Author Topic: Wadda'ya make of this then?  (Read 14457 times)

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noble1

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Re: Wadda'ya make of this then?
« Reply #15 on: October 20, 2008, 15:11:35 PM »
Quote
think you have to fold....and wait for better position....but im guessin as my description doenst show anything amazin..i"m way off??

by good to find out...and ( so i learn...what u think of my analysis?..)..may not do this again....!!..lol


Waz1892 by joining in and discussing these types of situations,no matter how experienced you are,it is always good input as it gets you thinking and you will get an insight into how others apply logic [good or bad] to there reads.Notice i say reads as it is mostly beneficial to have some sort of read on your opponent when making these sort of calls.

quote by hi_am_chris
Quote
if he had a monster wouldnt he usually be value betting the turn rather than just shipping it in, its not like if he bets he has to go all in there.


This is a common mistake that i used to make once and that i see others do time after time [its a leak in your game if you do it] why would you when you have a monster value bet giving away the strength of your hand? in poker the idea of betting is to confuse and induce incorrect calls or folds !!  
My friend who i have been helping lately was doing this,it seems to me a more common mistake amongst intermediate skill level players, my friend was recently in a situation with AKo in the cut off with a lag on the button who used position very well and was giving my mate a torrid time coming over the top of him in the last few pots he had played. It was a six handed $1/2 nl ring game he raised $7 the button called , the flop came Ad 9h 5s my friend leads out for $12 the button calls the turn is 4c he bets $32 and the button folds,not such a mistake a lot would argue , he played the hand well sometimes i might check the turn just to mix up my game a bit but when i asked him his thought process on it he replied i didnt think that he had me beat but because of the last few pots i wanted to let him know that i had the goods................i explained to him that against this type of opponent that a check on the turn would be a better play "let him try and bluff the turn,there is no point in this situation in representing it,against this type of player and this situation a check is best,against most players the turn bet is the best option but sometimes the idea is to try and trick them" it wasnt untill i asked him his thought process that we found a leak in his game and now he is working towards fixing it with this ringing in his ears from me -
When you make a bet or raise on any street,ask yourself these questions.
What am i hoping my opponent does?
Is this bet likely to accomplish that?
What hands am i trying to get to fold?
What hands am i trying to get to call?
What hands am i trying to get to reraise?
What hand different from mine am i representing?

Mikeyboy9361

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Re: Wadda'ya make of this then?
« Reply #16 on: October 20, 2008, 16:42:06 PM »
Ask my self all those questions and then answer them in 20 seconds !!! :D. Always good to read your thoughts Noble, I don"t know how you have the time to post such detailed analysis.
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AMRN

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Re: Wadda'ya make of this then?
« Reply #17 on: October 20, 2008, 16:56:22 PM »

When you make a bet or raise on any street,ask yourself these questions.
What am i hoping my opponent does?
Is this bet likely to accomplish that?
What hands am i trying to get to fold?
What hands am i trying to get to call?
What hands am i trying to get to reraise?
What hand different from mine am i representing?


You"re dead right, and the ability to be able to answer these questions before you decide on what play to make, how to size your bet, etc, is often the difference between a losing player, a winning player, and a big winning player.   However, where I come unstuck.... is how the hell do you apply these questions and consider the answers in the hot-bed of online play. Clearly in a live game you can take a few moments to consider these, and make plays based on this level of analysis... but online with the timer ticking away it"s just not possible, and gut instinct (or plain old maths) takes over - especially if the play you are trying to analyse occurs on one of four tables you"re playing at the time.

Having just re-read this para, I"m guessing that"s why I"m just an also-ran. I assume the top online players are indeed able to carry out thiis level of analysis in a few seconds, and that"s what separates "them and us".


