Is this a cooler?

[Roscopiko]

Just hit the cash i"m 30/304, then this happens:

PokerStars Game #22334196018: Tournament #122500801, $10+$1 Hold'em No Limit - Level XVII (500/1000) - 2008/11/25 0:14:07 CET [2008/11/24 18:14:07 ET]
Table "122500801 205" 9-max Seat #4 is the button
Seat 1: dac12345 (27676 in chips)
Seat 2: utascha32 (23067 in chips)
Seat 3: hammer 1889 (14740 in chips)
Seat 4: sarzy25 (15440 in chips)
Seat 5: roscopiko (44334 in chips)
Seat 6: t-bagng (45882 in chips)
Seat 7: sumo73 (16041 in chips)
Seat 8: EasyCompany5 (2540 in chips) is sitting out
Seat 9: 55treef (14684 in chips)
dac12345: posts the ante 125
utascha32: posts the ante 125
hammer 1889: posts the ante 125
sarzy25: posts the ante 125
roscopiko: posts the ante 125
t-bagng: posts the ante 125
sumo73: posts the ante 125
EasyCompany5: posts the ante 125
55treef: posts the ante 125
roscopiko: posts small blind 500
t-bagng: posts big blind 1000
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to roscopiko [:: ::]
sumo73: folds
EasyCompany5: folds
55treef: folds
dac12345: folds
utascha32: raises 2000 to 3000
hammer 1889: calls 3000
sarzy25: folds
roscopiko: calls 2500
t-bagng: calls 2000
*** FLOP *** [:: :: ::]
roscopiko: checks
t-bagng: checks
utascha32: checks
hammer 1889: checks
*** TURN *** [:: :: ::] [::]
roscopiko: bets 3000
t-bagng: calls 3000
utascha32: calls 3000
hammer 1889: calls 3000
*** RIVER *** [:: :: :: ::] [:ac:]
roscopiko: bets 1000
t-bagng: raises 8000 to 9000
utascha32: folds
hammer 1889: calls 8615 and is all-in
roscopiko: raises 29209 to 38209 and is all-in
t-bagng: calls 29209
*** SHOW DOWN ***
roscopiko: shows [:: ::] (three of a kind, Nines)
t-bagng: shows [:: ::] (a straight, Five to Nine)
t-bagng collected 59188 from side pot
hammer 1889: shows [:ah: :kh:] (a pair of Aces)
t-bagng collected 50970 from main pot
PONDER6 is connected
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 110158 Main pot 50970. Side pot 59188. | Rake 0

Any thoughts on this play appreciated thanks

[Swinebag]

You have to check that flop and be looking at the best way of getting as many chips as possible afterwards. The turn means you are only losing to 68, but what are the chances??

I"d stack off here!

cooler IMO!

[HaworthBantam]

I have to admit that I wouldn"t have checked the flop - whether my bet would have gotten rid of the guy with the up and down though, I"m not sure. Possibly the same outcome whatever....

[Swinebag]

actually in hindsight, with 4 in the pot, there is a good chance that the original raiser will not c-bet, so a lead on the flop is probably best here.

I still would have stacked off though!

[Mikeyboy9361]

I presume you checked in order to check raise, and with that flop who would blame you, but I think with the pot already about 13000, I would have been betting and taking it down there and then with a 10000 bet. I think you would have got Tbag off it with that bet even though he had the up and down, he would have been committing 25% of his stack on a draw. If he doesn"t fold then he pushes, and again you are happy......But yeah a cooler

[Roscopiko]

I presume you checked in order to check raise, and with that flop who would blame you, but I think with the pot already about 13000, I would have been betting and taking it down there and then with a 10000 bet. I think you would have got Tbag off it with that bet even though he had the up and down, he would have been committing 25% of his stack on a draw. If he doesn"t fold then he pushes, and again you are happy......But yeah a cooler

Not sure I would ever bet this flop cos its so massive for my hand and I only get paid if someone has an over pair.  The worst that happens is they all check and I give them a chance to catch up.  Defo dont want to really take it down here, I want as much action as i can get.

