the full structure of the comp and the fact that you were still starting with a very healthy 150bbs and at no point did the average stack fall under 30bbs - that"s where you find your value for money.  The problem lies in players inability to adjust their game in accordance to stack size and structure, even when their stack is relatively shallow, they still want to come and play this "creative" style of poker, but then feel disappointed when it doesn"t work out for them and blame the fact that "it was only a 7500 starting stack".  

I fully agree that you should have licence to be creative in a poker tournament and I don"t endorse "nitiness" by any means, but if you can"t be creative with a 250bb starting stack, then I"m a little bereft of ideas I"m afraid. 

During this tourney the other night I must have had AA at least 7 times, KK twice, QQ 4 times (in all honesty I"ve never had a run of cards like it) and what did I win my biggest pot with?; 75suited, calling a raise from the SB in a multi-way pot, this was in the early levels, so I guess you can count that as being creative. 

Proper poker in my eyes is all about outwitting your opponent, maybe being more selective than creative and playing position - whatever happened to that(??) and utilising my stack size in accordance with the structure.  Monster stacks only encourage loose play, particularly in the early levels and if people want to try to play two card chicken, then that"s entirely up to them, but I much prefer to leave them to it and pick my spots more carefully to maximise my gain to allow me to go deeper in the tournament. 

When all"s said and done, if we all played the same way it wouldn"t be a game worth playing and as with most games/sports people will always have their opinions on what"s right and wrong and they are of course entitled to them.  Please don"t get me wrong, I"m not trying to dictate to anyone, its just something I have a strong opinion on, I may be reasonably young in age, but I"ve been playing the game for quite some time and I guess in that respect maybe I"m a little bit old school.  I also run tournaments, so I guess I always consider the structure over the stack size, but then that"s just me!  Discussions like these though are what keeps me interested in the game - it also helps if I"m winning a bit along the way too, lol!

Lee B.

^^^^^ good post^^^^^

Can also confirm he was a card rack!!

Also i believe it was 7/4 not 7/5 which you won your big pot with but i may be mistaken lol

+1 absolutely top class post sir. WP.