AA fold or call ?

[WarBwastardo]

...  We"ll have to agree to disagree possibly.  

er, yes ............ but,

this comes back to the point - patience is the key.

i.e. It doesn"t matter how long it takes as long as you"re still in the tournament.

The point of being patient though is to wait for a great spot to get all your money in, this for me constitutes a great spot.

[Jon MW]

...  We"ll have to agree to disagree possibly.  

er, yes ............ but,

this comes back to the point - patience is the key.

i.e. It doesn"t matter how long it takes as long as you"re still in the tournament.

The point of being patient though is to wait for a great spot to get all your money in, this for me constitutes a great spot.

The point of a deep stack is that you don"t have to risk all your money in one pot.

[WarBwastardo]

...  We"ll have to agree to disagree possibly.  

er, yes ............ but,

this comes back to the point - patience is the key.

i.e. It doesn"t matter how long it takes as long as you"re still in the tournament.

The point of being patient though is to wait for a great spot to get all your money in, this for me constitutes a great spot.

The point of a deep stack is that you don"t have to risk all your money in one pot.

You don"t have to exactly, you can wait for the good opportunities and I peronsally think this qualifie.  For me a risk is something that is likely to turn out badly.

I"m repeating myself now. 

On a slight digression, if you did satellite into the WSOP main event, would your intention be just to try and cash or to try and actually win it?  

[coprey]

If you are at a table at the WSOP where there are multiple players pushing their stacks in the first level and you are folding AA, I dont fancy your chances for the tournament, unless of course you get moved to another table, where there is a bit more play. You have to consider that if there are these types of over- aggressive players at your table you arent going to get your opportunity to play much poker. Better to take them out, send a message to the table and accumulate a monster stack in relation to everyone else.  I dont believe many professionals would fold AA preflop, in the first 2 scenarios, and have heard of professionals such as Phil Ivey going allin, first hand, blind. I guess hes doing it for fun or a bet, or just wants to send a message to the table.

[Jon MW]

...  We"ll have to agree to disagree possibly.  

er, yes ............ but,

this comes back to the point - patience is the key.

i.e. It doesn"t matter how long it takes as long as you"re still in the tournament.

The point of being patient though is to wait for a great spot to get all your money in, this for me constitutes a great spot.

The point of a deep stack is that you don"t have to risk all your money in one pot.

You don"t have to exactly, you can wait for the good opportunities and I peronsally think this qualifie.  For me a risk is something that is likely to turn out badly.

I"m repeating myself now. 

On a slight digression, if you did satellite into the WSOP main event, would your intention be just to try and cash or to try and actually win it?  

Play each hand and each opponent as they come.

As for ambition I"d stick with the same one I had in the 2007 WSOP Razz...

(1) Don"t come last
(2) Make it to the end of level 1
(3) Make it to the dinner break

After that seems too much like planning too far in advance

[Jon MW]

If you are at a table at the WSOP where there are multiple players pushing their stacks in the first level and you are folding AA, I dont fancy your chances for the tournament,...

If they are playing like that I would expect them to take each other out and for me to be left with one player who overplays his hands to take chips off.

As for the top professionals:
Consider your EV for the hand,
Now consider that EV only matters if you play enough for the luck to even out.

The professionals are playing every year - I"m suspecting you"re not going to be.

So not only do I think that folding the AA is likely to carry a greater +EV than calling an all in with it - but I also think that you will never benefit from the +EV of playing it because you won"t play enough WSOP Main Events for the luck to even out (unless you get even luckier than being dealt them to start with and they actually hold up).

[coprey]

Jon I agree with your short term approach ie. make it to first break, dinner etc. I mean you cannot win if you dont make the Final Table, and you cannot make the final Table unless you make the dinner break etc etc however as the blinds go up you have to be willing to gamble to achieve this. That means if I get a good spot to make chips i"ll take it because that is how I am going to be able to survive. I cannot survive by folding my way through the tournament, as you well know.

If you want to have a great WSOP experience by all means fold AA in the first level.

If you are there to really go for it and try to go deep then I have to say call.

ps congrats on your Razz result, that must have been an awesome experience

[Jon MW]

... as the blinds go up you have to be willing to gamble to achieve this. That means if I get a good spot to make chips i"ll take it because that is how I am going to be able to survive. I cannot survive by folding my way through the tournament, as you well know.
...

... and as the blinds go up, I"ll take more of a risk. But you don"t have to gamble with all your chips every time.

That said, as the Razz showed - I"m better with limit.

What are the chances they could change the main event to limit, just for me?

[kinboshi]

[Jon MW]

Ok so for those who would fold AA pre flop in scenario 1, I assume without an all in by the time it gets to you, you reraise 100% with this hand or are you flatting to either keep the pot small or to set mine with AA?

Moving the analysis on.

so if it isn"t raised all in before you.

What are the different scenarios for you pre flop.

Not just scenario 1, when would you raise and when would you call - what are your aims with this hand?

(first hand so completely unknown how your opponents will play)

[Roscopiko]

My aim with AA is the exact scenarios at the start to get all/or as many as possible of the chips in pre flop when I know i am ahead.

What other aim can u have with the best hand?

[Jon MW]

The blinds are 50-100, you have 20,000 chips (2 hour clock?) First hand

You"re dealt aces.

(a) You have a raise to 300 before you (with or without a call)
(b) You have a raise to 300 and a reraise to 800 before you

Do you call or raise?
If you raise, how much do you raise to?

[WarBwastardo]

The blinds are 50-100, you have 10,000 chips (2 hour clock?) First hand

You"re dealt aces.

(a) You have a raise to 300 before you (with or without a call)
(b) You have a raise to 300 and a reraise to 800 before you

Do you call or raise?
If you raise, how much do you raise to?

You start with 20,000 in the main event don"t you?

[Jon MW]

The blinds are 50-100, you have 10,000 chips (2 hour clock?) First hand

You"re dealt aces.

(a) You have a raise to 300 before you (with or without a call)
(b) You have a raise to 300 and a reraise to 800 before you

Do you call or raise?
If you raise, how much do you raise to?

You start with 20,000 in the main event don"t you?

oh yeah

It did seem a little short

Fixed it now

[HaworthBantam]

For what it"s worth (I"m almost scared to respond), in scenarios A and B I"m calling, and in scenario C I"m probably folding.

In scenario C I don"t see the point of risking it all against 2 other players in the first level with 5 cards to come. It is, after-all, only a pair, admittedly the best preflop hand but things can change rapidly, especially with two other players in the same hand.

I have to admit to having folded aces preflop on 2 occasions. One to 3 all ins before me and one to 4 all ins before me - both times I would have lost.

Right, I"ll go take cover....