I make the small bet on the turn to make it look like I"m just representing small cards (I have stolen alot of pots on the flop and turn and been very active at the table) and trying to steal the pot. 3 callers was a bit wierd but I"m still happy to take the action and build the pot convinced I am still a mile ahead and possible against a lower set.

The ace on the river was really the bingo card for me so the 1k bet was to try and represent a really weak blocker bet and get someone to come over the top. When the BB comes over the top, I really still thought I was a mile ahead and that he had make 2 pair with Ax.  The other all-in is neither here or there. Cant really have anyone on AA unless they have taken a crazy line.

So the problem now is to call or raise.  To be honest with what I said above I think i"m against 2 pair from the BB and he has to call a shove with 2 pair or a lower set. I think a call is too passive in this spot.

Fair play to the BB he played the hand perfect and got all my chips from it. Have no problem with his play just one in a series recently where I have made the money well stacked only to bust v the only player who can take me out.

Just thought this was an interesting hand.  Cheers for your comments

[kinboshi]

I bet the flop.  You want to grow the pot, and a check doesn"t help you do this.  What would you do with an overpair here?  What about bottom two pair?

I"d try and bet the same way with any of those hands.

[AMRN]

Going to a 4 way flop, it"s highly likely that someone is going to play with you if you lead out - it"s not often that you flop top set, and you really want to be getting the pot as big as you can here - it"s a **** or bust hand IMO.   The only had that you would be worried about is 68, and it"s highly likely that anyone holding 68 is not going to fold to a bet on the flop, so you should be charging him for his draw. When he hits it, it"s game over for you - there"s just no getting away from the hand whether you"ve bet the flop or not.

Online this is a surefire finishing hand. Playing live, you might be able to pick up a tell and put down your hand, but I suggest even that would be highly unlikely.

Cooler.

[noble1]

ok i have some points but all are based on this being a low buy in mtt and your stack size and position / situation.

You are out of position with 44bbs with raises  of 3x by utascha [20bb left behind] and a call by hammer [11bb left behind].

1st off my thoughts on hammers weak call makes me spew as the guy should of re-raised all in trying to take down the blinds/antes and putting pressure on utascha,hammer only had 14bb"s which with AK is an auto shove.

Right back to the situation,if i had your stack at this stage of the mtt [and hopefully a fairly solid image] i would of re-raised this spot to 11 to 12000 putting pressure on utascha and hammer.There would be only t-bagng behind who can only re-raise or call with a strong hand and if utascha and hammer were to re-raise all in i would have great pot odds to call with no chance of getting knocked out if i were to lose [i"d have 21bb left which is still plenty to build up again]
But judging the stack sizes i"d presume pre-flop that utascha would fold and hammer with only 11bb"s left would put himself all in [again a good spot,nice pot]

Either way the situation goes with your STACK the re-raise is the best play,utascha
is being forced to fold or re-raise and hammer is being asked if he wants to put in his remaining 11bb"s.If they both fold you win a nice pot anyhows.

This is a situation for me because of blinds/antes and opponent stack sizes [and yours] that you use the weapon of your stack size and pound it into them.


Just a thought on your check post-flop, i agree along with AMRN and Kinboshi that you should always lead into your set,the benefits of this being that you are growing the pot and getting information as to what cards the villians are holding [easier to narrow a range if they call or re-raise]
When out of position if you always lead on the flop with all your draws,top pairs,2nd pairs,bluffs etc etc it makes you very hard to read and your opponents have no option to check behind for a free card.[think about the benefits like inducing folds or bluffs you can pick off playing this way]

anyhows i hope my thoughts help you in some way.

gg
noble

[LongshanksED]

to be honest raising pre flop would"ve been best idea but hindsight is 20/20 and i doubt i would"ve raised, just called the bet also

with 4 others in the pot, when the flop is dealt, i personally would have made a bet (perhaps half to 3/4 the pot) and if someone raises then get it all in problem is that the BB would probably came for the ride with his open ended straight unless you went all in on the flop - but then you"d get no action

you played it the same way i wouldve and probably throwing the laptop out the window and started shouting that internet poker is rigged

[noble1]

