Pre flop decision - Opinions please

[Roscopiko]

POKERSTARS GAME #19439228577: TOURNAMENT #99190603, $10+$1 HOLD"EM NO LIMIT - LEVEL XXIII (6000/12000) - 2008/08/07 - 17:59:01 (ET)
Table "99190603 368" 9-max Seat #2 is the button
Seat 1: roscopiko (174844 in chips)
Seat 2: vinicharge (224043 in chips)
Seat 3: kick_butts6 (180463 in chips)
Seat 4: Harris1013 (200968 in chips)
Seat 5: franky bee42 (218164 in chips)
Seat 7: Bravro (183118 in chips)
Seat 8: joeshambles (380989 in chips)
Seat 9: goldgammon (60816 in chips)
roscopiko: posts the ante 1200
vinicharge: posts the ante 1200
kick_butts6: posts the ante 1200
Harris1013: posts the ante 1200
franky bee42: posts the ante 1200
Bravro: posts the ante 1200
joeshambles: posts the ante 1200
goldgammon: posts the ante 1200
kick_butts6: posts small blind 6000
Harris1013: posts big blind 12000
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to roscopiko [:as: ah]
franky bee42: folds
Bravro: folds
joeshambles: raises 24000 to 36000
goldgammon: folds

Down to the last 50 from 4000 of $10 MTT and been playing v tight due to being totally card dead and climbing the ladder. On this table only shown AA and KK in the last 30 hands both pushed when about 10 BB.

What is your action here?

[kinboshi]

Either re-raise all-in, or min-raise looking to shove on any flop (or call a re-re-raise).

[duke3016]

All in to the CL --- but thats just me, happy to take the 30k pot there and then, but also more than happy if he calls

[Swinebag]

given the blinds, has to be a shove. I"m assuming this is a 3000 starting stacker so you are below average chips (Y/N?) so need to double up here.

No read on the raiser?

Calling is more deceptive but given how much of your stack that uses, would arouse some suspicion and may not get any more money in the pot unless the raiser has a monster (in which case he"d call a pre flop shove) or flops a monster (in which case you are beat)

Min raise practically gives your hand away but compels the raiser to call so gets another bet in the pot.

Shove gets all your money in, obv, and the raiser is more likely to call with a wider range of hands pre flop

[Roscopiko]

given the blinds, has to be a shove. I"m assuming this is a 3000 starting stacker so you are below average chips (Y/N?) so need to double up here.

No read on the raiser?

Yes way behind the average but not short stacked.

Nothing on the raiser as he was moved on just a dozen or so hands previous.

[REvans84]

Standard shove imo.
Standard 3 bet consumes too many of your chips so you would be in on the flop anyway if called.
No point getting cute at this stage by calling. If he folds to your shove, you are still adding 25% to your stack.

[biffa85]

Reraise to 90k, only 54k more so at least should get that from him or even a rereraise. Shove any flop blind and hope for a call, a double through should put you in command of the table as CL, and give you the ammunition to pick up even more chips heading for the FT.

Shove is too much IMO that means he"d need to put in 142k more, which will enable him to get away from a lot of hands, you don"t get aces enough to settle for a mere 63k at this stage.

Yes occasionally he"ll crack you aces, but still no reason to play scared, go for the extra chips.

[Roscopiko]

POKERSTARS GAME #19439228577: TOURNAMENT #99190603, $10+$1 HOLD"EM NO LIMIT - LEVEL XXIII (6000/12000) - 2008/08/07 - 17:59:01 (ET)
Table "99190603 368" 9-max Seat #2 is the button
Seat 1: roscopiko (174844 in chips)
Seat 2: vinicharge (224043 in chips)
Seat 3: kick_butts6 (180463 in chips)
Seat 4: Harris1013 (200968 in chips)
Seat 5: franky bee42 (218164 in chips)
Seat 7: Bravro (183118 in chips)
Seat 8: joeshambles (380989 in chips)
Seat 9: goldgammon (60816 in chips)
roscopiko: posts the ante 1200
vinicharge: posts the ante 1200
kick_butts6: posts the ante 1200
Harris1013: posts the ante 1200
franky bee42: posts the ante 1200
Bravro: posts the ante 1200
joeshambles: posts the ante 1200
goldgammon: posts the ante 1200
kick_butts6: posts small blind 6000
Harris1013: posts big blind 12000
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to roscopiko [:as: qh]
franky bee42: folds
Bravro: folds
joeshambles: raises 24000 to 36000
goldgammon: folds

Down to the last 50 from 4000 of $10 MTT and been playing v tight due to being totally card dead and climbing the ladder. On this table only shown AA and KK in the last 30 hands both pushed when about 10 BB.

What is your action here?

Wow i really cocked that up. Not that bad I dont know what to do with aa.  Anyone want to comment on the hand I meant. Sorry!

[mal666]

push or fold either is ok. dont like much else with the stacks as they are.

[biffa85]

Still not keen on the push, too deeped stacked for that, but a raise is definately in order IMO, maybe stick with the original 90k raise and see what happens.

[mal666]

Still not keen on the push, too deeped stacked for that, but a raise is definately in order IMO, maybe stick with the original 90k raise and see what happens.

so you raise 55% of your stack then get moved in on. what next?
only if he has AA are u now not getting odds to call.the 90k raise acheives nothing it is essentially the same as pushing yourself you get called/raised by better hands or he folds.
if you have a decent line on his play i would consider flat calling with position to take it from him on the flop or later streets.

[biffa85]

a smaller raise is quite often scarier than the allin push.

If he"s holding medium pairs 6-9"s then might well slow him down a bit, if he"s holding small pairs then may well give up - if you push then he is probably calling your allin with both these sets of hands, and bigger pairs 10-a"s his money is all going in regardless of whether you push or smaller raise.

And I did say push blind on any flop, just give him a second chance to fold and will result in him folding some hands that could beat you by the river.

[ThinkerJE]

With AA, I think you must re raise.  If you min re raise you are putting 70k+ out of your 170k stack and announcing to the table your hand.  The rest will go in on the flop regardless so I would probably stick it all in pre flop and hope he has a lower pair or AK (the only hands he can call with).  With AQ I think you have enough chips to fold and that would be my decision.  You don"t want a call as you will be racing at best and most probably dominated.  You cannot flat call and the move all in is aggressive and may pick up the pot there and then, but it is too risky at this stage for me, and I would wait for a better spot.

[Roscopiko]

Well, I went with the push here and he called showing AKs. No help and I was gone.

I was really annoyed afterwards having made, almost identically, this move 3 times previously that week when deep and getting bust on each occasion by a variety of hands.

My main line of thinking was can I fold AQ here or is that too negative if I want to get the chips for a FT and how much respect should I give the 3 bet here.

If I go along the lines of having to play AQ then can I call here with the intention of pushing any flop and will I have enough fold equity if he continuation bets which he will probably do most of the time.

[hi_am_chris]

Thinker, the chip leader makes a standard raise first into the pot and he has to have aq beat? with his stack i would expect him to be opening a wider range than that including hands AQ has crushed? Saying that i wasnt playing the game and dont know how frequently he was raising but i would expect he could have possibly any pair, ATs plus  and a maybe even KJ or Kq suited. Dont think theres too much wrong pushing. I dont like flat calling but u have position and could play stop and go which could get rid of a lot of small pairs on the flop even if you miss (not saying thats the best play tho)