Waz1892

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Re: Wadda'ya make of this then?
« Reply #18 on: October 20, 2008, 19:35:10 PM »

Quote
think you have to fold....and wait for better position....but im guessin as my description doenst show anything amazin..i"m way off??

by good to find out...and ( so i learn...what u think of my analysis?..)..may not do this again....!!..lol


Waz1892 by joining in and discussing these types of situations,no matter how experienced you are,it is always good input as it gets you thinking and you will get an insight into how others apply logic [good or bad] to there reads.Notice i say reads as it is mostly beneficial to have some sort of read on your opponent when making these sort of calls.



thank-you.
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noble1

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Re: Wadda'ya make of this then?
« Reply #19 on: October 20, 2008, 20:10:36 PM »
agreed for some [most even] it is difficult online to do at first but with practice and with experience it will become 2nd nature to most people if you keep focused and follow a plan of improvement,with my friend we found one leak which now he is aware of and when a similar situation with the same type of player crops up the play will be automatic to him.
This is why i"m a great believer in reviewing games played and discussing hands and situations with friends and posting on the forums.

Here is a play i made recently - its a small blind v big blind situation, Pokerccini is a cunning tricky type who makes unorthodox plays but generally mixes it up well with solid stuff as well.He is not normally the type to limp from the small blind so my alarm bells were ringing and 22+ AKo+s AQs something in that range i was putting him on pre-flop,the previous 4 blinds battles we had i had won 3 of them reraising his raise twice pre-flop and reraising his lead on a ace flop the 3rd occasion,i pretty much felt that he thought i was yanking his chain and i was.On the flop he paused just for a split second but it was discernible [not is normal timing] , can any one guess what my thought process was at this point with the texture of the flop and with my hand?

Dealt to Robbieoz [7h 3d]
Pokerccini: calls 200
Robbieoz: checks
*** FLOP *** [2c Ah 5h]
Pokerccini: bets 400
Robbieoz: raises 400 to 800
Pokerccini: calls 400
*** TURN *** [2c Ah 5h] [4s]
Pokerccini: checks
Robbieoz: bets 2000
Pokerccini: calls 2000
*** RIVER *** [2c Ah 5h 4s] [Ks]
Pokerccini: checks
Robbieoz: bets 2400
Pokerccini: calls 1665 and is all-in
Uncalled bet (735) returned to Robbieoz
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Robbieoz: shows [7h 3d] (a straight, Ace to Five)
Pokerccini: shows [Kc Kd] (three of a kind, Kings)
Robbieoz collected 9780 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 9780 | Rake 0
Board [2c Ah 5h 4s Ks]
Seat 8: Robbieoz (big blind) showed [7h 3d] and won (9780) with a straight, Ace to Five
Seat 9: Pokerccini (small blind) showed [Kc Kd] and lost with three of a kind, Kings

« Last Edit: October 20, 2008, 20:56:27 PM by noble1 »

Mikeyboy9361

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Re: Wadda'ya make of this then?
« Reply #20 on: October 21, 2008, 12:37:02 PM »
Okay here goes, I don"t usually get involved in these analysis situations, but I will give this a go.
You have already stated that he is a tricky player, but solid and you have illustrated the hands that you have put him on and that the limp was suspicious.
Therefore you had to think that the Ace may have improved his hand, and as such the minimum bet was possibly a trap, so you had to raise in an effort to find out where you were, his call tells you he has something. The turn obviously doesn"t help his hand, but fills your gut shot, happy days. Pokercinni doesn"t put you on an Ace, as he feels you would have raised pre flop, and he still thinks he is ahead, and he is still trapping. You are no longer scared of a possible ace, and are pretty sure you are winning this hand, so your pot sized bet of 2000 is fairly standard, as you feel if he has a big Ace he is going to call. The King on the river doesn"t change anything for you, the possible flush has missed and even though it may have improved his hand, you are now sure you have the nuts. I think his check on the end is now not to get you to bet, I think he is scared of the straight, as you have indicated strength, and is hoping to get out of the pot with a win and something back if he loses. Your bet putting him all in is again a straight forward move for you. And with trips he is pot committed and has to call.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2008, 12:39:29 PM by Mikeyboy9361 »
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noble1