[LongshanksED]

the way i read it as there has been a raise and a call from 2 medium stacks in middle position - and every chance they have over cards to the 9"s

should the flop come out with face cards and no 9, i"d still bet out but should you get a call or raise from one or any of the other players then it could give you a chance to get out cheaply and only lose about 1/4 of my stack instead of half

this maybe a bit defensive, especially for late stages of an MTT but looking at blinds and johns stack then there is still plenty time to take advantage of attacking the medium and shorter stacks

as you say noble - re raising is a viable option and should you lose the hand to Utascha, you still have 20BB"s but also the M is now down to approx only 12, should i be able to get away from my hand if i think im beat my M is around the 25 mark - far healthier


just my opinion

[noble1]

i understand your thinking to a certain point LongshanksED and i would agree with your play in the earlier stages when it is deeper stacked and the blinds to stack size are a lot lower.
The villians in are not both medium stacks , one has 20bb left behind , the other is short with only 11bb behind.
The point you make about trying to attack small and medium stacks later on due to plenty of time left is for me at this stage of an mtt a mistake a lot of tight weak players make,the late stages in mtts is where the strong win and the not so strong wither away finishing early to mid money,this is a great spot to play strong not weak and call.
With the re-raise and trying to manipulate stack sizes like in this situation you are giving yourself a great chance of significantly increasing your stack and to further increase your opportunity"s later on to bully and steal and be able to take a hit or two.
If it goes wrong you also leave yourself 21bb"s and still have a great chance of re-building.
Survival is great in the early to mid stages but in the late parts opportunity"s like this are few and far and taking advantage of them is what separates the winners and also rans in tournaments.
With the raise and call ahead even if they have over cards John is still ahead,at this point you have to start taking a flip or two to be able to win an mtt.
Also there is great chance the re-raise will take the pot down anyhows but also guards against John being KO by t-bagng , if he was sitting on a big pair in the bb if he re-raises 99 is easy to get away from,if he trys to play them tricky and smooth call AA KK QQ JJ then John will still be able to play post-flop in the knowledge that t-bagng has a strong hand and be able to adjust accordingly.

[noble1]

Just thought this was an interesting hand.  Cheers for your comments

yes John it is a great hand/situation to post,i just wish there were more like it.

[Roscopiko]

Right back to the situation,if i had your stack at this stage of the mtt [and hopefully a fairly solid image] i would of re-raised this spot to 11 to 12000 putting pressure on utascha and hammer.There would be only t-bagng behind who can only re-raise or call with a strong hand and if utascha and hammer were to re-raise all in i would have great pot odds to call with no chance of getting knocked out if i were to lose [i"d have 21bb left which is still plenty to build up again]
But judging the stack sizes i"d presume pre-flop that utascha would fold and hammer with only 11bb"s left would put himself all in [again a good spot,nice pot]

Thanks as always for the excellent input noble. The main issues in the hand are pre flop and the flop so here my thinking.

Yes we are into the money and I"m now looking to take my decent stack to a FT stack especially in the just post bubble loose play period.

OK preflop we have the bet and call. I am SB and out of position with 99.  My table image to be honest is very LAG as I have been totally abusing the table around the bubble and built my stack nicely from this and have received comments from some players about getting caught out soon. I have basically opened every unopened pot from 2 off the button or better for the last 10 or so orbits.  BB being the biggest loser in these exchanges.

My main thinking in calling rather than raising here was that because the opener has only has ~20BB (and is granite like (opened 5% in 100+ hands) and caller has only ~10BB if I raise the pot here I am almost certain to get shoved on by one of these 2 and fold to it.  I am therefore only calling to take it away on later streets or flop big.  BB is also playing the same game and has been calling raises pretty light to steal them on the flop.

I can definitely see the points made about firing on the flop but to be honest my thought my hand was too big to do so.  The flop won"t have hit any AK, AQ type hands and no realistic draws are there.  BB is a serial better and this flop gives him the chance to represent low cards from the BB. He checks....boooo.

So if original better or caller has an overpair they are betting here everytime to thin the field, they check.....double boo.  BUT i am still confident I am miles ahead.  The checks give me as much info as a bet would in narrowing ranges. Raiser and caller must have KQ+ type hands and are scared of betting because BB is a station and will but them with 1 pair.  So BB range is my real problem as its ATC.