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Re: Wadda'ya make of this then?
« Reply #21 on: October 21, 2008, 15:49:58 PM »
thanks Mikeyboy9361


Therefore you had to think that the Ace may have improved his hand, and as such the minimum bet was possibly a trap, so you had to raise in an effort to find out where you were, his call tells you he has something. The turn obviously doesn"t help his hand, but fills your gut shot


your anaylisis is pretty much ther mikey, yes it was a flyer at a trap that i sometimes make in position but i try to do it with a read,the reason i did it was stack to blinds i was about 26bb , not great but still with some play.Pokercinni only had around 10bb left and tried to slow play [KK] it to gain chips [mistake] when the ace came the pause made me pretty sure he didnt have it so that narrowed my read of his possible range to 22-KK my min raise on the flop was an attempt to confuse Pokercinni and to fish if he had hit a set,i use the minraise only when the blinds are high relative to the stack sizes , the raise also i hoped would buy me 2 free cards to hit a hidden straight with Pokercinni not sure if i was playing a raggy ace or that i had some sort of draw or just a pair like himself,when the turn card was my bingo card i had to think how to extract the rest of Pokercinni"s chips.When he checked the turn my turn bet was designed to hide my straight as Pokercinni would now mostly discount a flush draw from my range as he would think i would take a free card and it would make A3o or 34h look unlikely holdings, but i figured he might peg me for 66 77 a bluff and maybe still a raggy ace -A6,7,8 maybe 22 55 44 but with him only having around 9bb left i favoured the bet would look more like a bluff and that he would check raise me and go all in.He only smooth called which was strange and the check call on the river was as well, he later told me he had wished he had folded as he was stumped as to what i had on the turn,AND hoped i was bluffing lol .... but he never explained why he just called...

I make plays like this in position when deeper stacked as well when heads up in a pot when i read weakness in my opponents as sometimes [not very frequently] i will play any 2 cards in position and if i choose to check , call or raise when i have a gutshot it does tend to catch people out.If they re-raise me on the flops or bet heavily on the turn i have a hand i can throw away easily also it works the other way as now other players at the table now know i"m capable of re-raising weak holdings which is handy if i do catch something stronger.
Thats pretty much how i think through this sort of situation along with reads and timing tells , hope it helps you in some way [either trying it or dismissing it :)  ]
« Last Edit: October 21, 2008, 17:01:44 PM by noble1 »

hi_am_chris

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Re: Wadda'ya make of this then?
« Reply #22 on: October 21, 2008, 16:57:48 PM »
how many chips did u start the hand with?

noble1

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Re: Wadda'ya make of this then?
« Reply #23 on: October 21, 2008, 17:08:23 PM »
10465 chips around 26bb

Swinebag

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Re: Wadda'ya make of this then?
« Reply #24 on: October 21, 2008, 17:09:45 PM »

the raise also i hoped would buy me 2 free cards to hit a hidden straight


I love this play!
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noble1

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Re: Wadda'ya make of this then?
« Reply #25 on: October 21, 2008, 18:23:00 PM »
as some of you might suspect i do admire annette15 on the way she approaches poker [experimenting] and her thought process are intresting.
here is a link to 3 situations and a insight into how she breaks down each scenario presented to her.

http://www.insidepokermag.co.uk/poker/strategy/7515/hand_analysis.html

Waz1892

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Re: Wadda'ya make of this then?
« Reply #26 on: November 21, 2008, 19:03:01 PM »

as some of you might suspect i do admire annette15 on the way she approaches poker [experimenting] and her thought process are intresting.
here is a link to 3 situations and a insight into how she breaks down each scenario presented to her.

http://www.insidepokermag.co.uk/poker/strategy/7515/hand_analysis.html


I can"t get link to work?..anyone else?
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noble1

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Re: Wadda'ya make of this then?
« Reply #27 on: November 21, 2008, 20:42:57 PM »
seems fine ..